> From: Rodrigo Dias Arruda Senra [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 12:49 PM
> To: Arthur
> Cc: edu-sig@python.org
> Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] A case against GUIs in intro CS :-)
>
> Moreover, a good communicator may be capable to convey mul
[ Arthur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ]
---
|
|
| > -Original Message-
| > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:edu-sig-
| > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rodrigo Dias
| > Arruda Senra
| > "Avoiding repetition == respect" is an oversimplification t
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:edu-sig-
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rodrigo Dias
> Arruda Senra
> Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 11:32 AM
> To: edu-sig@python.org
> Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] A case against GUIs in intro CS :-)
> "A
Arthur wrote:
| > The author communicates respect for his audience. He says things once.
| > Even hard things...Him repeating himself is not going to help
| > because he has already said it the best way he could
| > find to say it. Saying it a second time, he could only be saying it a
I have often wondered if we didn't lose something when the first programming
people learn
to do is no longer batch processing -- the sort I learned to do with cards. At
any rate,
I keep meeting people who have severe problems understanding how to write
programs that
do not interact with a user
> > This would seem very austere to newbies, but we'd perpetuate
> > the ethos that GUIs are for gimps -- you don't need those handicaps to
> > play the game. But it'd be a mock attitude, i.e. we secretly respect
> > GUIs (the good ones) and write them ourselves.
>
> Yikes. Any "gimp" who has h
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Toby Donaldson
> A wiser approach is to
> encourage students to use the best tool for the job.
Were it only that easy.
Perhaps it is easy, except when its important.
For example, what is the best to
> I'd like a CS0/CS1 to take a more resolutely historical approach and clomp
> through the command line era in grand style, taking very seriously the
> command line switches, man pages, HTML manuals or whatever. Especially in
> UNIX, these commands were designed to be chained, switched, piped,
> r
> -Original Message-
> From: Kirby Urner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 12:08 PM
> To: 'Arthur'; 'Edu-sig'
> Subject: RE: [Edu-sig] A case against GUIs in intro CS :-)
>
> > The only realms that I can think of in which
> The only realms that I can think of in which the notion of the voluntary
> adoption of and adaptation to discomfort has been successfully introduced
> is
>
> Religion
> Athletic training
>
> I have decided to (at this time) forego the incorporation of the Church of
> the Awkward Interface (hmmm
> -Original Message-
> From: Arthur [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: 'Arthur'; 'Kirby Urner'; 'Edu-sig'
> > Behalf Of Arthur
> So I don't think they are likely to ever uncover the truths here, where
> the
> results are not the point, and a certain level of discomfort (avoiding
> glibness)
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Arthur
> Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 9:52 PM
> To: 'Kirby Urner'; 'Edu-sig'
> Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] A case against GUIs in intro CS :-)
> > -Orig
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Kirby Urner
> To some extent what's bogus about the GUI vs. no-GUI debate is that you
> /have/ to have an interface to the user at some point, whether this is
> accomplished with bells and whistles
> There are actually subtle dangers in event-driven design itself. I
> heartily suggest everyone read Miro Samek's "Who Moved My State",
> C/C++ Users Journal, April 2003. He says it much better than I can,
> and he's one who Really Knows.
After a little Googling, here it is:
http://www.quantum-le
To some extent what's bogus about the GUI vs. no-GUI debate is that you
/have/ to have an interface to the user at some point, whether this is
accomplished with bells and whistles or not. So both the command line and
the windowing environment are meant to accomplish the same purpose: closing
th
Hello Arthur,
Saturday, June 4, 2005, 6:06:34 AM, you wrote:
A> Question.
A> I don't remember SQL and database ever coming up here.
A> It is the only the combination of skills I developed in learning Python and
A> in learning SQL and database design that has allowed me to become useful in
A> th
Hello Toby,
Saturday, June 4, 2005, 1:50:30 AM, you wrote:
TD> On 6/3/05 11:00 AM, "Chuck Allison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I think VB is the absolute
>> worst way to introduce programming,
TD> Worse than COBOL? Or the C pre-processor? :-)
Well, worse than what is being used today. These
Arthur wrote:
> I don't remember SQL and database ever coming up here
> Where does it fit into the CS curriculum?
