I'm entering Year 2 of not working directly "in science" after graduating
with a international double M.Sc. in evolutionary ecology in Sept. 2012. In
part I simply wanted to step back, regroup, and take a focused look at what
I wanted to do next before leaping into a PhD (as many of my classmates
did, with greater and lesser degrees of stress/success); after 3 years
living abroad I also wanted to spend more time with family and old friends.
I agree with Anna - I'll never "leave science" as it's the way that I view
the world, and my passion first and foremost. However I found myself
feeling a real need to reconnect with what was going on outside of
academia, so have spent the time exploring some perhaps somewhat clichéd
tracks in sustainable/regenerative agriculture, restoration, farming, and
landscaping, while also being able to catch up on hiking, reading,
farming/gardening and other activities that took a back burner during my
studies.
Along the way, and increasingly, I've found myself really keen to be back
in research, but in a more applied focus and potentially with some
connection to agriculture (one thesis was in theoretical evolution, the
other in field-based microbiology/eco-immunology). Even though I've felt
the last two years were a bit of "floundering", I also have a few more
references, a diverse set of experiences, and a much refreshed and more
open outlook than I might have had before. I try not to worry too much that
I've set myself back and instead focus on developing skills - sampling,
data analysis, teaching/public speaking, writing, editing, etc. - that will
serve me in good stead should I *not* secure a "real science" position as
quickly as I'd like. If nothing else I have a bunch of new skills, a full
freezer, and friends with grass-fed beef and pork!
I agree with David's sentiments that, "Hard work, a good attitude, and
exhibiting development in a volunteer position can be just as valuable as
in a paid position, especially if particular marketable skills are learned
or improved from the effort." All the better if you can angle it even
slightly towards your scientific interests (I got an early start after
second year college by cooking at a field station, using previous work
experience to leverage myself into a job that afforded me ample opportunity
to tag along with a variety of field crews; and again, cooking got me into
a sweet off-grid geology camp for several summers in a row - so there are
always backdoor options!).
On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 11:23 AM, David L. McNeely <mcnee...@cox.net> wrote:
> Angela, any volunteer work that you do that is in your field and that
> contributes to your experience, skills, and so on should be included on
> your resume or cv. It can help, depending on the needs (and attitude) of
> the hiring entity and personnel. That said, I once got a letter of
> "recommendation" for an applicant which basically said that the applicant
> had indeed "volunteered" for the recommending person's lab, but that she
> had made it clear that she was just there to pick up a reference, and
> contributed little. Not a very good way to "pick up a reference," I'd say.
>
> Hard work, a good attitude, and exhibiting development in a volunteer
> position can be just as valuable as in a paid position, especially if
> particular marketable skills are learned or improved from the effort.
> David McNeely
>
> ---- Angela Trenkle <angelatren...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I have a question regarding this:
> > Suppose you take a full time job in something else to pay the bills
> but
> > continue to volunteer your time in the sciences in the evenings and/or on
> > the weekends? Would that still be okay? (I'm also in the same boat, I've
> > been out of college for 2 years and still no full time job)
> > -Angela
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 10:41 AM, Andrew Wright <marineb...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Let me put it another way,
> > >
> > > I know I have been turned down for a role purely because I had not
> been in
> > > the field with the newest version of one particular piece of
> technology.
> > > They told me this flat out when I asked why I did not have the job.
> This is
> > > apparently without consideration that the skills required to use the
> lower
> > > tech gear are actually more extensive. However, by stepping out of the
> > > field to pay bills, I had missed that experience. Even if the other
> > > employment does not count against you, the lack of continuous
> scientific
> > > employment most definitely does.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > >
> > > Andrew
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Andrew Wright, Ph.D.
> > >
> > > "We don't have to save the world. The world is big enough to look after
> > > itself. What we have to be concerned about is whether or not the world
> we
> > > live in will be capable of sustaining us in it." Douglas Adams
> > >
> > >
> > > On 30 July 2014 01:10, Malcolm McCallum <
> malcolm.mccallum.ta...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Nonsense.
> > > > You just have to apply to the right programs at the right time.
> > > > Right now, the Academic community is facing catestrophic budget cuts.
> > > > My time at TAMUT was ended with a 22.2% budget cut over two years.
> > > > I watched all the staff be let go as UMKC was faced with budget cuts
> > > > of around 18% from 2012 to 2013. Missouri universities are facing a
> > > > special new pile of budget cuts now that the state congress gutted
> the
> > > > tax support. I've worked in Illinois, Missouri, Texas, Arkansas and
> > > > Louisiana. All are facing cuts, although AR actually cuts other
> > > > things before education these days.
> > > >
> > > > I don't know who I will vote for when the next election comes around.
> > > > But, I do know which party's primary I will vote in to eliminate the
> > > > most dangerous anti-education, anti-science, anti-environment
> > > > candidates before they become candidates.
