On Sun, 31 Jul 2016 07:31:00 +, hellekin wrote in message
<869e8fb2-2f17-2331-a443-9e2f4658c...@dyne.org>:
> On 07/30/2016 07:37 PM, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
> >
> > ..2 wise things we can use: the Full 4 Geneva Conventions offer the
> > legal text of the 4 Conventions and its 3 Protocols Additio
On 07/30/2016 07:45 PM, Rick Moen wrote:
>
> It doesn't hurt to just _ask_ Joey his perspective.
>
I did already, as I mentioned earlier in this thread.
For the record, here is the content of my message to him:
*
Subject: a toxic document?
Hello
I'm working with the Devuan project, and dr
On 07/30/2016 07:37 PM, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
>
> ..2 wise things we can use: the Full 4 Geneva Conventions offer the
> legal text of the 4 Conventions and its 3 Protocols Additional, e.g.
> Article 87 Duty of commanders ...
>
I'm sorry but I'm not willing to click external links to military
instit
Quoting Hendrik Boom (hend...@topoi.pooq.com):
> It's possible that he considers toxicity is inherent in the mere
> presence of a constitution. Maybe countries need constitutions. Maybe
> systems of software just need forking.
It doesn't hurt to just _ask_ Joey his perspective.
It might ta
On Sat, 30 Jul 2016 11:18:09 -0400, Steve wrote in message
<20160730111809.17c29...@mydesk.domain.cxm>:
> On Sat, 30 Jul 2016 10:50:24 +0200
> Jaromil wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 30 Jul 2016, aitor_czr wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 07/29/2016 08:53 PM, Hendrik Boom
> > > wrote:
> > > >Can we g
On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 06:35:39AM +, hellekin wrote:
> On 07/29/2016 12:10 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> >
> > Can we get Joey Hess to review it?
> >
>
> I sent him a message on IRC and by email including the draft's URL. But
> I don't know him personally, so I won't insist. If you're friend
On Sat, 30 Jul 2016 10:50:24 +0200
Jaromil wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Jul 2016, aitor_czr wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On 07/29/2016 08:53 PM, Hendrik Boom
> > wrote:
> > >Can we get Joey Hess to review it?
> > >
> > >-- hendrik
> >
> > I don't know him, but i think that he would not oppose it :)
>
On Sat, 30 Jul 2016, aitor_czr wrote:
>
>
> On 07/29/2016 08:53 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> >Can we get Joey Hess to review it?
> >
> >-- hendrik
>
> I don't know him, but i think that he would not oppose it :)
yes, I think it would be a very healthy iteration for us, to have his
review. many
On 07/29/2016 12:10 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote:
>
> Can we get Joey Hess to review it?
>
I sent him a message on IRC and by email including the draft's URL. But
I don't know him personally, so I won't insist. If you're friend with
him and want to poke him, you're welcome. But as Steve said, we're
Quoting emnin...@riseup.net (emnin...@riseup.net):
> Hi Rick!
Cheerful greetings!
> > I see all of them as being
> > problems, because they're all managed as CADT-style projects
> > (unstable, forever being EOLed and rewritten from scratch, etc.),
> > create problems for other codebases, and col
Am Wed, 27 Jul 2016 12:00:01 +
schrieb Rick Moen :
Hi Rick!
> I see all of them as being
> problems, because they're all managed as CADT-style projects
> (unstable, forever being EOLed and rewritten from scratch, etc.),
> create problems for other codebases, and collectively form a hideous
>
On 07/29/2016 08:53 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote:
Can we get Joey Hess to review it?
-- hendrik
I don't know him, but i think that he would not oppose it :)
Aitor.
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mail
Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):
> It was a corporate LUG. Kill the LUG, every cent in the treasury must
> go to a 501C3, so they'd be starting with not a nickel to their name.
I suppose that would do it.
You may know that I maintain the Linux User Group HOWTO for the Linux
Docume
On Fri, 29 Jul 2016 11:44:17 -0700
Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):
>
> > True story. As one of ten founders of a LUG in 1999, and
> > concerned about some future "evil group" "kidnapping" the LUG, I
> > convinced everyone to put a very difficult quorum requirem
History neatly provides some fine examples where the quest for
simplicity to explain the complex is a sure sign of human
achievement/intelligence.
I will mention only three such instances:
a) The quest among the world's best physicists to complete the
standard model which is a generalisation attem
Le 29/07/2016 12:05, hellekin a écrit :
As the
Shadoks say: "if there's a problem, there's a solution. If there's no
solution, then there's no problem."
The opposite is true for sure: If there is no problem, then there
is no solution; if there is a solution, then there is a problem :-)
Quoting Edward Bartolo (edb...@gmail.com):
> Nuances?! If it is a subtle difference, it can usually be ignored. Are
> you trying to impress me? If that is the case, I am well past the age
> of surprise.