It is typically its own course (it takes a completely different
attitude than "another programming language"). Most programmers
"pick it up" after school. Usually they "don't wan
> Behalf Of Toby Donaldson
> To: Chuck Allison; Jeffrey Elkner
> I more commonly hear students complain that CS doesn't do a good job of
> preparing them for a career in software engineering. That it is too
> focused
> on esoteric theory, and that too many (university) faculty hold their
> noses
On 6/3/05 2:50 PM, "Nicola Larosa" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Event-driven programming is a narrow, over-emphasized slice of the
>> software experience,
>
> No, this is going too far. Event-driven, asynchronous programming is not
> limited to GUIs: it is instead a powerful, if a little invasiv
On 6/3/05 11:00 AM, "Chuck Allison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think VB is the absolute
> worst way to introduce programming,
Worse than COBOL? Or the C pre-processor? :-)
> and emphasizing GUI in a first exposure to computing is a mistake.
My feeling is that it was not so much GUI-first as
> Event-driven programming is a narrow, over-emphasized slice of the
> software experience,
No, this is going too far. Event-driven, asynchronous programming is not
limited to GUIs: it is instead a powerful, if a little invasive ;-) ,
concurrency model. Anyone who "got" Twisted ( http://twistedmat
Jeffrey Elkner wrote:
>On Fri, 2005-06-03 at 01:59 -0700, Toby Donaldson wrote:
>
>
>>When I taught VB (Visual BASIC), however, the GUIs were great, and
>>students almost universally said the course was more interesting and
>>enjoyable because of them. In part, they liked the fact that their
>>p
Arthur wrote:
> The author communicates respect for his audience. He says things once.
> Even hard things. It doesn't mean he expects me to get it on reading it
> once, but we understand each other I think - there is nothing stopping me
> from reading it five or six times if I need to. Him repea
Hello Jeffrey,
Friday, June 3, 2005, 7:08:29 AM, you wrote:
JE> I "taught" VB for a year, and was amazed to find out that I made it
JE> through the entire year without either myself or my students (naturally)
JE> learning much of anything about programming. To be fair, that is not
JE> the fault
> Behalf Of Radenski, Atanas
> > Behalf Of Bob Noonan
>
> GUI programming is relatively complex. To understand it, one needs to
> understand event handling. I have hard time explaining event handling to
> beginners and see that beginners have hard time understanding it. While
> GUI programming
On Fri, 2005-06-03 at 01:59 -0700, Toby Donaldson wrote:
> When I taught VB (Visual BASIC), however, the GUIs were great, and
> students almost universally said the course was more interesting and
> enjoyable because of them. In part, they liked the fact that their
> programs looked like real progr
> The problem is that GUI programming is given significant coverage in
> most mainstream introductory CS textbooks. Open an arbitrary Java-based
> textbook and you are likely to face GUIs from almost the beginning.
> Sample programs and exercises often come with GUI shells that obscure
> their
Hello Atanas,
I agree with this post 100%. GUIs require a fairly good understanding
of event loops and OOP. They confuse beginners who have to look at the
code as well as the pictures. They are, however, a good example of
quality OO design, once the students have a little experience.
Thursday, Ju
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Arthur
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of Radenski, Atanas
> > > -Original Message-
> > > Behalf Of Bob Noonan
> >
> > > Th
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Radenski, Atanas
> Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 9:43 PM
> To: Bob Noonan; edu-sig@python.org
> Subject: [Edu-sig] A case against GUIs in intro CS :-)
>
>
> > -Or
> -Original Message-
> Behalf Of Bob Noonan
> The one place where Python is clearly deficient IMHO is in GUI
programming.
While this might be true, I do not feel it is a problem. The problem is
that GUI programming is given significant coverage in most mainstream
introductory CS textbook
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