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 6:48 PM, Andrew Wright <marineb...@gmail.com
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Hi Malcolm and all,
> > > > >
> > > > > This is all well and good, but I've been doing science on the side
> > > while
> > > > > paying bills and now my policy experience seems to count as a blot
> on
> > > my
> > > > CV
> > > > > in efforts to get back into science proper. Academic employers
> seem to
> > > > > consider such things unfavourable these days.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best,
> > > > >
> > > > > Andrew
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Andrew Wright, Ph.D.
> > > > >
> > > > > "We don't have to save the world. The world is big enough to look
> after
> > > > > itself. What we have to be concerned about is whether or not the
> world
> > > we
> > > > > live in will be capable of sustaining us in it." Douglas Adams
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 29 July 2014 17:39, Malcolm McCallum <
> > > > malcolm.mccallum.ta...@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Folks,
> > > > >> there are two things here.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> 1) academic interests
> > > > >> 2) employment.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Looking for a job does not mean that you are leaving science.
> You are
> > > > >> finding employment. Heck, Einstein did this too. I'm not sure
> Darwin
> > > > >> ever spent a day employed in science. He was a ships mate and
> > > > >> naturalist be default. Einstein worked in a patent office while
> doing
> > > > >> his PHD. I just forgot his name, but one fairly prolific
> > > > >> herpetologist made a living selling insurance. Also, as for
> teaching
> > > > >> high school, I would argue this is not leaving science. I had a
> > > > >> friend back in St. Louis who published state academy level stuff
> as a
> > > > >> high school teacher. IT wasn't subjects for Nature or Science,
> but it
> > > > >> was certainly legit.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> You got to pay the bills.
> > > > >> I've held jobs as divergent as Associate professor (untenured) to
> > > > >> being a janitor in a truck stop. Trust me, at times the
> > > > >> responsibilities are not much different. I've taught kindergarten
> > > > >> through doctoral students (PHD/MD).
> > > > >>
> > > > >> It is a constant struggle to remain or get employed in science.
> Part
> > > > >> of it is because there really are a large number of very talented
> > > > >> people out there. Part of it is because politicians cut budgets
> on
> > > > >> anything non-military. Part of it is permanent faculty allowing
> admin
> > > > >> to glut the institutions with temps and part-timers. All you can
> do
> > > > >> is do your best. If you want to do science, it has nothing
> really to
> > > > >> do with employment. However, if you want to be employed doing
> > > > >> science, you are probably best to get a PHD.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 1:13 PM, Osa Idehen <akug...@icloud.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >> > Hi Allison,
> > > > >> > I feel your pain. After grad school (environmental science) I
> > > picked a
> > > > >> > job with a grassroots organization that help minority farmers
> and
> > > > landowners
> > > > >> > in rural area improve their economy. I took the job to be able
> to
> > > pay
> > > > bills,
> > > > >> > while looking for other opportunities in science, but I ended up
> > > > spending
> > > > >> > five years. While on the job I found a way to remain in
> science-the
> > > > >> > organization partners with universities on different research
> > > projects
> > > > >> > ranging from on-farm research to research in forestry land. The
> > > > organization
> > > > >> > links the universities with landowners and farmers on whom farm
> or
> > > > land
> > > > >> > on-site research projects were sited. I took advantage of it and
> > > > >> > participated in the research projects. I even got a chance to
> work
> > > on
> > > > rural
> > > > >> > medicine project. They also do a lot of policy work, which I was
> > > > involved in
> > > > >> > too. I finally went back to school last year with a renewed
> focus on
> > > > science
> > > > >> > and my experience in the last five years is now shaping my
> research
> > > > >> > interests. Yes, I am still in science - working on
> interdisciplinary
> > > > PhD
> > > > >> > program.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > My advice is if you really love science, but can't find a job in
> > > > science
> > > > >> > right away choose a job that offers that opportunity to use your
> > > > science: a
> > > > >> > law firm looking for expert in your field, a non-profit doing
> work
> > > in
> > > > >> > relevant area, policy advocate organization, parks focused on
> > > > >> > sustainability, USDA, tour guide at an ecological center,
> investment
> > > > analyst
> > > > >> > at a firm interested in science, construction company
> interested in
> > > > habitat
> > > > >> > restoration, preservation and/or sustainability, a film
> production
> > > > company
> > > > >> > focused on science, etc.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > All this will help you keep your science mind and you will
> still be
> > > > >> > relevant when you finally find a science job. I would stay away
> > > from a
> > > > >> > career path that makes my years in grad school useless (unless
> of
> > > > course I
> > > > >> > hated grad degree).
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > I wish you success.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Sent from my iPad
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > On Jul 28, 2014, at 3:36 PM, "Allison F. Walston" <
> > > > atwals...@gmail.com>
> > > > >> > wrote:
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >> Hey everyone
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> I graduated with my MS in ecology earlier this year and I was
> able
> > > to
> > > > >> >> get a
> > > > >> >> temporary job after graduation. However, the job will be ending
> > > > shortly
> > > > >> >> and
> > > > >> >> they won't be able to make any permanent hires in the
> foreseeable
> > > > >> >> future. I
> > > > >> >> have a few other irons in the fire, but I am growing
> increasingly
> > > > >> >> skeptical
> > > > >> >> that any of them will pan out.