You're right, my mistake. That wasn't a nuance. You actually missed
the _entirety_ of what I
Rich Meon wrote:
<<
Seriously, now? Isn't this just a bit childish?
> For a "process-person" to claim publishing a manifesto (Debian Social
> Contract) and then, unexpectedly, stressing "They do what they think
> is best, and claim it best meets the needs of
> their users and the free software c
Quoting Edward Bartolo (edb...@gmail.com):
> Rich Meon wrote:
Seriously, now? Isn't this just a bit childish?
> For a "process-person" to claim publishing a manifesto (Debian Social
> Contract) and then, unexpectedly, stressing "They do what they think
> is best, and claim it best meets the ne
Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):
> True story. As one of ten founders of a LUG in 1999, and
> concerned about some future "evil group" "kidnapping" the LUG, I
> convinced everyone to put a very difficult quorum requirement into the
> constitution. Everyone was excited about the new
On Fri, 29 Jul 2016 08:10:40 -0400
Hendrik Boom wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 10:05:20AM +, hellekin wrote:
> > I'm very much concerned that our own Devuan Constitution inherit the
> > "toxicity" that Joey Hess interpreted in the Debian Constitution,
> > and that's why I drafted one that
On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 10:05:20AM +, hellekin wrote:
>
> Joey Hess in his departing email mentioned that The Debian Constitution
> "is a toxic document" [0], although he didn't say why exactly (and
> didn't reply to my inquiry about it so far, which I can understand.)
>
> Nevertheless, I thi
On 07/29/2016 07:28 AM, Edward Bartolo wrote:
>
> According to you, voters vote for a political party basing their vote
> on the party's electoral manifesto, then suddenly when the party wins
> the government, they can be told the government does what they think
> is best, and claim it best meets
Rich Meon wrote:
<<
Quoting Edward Bartolo (edb...@gmail.com):
> The above quote clearly contradicts the scope of Debian Social Contract.
> https://www.debian.org/social_contract
Ummm...
> Item no: 4 is in contradiction of what you are claiming.
>
> Quote from Debian Social Contract:
> <<
> Our
On 07/29/2016 06:43 AM, Rick Moen wrote:
Quoting Rowland Penny (rpenny241...@gmail.com):
It is a very stupid organisation that doesn't listen to its users,
you can make the best thing in the world (and systemd certainly
isn't that), but if a lot of your users don't want it, you are in
trouble.
Quoting Edward Bartolo (edb...@gmail.com):
> The above quote clearly contradicts the scope of Debian Social Contract.
> https://www.debian.org/social_contract
Ummm...
> Item no: 4 is in contradiction of what you are claiming.
>
> Quote from Debian Social Contract:
> <<
> Our priorities are our
Quoting Rowland Penny (rpenny241...@gmail.com):
> It is a very stupid organisation that doesn't listen to its users,
> you can make the best thing in the world (and systemd certainly
> isn't that), but if a lot of your users don't want it, you are in
> trouble.
And this is because all 'organisati
On Thu, 28 Jul 2016 11:37:48 -0700
Rick Moen wrote:
> Thus, I'm rather surprised that some members (and ejected ex-members,
> like Steve Litt) of debian-users seriously expected protracted
> lobbying by them as non-members of the project was any sort of
> pragmatic plan.
When I was excommunica
Hi,
Rick Moen wrote:
<<
It would be pretty much normal and expected for the Debian Project. It
has always made it pretty obvious that it's a community of developers
who run it to serve their own perceived needs. And that's pretty much
inevitable, given its parliamentary structure and governance
On 28/07/16 19:37, Rick Moen wrote:
It would be pretty much normal and expected for the Debian Project. It
has always made it pretty obvious that it's a community of developers
who run it to serve their own perceived needs. And that's pretty much
inevitable, given its parliamentary structure an
Quoting Rob Owens (robowen...@gmail.com):
> I would have to say no. I was on debian-user, and saw no poll. There was
> a lot of discussion, and the anti-systemd folks were largely ignored or
> told "go away, you're bothering us". I subscribed to debian-devel to
> monitor and discuss the situati
On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 12:00 AM, Simon Walter wrote:
> On 07/26/2016 12:28 PM, Brad Campbell wrote:
>
>> On 26/07/16 10:27, Simon Walter wrote:
>>
>> Is that really the case? Did the Debian leadership do a poll to find out
>>> what their users wanted and who were their typical users?
>>> Desktop
On Wed, 27 Jul 2016 02:41:39 -0700
Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting Simon Walter (si...@gikaku.com):
>
> > What I don't like is tight coupling.
