Thank you Wayne, and thank you David, This site has been very useful and actually quite entertaining to read at times. I believe a lot of the "intimidation" in oneself comes from a preconceived notion of how a particular person may react. For instance, if I pounded it in my head that if I was only going to receive a belittling, or a sense of inferiority when I asked a question from a superior, or rather someone of higher academic stature, then why would I ask the question in the first place. It is imperative to keep a strong mind in the sense of not letting yourself become intimidated, especially when you’re trying to excel yourself, your education, your future. I was an undergraduate not all that long ago, and the one thing that I learned very quickly was just that. If you become intimidated, you become insecure in your abilities. I quickly overcame that fear, and pushed forward. I have a master's in biology now, and until recently was employed full-time as a park ranger. My finance was offered a better position, so we moved. I am now looking for work, and I am using the ideals that pushed me forward and keep pushing me forward. I am not afraid to ask questions, especially from those higher on the so-called "totem pole." It is the only way that I know how to network with people, which I have found is one of, if not the best, "tool" that one can use to further career (or academic) opportunities. All in all, particular people have different ways of expressing themselves. I take criticism as a good thing, but I also take it with a grain-of-salt at times as well. To those who are in the beginnings of their college careers, keep your head up and continue to ask questions and you will excel! -Jason
“Wild beasts and birds are by right not the property merely of people who are alive today, but the property of unknown generations whose belongings we have no right to squander.” President Theodore Roosevelt From: Wayne Tyson <landr...@cox.net> To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 10:18 PM Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Fear and Intimidation Ecolog: Well, I asked for it, but I must confess that the (almost entirely) off-list responses did little to settle my nerves on the subject. I accept Ecolog for what it is, and am unconcerned about what it is not--in the sense that I am very grateful for the service that David provides, not only free, but too often without thanks.* I hope that this (entirely unscientific) and highly abbreviated sampling of responses will advance everyone's awareness and stimulate further thinking and comment concerning this concern. I continue to welcome off-list discussion as well as on-list discussion and hope that those who do fear to post will find a way to interact with fellow students of the phenomenon of ecology (of whatever kind, level, and degree)* and the myriad of issues attached thereto, either on Ecolog or by direct communication in some kind of ad-hoc email circuit. I suppose anyone could act as an off-list coordinator for hot or taboo topics, to shield the uneasy from being archived, especially since it is widely considered unethical to quote email statements with attribution. However, this would deprive the Ecolog Forum (except for the willing participants) of the content. I guess there might be some way to use pseudonyms? In the small sampling of off-list comments that follow there are some direct and indirect suggestions as to how the problem might be mitigated to some extent. Any other ideas? I'm in favor of all being held to the same standard of intellectual/scientific enquiry, student or "grizzled" professor. That means that responses to students and professors alike should be free and frank, but the responder must realize that errors will (if the system works properly) be pointed out--no holds barred. Time was, professors cut students no slack, but neither were they particularly "nasty" about it (though I confess that it does seem to me that many students may misinterpret frankness for hostility). "Baptismal by fire" has a certain quality of sticking with one . . . At the same time, I think students should be revered. But not babied. I continue to welcome your criticisms. WT PS: A friend of ours has long been at or near the top of his field, highly and rightly respected for the hard work he has done all his life--the picture of the careful scientist, and a mild-mannered, patient professor loved by his students. Sharing a beer with me one time, he confided to me that he often felt fear that he would be found out a fraud. It's an uneasy position to be in, so if it's any comfort, to paraphrase Margaret Mead, "there's fear enough to go around." When one is at or near the top, it must be a heavy responsibility. The late G. Ledyard Stebbins, an emeritus professor at the time, once said something to the effect that he now no longer had to curry the favor of anyone; at last he could be perfectly frank--he needn't have bothered to explain; I appreciated, nay, felt privileged, to be "corrected" by a scientist of his well-deserved stature. I was astonished to hear that academic intimidation and the need for political pussyfooting apparently extended to the headiest heights of academic accomplishment. He was a natural teacher, patient with all, of whatever stature. It was always a pleasure to be in his company; he was another example of exemplary character. I, too, was intimidated