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> I know a lot of people are in a similar situation given the job
> > > > market
> > > > >> >> and
> > > > >> >> I've recently started thinking about looking outside of
> science. I
> > > > did
> > > > >> >> well
> > > > >> >> during grad school and gained a lot of analytical skills.
> However,
> > > I
> > > > >> >> can
> > > > >> >> imagine the confusion my grad degree would cause for a
> potential
> > > > >> >> employer
> > > > >> >> outside of science/biology/conservation.
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> Has anyone else made the decision to leave science shortly
> after
> > > grad
> > > > >> >> school? What sort of things are career paths are worth looking
> > > into?
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> Allison
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> --
> > > > >> Malcolm L. McCallum, PHD, REP
> > > > >> Department of Environmental Studies
> > > > >> University of Illinois at Springfield
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Managing Editor,
> > > > >> Herpetological Conservation and Biology
> > > > >>
> > > > >> "Nothing is more priceless and worthy of preservation than the
> rich
> > > > >> array of animal life with which our country has been blessed. It
> is a
> > > > >> many-faceted treasure, of value to scholars, scientists, and
> nature
> > > > >> lovers alike, and it forms a vital part of the heritage we all
> share
> > > > >> as Americans."
> > > > >> -President Richard Nixon upon signing the Endangered Species Act
> of
> > > > >> 1973 into law.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> "Peer pressure is designed to contain anyone with a sense of
> drive" -
> > > > >> Allan Nation
> > > > >>
> > > > >> 1880's: "There's lots of good fish in the sea" W.S. Gilbert
> > > > >> 1990's: Many fish stocks depleted due to overfishing, habitat
> loss,
> > > > >> and pollution.
> > > > >> 2000: Marine reserves, ecosystem restoration, and pollution
> reduction
> > > > >> MAY help restore populations.
> > > > >> 2022: Soylent Green is People!
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The Seven Blunders of the World (Mohandas Gandhi)
> > > > >> Wealth w/o work
> > > > >> Pleasure w/o conscience
> > > > >> Knowledge w/o character
> > > > >> Commerce w/o morality
> > > > >> Science w/o humanity
> > > > >> Worship w/o sacrifice
> > > > >> Politics w/o principle
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message, including any
> > > > >> attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and
> may
> > > > >> contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized
> > > > >> review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you
> are not
> > > > >> the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail
> and
> > > > >> destroy all copies of the original message.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Malcolm L. McCallum, PHD, REP
> > > > Department of Environmental Studies
> > > > University of Illinois at Springfield
> > > >
> > > > Managing Editor,
> > > > Herpetological Conservation and Biology
> > > >
> > > > "Nothing is more priceless and worthy of preservation than the rich
> > > > array of animal life with which our country has been blessed. It is a
> > > > many-faceted treasure, of value to scholars, scientists, and nature
> > > > lovers alike, and it forms a vital part of the heritage we all share
> > > > as Americans."
> > > > -President Richard Nixon upon signing the Endangered Species Act of
> > > > 1973 into law.
> > > >
> > > > "Peer pressure is designed to contain anyone with a sense of drive" -
> > > > Allan Nation
> > > >
> > > > 1880's: "There's lots of good fish in the sea" W.S. Gilbert
> > > > 1990's: Many fish stocks depleted due to overfishing, habitat loss,
> > > > and pollution.
> > > > 2000: Marine reserves, ecosystem restoration, and pollution
> reduction
> > > > MAY help restore populations.
> > > > 2022: Soylent Green is People!
> > > >
> > > > The Seven Blunders of the World (Mohandas Gandhi)
> > > > Wealth w/o work
> > > > Pleasure w/o conscience
> > > > Knowledge w/o character
> > > > Commerce w/o morality
> > > > Science w/o humanity
> > > > Worship w/o sacrifice
> > > > Politics w/o principle
> > > >
> > > > Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message, including any
> > > > attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may
> > > > contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized
> > > > review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are
> not
> > > > the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and
> > > > destroy all copies of the original message.
> > > >
> > >
>
> --
> David McNeely
>
--
M.Sc. Evolution 2012 (France/Netherlands)
BSc. Ecology Hon 1st, University of Calgary, Canada
"The master in the art of living makes little distinction between his work
and his play, his labor and his leisure, his mind and his body, his
information and his recreation, his life and his religion. He hardly knows
which is which. He simply pursues his vision of excellence at whatever he
does, leaving others to decide whether he is working or playing. To him,
he's always doing both."
-
- - J. Michener
--
M.Sc. Evolution 2012 (France/Netherlands)
BSc. Ecology Hon 1st, University of Calgary, Canada
"The master in the art of living makes little distinction between his work
and his play, his labor and his leisure, his mind and his body, his
information and his recreation, his life and his religion. He hardly knows
which is which. He simply pursues his vision of excellence at whatever he
does, leaving others to decide whether he is working or playing. To him,
he's always doing both."
-
- - J. Michener