>
> I'm with you on that. This is why I see the problem as being pretty
> much the entire Freedesktop.org 'stack', e.g., upower, udisks2, D-Bus,
> udev, a
On Wed, 27 Jul 2016 13:57:55 +0900
Simon Walter wrote:
> What I don't like is tight coupling.
BANG! Seven little words tell the whole story.
Arguments, intellectualization, technical oneupsmanship, and just plain
nonsense, all made unnecessary by seven little words.
Thank you Simon!
SteveT
Quoting Simon Walter (si...@gikaku.com):
> What I don't like is tight coupling.
I'm with you on that. This is why I see the problem as being pretty
much the entire Freedesktop.org 'stack', e.g., upower, udisks2, D-Bus,
udev, and all the rest -- not just systemd. I see all of them as being
probl
Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):
> I maintain that, for practical purposes, the preceding quote from dasein
> is completely true and not at all loose or rhetorical excess. Let's
> replace "init system" with "wheel" and "systemd" with "a car":
Your vocabulary word for the day: 'Syn
On 07/27/2016 01:57 PM, Simon Walter wrote:
On 07/27/2016 01:54 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
On Tue, 26 Jul 2016 19:10:00 -0700
Rick Moen wrote:
Quoting Simon Walter (si...@gikaku.com):
On 07/27/2016 01:56 AM, Rick Moen wrote:
Quoting Go Linux (goli...@yahoo.com):
This is a must read on the p
On 07/27/2016 01:54 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
On Tue, 26 Jul 2016 19:10:00 -0700
Rick Moen wrote:
Quoting Simon Walter (si...@gikaku.com):
On 07/27/2016 01:56 AM, Rick Moen wrote:
Quoting Go Linux (goli...@yahoo.com):
This is a must read on the politics and votes that ensured a
systemd future
On Tue, 26 Jul 2016 19:10:00 -0700
Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting Simon Walter (si...@gikaku.com):
>
> > On 07/27/2016 01:56 AM, Rick Moen wrote:
> > >Quoting Go Linux (goli...@yahoo.com):
> > >
> > >>This is a must read on the politics and votes that ensured a
> > >>systemd future for debian:
>
Quoting Simon Walter (si...@gikaku.com):
> On 07/27/2016 01:56 AM, Rick Moen wrote:
> >Quoting Go Linux (goli...@yahoo.com):
> >
> >>This is a must read on the politics and votes that ensured a systemd future
> >>for debian:
> >>http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=120652
> >
> >To my as
On 07/27/2016 01:56 AM, Rick Moen wrote:
Quoting Go Linux (goli...@yahoo.com):
This is a must read on the politics and votes that ensured a systemd future for
debian:
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=120652
To my astonishment and pleasure, I found this well argued, reasonable,
a
Quoting Go Linux (goli...@yahoo.com):
> This is a must read on the politics and votes that ensured a systemd future
> for debian:
> http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=120652
To my astonishment and pleasure, I found this well argued, reasonable,
and a good effort to cast light on a com
On Tue, 7/26/16, Rick Moen wrote:
Subject: Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news
To: dng@lists.dyne.org
Date: Tuesday, July 26, 2016, 4:09 AM
Quoting Simon Walter (si...@gikaku.com):
> Did the Debian leadership do a poll to find out what their users
> wanted and who were their typical users?
Le 26/07/2016 09:27, Edward Bartolo a écrit :
Simon Walker wrote:
<<
Here's the thing: most users will be entirely happy with fully
uncustomized systemd. It will suspend your laptop if you close the
lid, and even give your download manager veto power. I fully support
Debian's decision to use syst
On Tue, 26 Jul 2016 13:52:32 +0200, Stephan wrote in message
<20160726t134403.ga.9b7e6.s...@fsing.rootsland.net>:
> By the way, the systemd-shim package was orphaned in Debian (bug
> #832508). Neither the current maintainers nor upstream are interested
> in it anymore.
..can we use it (at least
- Original Message -
From: "Simon Walter"
To:
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 10:27 PM
Subject: Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news
On 07/26/2016 08:03 AM, Adam Borowski wrote:
On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 10:06:09PM +, hellekin wrote:
On 07/25/2016 06:07 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
On 26/07/16 03:27, Simon Walter wrote:
>
> I have a question about what Simon Richter said on his
> blog(http://www.simonrichter.eu/blog/2016-03-03-why-sysvinit.html):
>
> "Here's the thing: most users will be entirely happy with fully
> uncustomized systemd. It will suspend your laptop if you c
On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 02:09:42AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
I personally wish there _had_ been pondering of a guiding plan at this
point -- and that the Project had decided to dump GNOME, which would
have made the original problem go away. Unfortunately, that was not the
Maybe this problem, but
On 07/26/2016 06:09 PM, Rick Moen wrote:
Quoting Simon Walter (si...@gikaku.com):
Did the Debian leadership do a poll to find out what their users
wanted and who were their typical users?