by Ph.D's in my youth, especially the "notables." Going to the AAAS annual meeting in 1972 cured me. I was able to attend some sessions of some of the great scientists of the day, and I must say that most were very gracious--even though they did not tend to suffer fools gladly. Yes, young scientists were shaking in their boots, and the top people showed them no mercy--but only in the sense that they had high expectations of the students; they were not vicious or vindictive, unlike some of their pompous colleagues. Greatness stands out. It can't be faked. I never regretted getting up the courage to attend, but since I didn't give a paper, I really had nothing to fear--but I was just that intimidated. That experience got me over it. WT *Special thanks are due to David for making Ecolog available to everyone. Here's the brief summary of the responses to date: Not qualified to post to Ecolog. I love trying out my opinions and ideas on folks who are more knowledgeable, but only if it's going to be a learning experience and not turn into one of those, "I'm right and you're wrong so I'm going to be sarcastic/belittling about it" debates. I use it as a source of current community activity/conferences/jobs to help me gauge for the future. I have also used it to ask questions about my own research and have received very helpful tips from students and professionals alike. I think it can be a useful tool for networking to some extent as well. I have had mixed experiences with college faculty / graduate students / post-docs as an undergrad. My lower division professors for Physics, Biology, Chemistry made it apparent to me that in a class of 300+ students, they didn't have time for all of us. I have been in office hours trying to understand a concept, and been kicked out for "wasting [his] time" because if " [I] don't get it after [he's] explained it to [me] three times, [I] probably never will." However, my upper division professors have been incredibly nurturing, providing me with the support, encouragement, and affection I've needed to overcome some of my greatest hurdles as a science student. I cannot concur that it is intimidation. It is sometimes such, from a few. But more often it is boring human proclivity to self interest, by the mediocre, within the entrenched power imbalance within academia. Happily the academy renews itself with junior faculty, who reliably go with change in favour of students. I just can't wait to get my M.S and get published so people will finally want to talk to me about things . . . Because sometimes The P.I. allows a lab manager to intimidate and harass the graduate students in a lab. The treatment conveys a clear message about the lowly status of the graduate student. If there is any doubt remaining in the grad's mind, the verbally blunt instructions to be quiet, listen and do not participate during journal article discussions absolutely confirms the peon status. I have found a bias that I can only call "snobbery" toward those who are not "scientists," per se. I have been perpetually frustrated by the inability to find an intellectually stimulating PhD program that will allow me to balance the "soft" with the "hard" sciences. I am also a student and am also rather terrified of posting on or responding to posts on Ecolog. Has the idea of creating another Ecolog-type listserv but only for students ever come up? It could be really helpful in encouraging students to discuss ideas, but with much less fear of seeming non-worthwhile, stupid, etc. I guess it might get complicated to limit the listserv to students. Just an idea that popped into my head.... Possibly [insufficiently well-thought-out] responses, lack of grammar, partially thought out ideas? Upon consideration thought it is sort of funny to think posting to listserv would follow you around anywhere. I wouldn't want to post there, lest my response be misinterpreted as either idiotic or inflammatory. Our academic culture does not encourage individuals especially students, to ask others what the answer is. These kinds of responses are far from intimidating, but they do seem unnecessary to me. I'd say the #1 reason can be summed up by one word intimidation. There is no doubt that those looking for work SHOULD avoid saying anything that could be perceived as questionable. . . . part of the reason I had originally "joined" the listserv, was to have a communication tool that would allow me contact to the "world" I had hoped to become a part of when my degrees were complete. Personally, I welcome the interaction with students as their enthusiasm and curiosity renew my passion for my discipline. I hope . . . will continue the listserv and can find a way to make interactions by students more frequent and rewarding for their current and future endeavors. I am curious to know why today's students are reluctant. . . . now that I'm tenure-track, I'm seeing how capricious academics can be, especially when it comes to judging junior faculty. And so I think this all has me feeling like it could all go away for reasons that seem just as meaningless to me, at least until I'm tenured. So in the cost-benefit analysis of posting on ECOLOG, I rarely see any benefit to me or to the list-serve readers that could outweigh a universe of unknown risks with imaginable (though perhaps unrealistic) disastrous costs to me. Clearly better to keep quiet until that equation is very different.