To the based of my recollection, no.
To be clear, in the blog passage you quoted, Simon Richter (whoever
Quoting Simon Walter (si...@gikaku.com):
> Did the Debian leadership do a poll to find out what their users
> wanted and who were their typical users?
To the based of my recollection, no.
To be clear, in the blog passage you quoted, Simon Richter (whoever _he_
is) _didn't assert_ that Debian P
On 07/26/2016 04:27 PM, Edward Bartolo wrote:
Simon Walker wrote:
<<
Here's the thing: most users will be entirely happy with fully
uncustomized systemd. It will suspend your laptop if you close the
lid, and even give your download manager veto power. I fully support
Debian's decision to use syst
On 07/26/2016 03:45 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
On Tue, 26 Jul 2016 11:27:20 +0900
Simon Walter wrote:
We need to drive a wedge into the FOSS community and separate the
desktop users from the professionals. I am sorry to be divisive, but
the water is under the bridge and the damage has already been
Simon Walker wrote:
<<
Here's the thing: most users will be entirely happy with fully
uncustomized systemd. It will suspend your laptop if you close the
lid, and even give your download manager veto power. I fully support
Debian's decision to use systemd as the default init for new installs,
becaus
Steve Litt wrote:
> I wouldn't split it desktop/server or desktop/professional. It didn't
> split that way. Very truthfully, it split smart guys vs dumb guys, with
> the dumb ones remaining in Debian.
I think you're conflating being intelligent with having values
similar to your own.
Debian and o
Le 26/07/2016 04:27, Simon Walter a écrit :
"Here's the thing: most users will be entirely happy with fully
uncustomized systemd. It will suspend your laptop if you close the
lid, and even give your download manager veto power. I fully support
Debian's decision to use systemd as the default ini
On Tue, 26 Jul 2016 11:27:20 +0900
Simon Walter wrote:
> We need to drive a wedge into the FOSS community and separate the
> desktop users from the professionals. I am sorry to be divisive, but
> the water is under the bridge and the damage has already been done.
You might find it interesting
Friends,
This is the most determining battle. If Devuan wins, nothing will defeat us.
Edward
--
Those who abuse me will be banned immediately from my email account.
Here, I am communicating with supposedly intelligent adults who are
responsible for their actions.
___
On 07/26/2016 12:28 PM, Brad Campbell wrote:
On 26/07/16 10:27, Simon Walter wrote:
Is that really the case? Did the Debian leadership do a poll to find out
what their users wanted and who were their typical users?
Desktop/personal vs. server/professional?
yes/no?
Did they consult their pac
On 26/07/16 10:27, Simon Walter wrote:
Is that really the case? Did the Debian leadership do a poll to find out
what their users wanted and who were their typical users?
Desktop/personal vs. server/professional? Did they consult their package
survey stats?
I wasn't participating in those discus
On 07/26/2016 08:03 AM, Adam Borowski wrote:
On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 10:06:09PM +, hellekin wrote:
On 07/25/2016 06:07 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
This is a screenshot of my buddy's kernel menuconfig:
https://sanitarium.net/x.png
Support for init systems, system and service managers:
[*] Open
On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 10:06:09PM +, hellekin wrote:
> On 07/25/2016 06:07 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
> > This is a screenshot of my buddy's kernel menuconfig:
> >
> > https://sanitarium.net/x.png
>
> Support for init systems, system and service managers:
>
> [*] OpenRC, runit and other script b
On 07/25/2016 06:07 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> This is a screenshot of my buddy's kernel menuconfig:
>
> https://sanitarium.net/x.png
>
Support for init systems, system and service managers:
[*] OpenRC, runit and other script based systems and managers
[ ] systemd
This looks like a h
On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 09:41:44PM +0200, Adam Borowski wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 02:07:07PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> > This is a screenshot of my buddy's kernel menuconfig:
> >
> > https://sanitarium.net/x.png
>
> Whose kernel tree is this?
>
> Not in Linus', and googling that phrase s
On 25-07-16 20:07, Steve Litt wrote:
Hi all,
This is a screenshot of my buddy's kernel menuconfig:
https://sanitarium.net/x.png
SteveT
Steve Litt
July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 02:07:07PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> This is a screenshot of my buddy's kernel menuconfig:
>
> https://sanitarium.net/x.png
Whose kernel tree is this?
Not in Linus', and googling that phrase shows nothing.
--
An imaginary friend squared is a real enemy.
___
Hi all,
This is a screenshot of my buddy's kernel menuconfig:
https://sanitarium.net/x.png
SteveT
Steve Litt
July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
___
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