--- On Fri, 5/6/09, Warren Smith warren@gmail.com wrote:
Now consider tactics.
In contrast, with
preferential ballot, the
number of possible
exaggerated-tactical-style votes is
{Dem Nader Repub}
and {Repub Nader Dem}
which is only 2 options.
Do you have an exact definition
--- On Fri, 5/6/09, Kevin Venzke step...@yahoo.fr wrote:
Hi,
--- En date de : Jeu 4.6.09, Árpád Magosányi mag...@rabic.org
a écrit :
I guess the list might have opininons
in this discussion.
If you argue that tactical voting reduces Range to
Approval, you can expect the response
Yes, and ties may be allowed in
rank-order votes.
Warren Smith also assumed rank-order
ballots to be transitive. That is
not necessary. If we allow any kind
of votes then there are many more
possible rank-order votes. Most of
them are not typically needed but
the same applies to many of the
P.S. Below I should have said that Nader
would be a Condorcet winner or winner in
Condorcet methods etc.
--- On Sat, 6/6/09, Juho Laatu juho4...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
From: Juho Laatu juho4...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Re: [EM] Some myths about voting methods
To:
Warren Smith wrote:
6=3! possible rank-order votes. However, there are 8=2^3 possible
approval-style votes. Since 86, we see the approval voting ballots
provided more, not less,
info, than the preferential ballot.
Now you may say but two of those approval ballot types, namely
all-yes and
The number of possible votes is not the same as the amount of information in
a single ballot. With 3 candidates, there are indeed 8 possible ballots, but
any one ballot can be encoded in 3 bits, since any particular choice
requires only that many to represent it.
Ranked ballots require 2 bits per
And of course, for range ballots the expression is log(base 2) X (rounded
up) times N=number of alternatives, where X is the maximum value in the
[0,X] permissible range for voters to specify for each candidate. For range
to be different than ranked ballots, at least one more bit per alternative
On Jun 6, 2009, at 11:10 AM, Paul Kislanko wrote:
The number of possible votes is not the same as the amount of
information in
a single ballot. With 3 candidates, there are indeed 8 possible
ballots, but
any one ballot can be encoded in 3 bits, since any particular choice
requires only that
Besides the obvious problem with the notion of a fraction of a bit, you're
still confusing the number of possible ballots with the amount of
information conveyed by a single ballot.
If there are 3 candidates, in approval a ballot only needs 3 bits. Ranked
ballots need to carry the order the voter
Paul Kislanko wrote:
The number of possible votes is not the same as the amount of information in
a single ballot. With 3 candidates, there are indeed 8 possible ballots, but
any one ballot can be encoded in 3 bits, since any particular choice
requires only that many to represent it.
Ranked
No, no no no NO. Now you're introducing counting algorithms. Which have to
have pre-processed the ballots to produce the summary in a compacted format.
You MUST consider how to use ONE ballot to represent ABC in a
three-candidate race. You cannot do it with less than 6 bits.
ONE ballot. Three
Paul Kislanko wrote:
No, no no no NO. Now you're introducing counting algorithms. Which have to
have pre-processed the ballots to produce the summary in a compacted format.
You MUST consider how to use ONE ballot to represent ABC in a
three-candidate race. You cannot do it with less than 6
On Jun 6, 2009, at 11:59 AM, Paul Kislanko wrote:
Besides the obvious problem with the notion of a fraction of a bit,
you're
still confusing the number of possible ballots with the amount of
information conveyed by a single ballot.
There's no problem, really, with fractional bits. It's
If all we need is a lookup table we need to count the number of bits in
that table as a part of every ballot.
-Original Message-
From: Jonathan Lundell [mailto:jlund...@pobox.com]
Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 3:09 PM
To: Paul Kislanko
Cc: election-meth...@electorama.com
Subject: Re:
If there's no problem with fractional bits we are not talking about
information. We are also not talking about how to store 10 ballots'
results, we're talking about how much information we can retrieve from ONE
ballot.
-Original Message-
From:
All fairly interesting, but whatever that algorithm is is off topic.
Show me an algorithm that can take ONE ballot as input and return one of the
permutations of {A B C} using 3 or fewer bits.
Several people have noted that one can list all 6 permutations in order and
assign each a number as in
Warren asked me to not write him anymore, but I want everyone to know that
he has been unable to substantiate his claim that as much information can be
obtained from approval ballots as from ranked or range ballots.
What's more interesting to a simple voter like me is the suggestion that my
On Jun 6, 2009, at 2:23 PM, Paul Kislanko wrote:
If all we need is a lookup table we need to count the number of
bits in
that table as a part of every ballot.
No more than we need extra bits to explain the meaning of your 00 01
10 11 encoding. (And it'd be once per election anyway, not
This is what started my diatribe against idiots.
Warren Smith wrote:
--let me refute some errors/myths here. In a 3-candidate election, there
are
6=3! possible rank-order votes. However, there are 8=2^3 possible
approval-style votes. Since 86, we see the approval voting ballots
provided
Paul Kislanko wrote:
All fairly interesting, but whatever that algorithm is is off topic.
Show me an algorithm that can take ONE ballot as input and return one of the
permutations of {A B C} using 3 or fewer bits.
Several people have noted that one can list all 6 permutations in order and
whoops, typo: 100, not 010, is binary for 4.
--
Warren D. Smith
http://RangeVoting.org -- add your endorsement (by clicking
endorse as 1st step)
and
math.temple.edu/~wds/homepage/works.html
Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
Warren continues to NOT be able to specify how Ranked ballots provide no
more information than Approval ballots.
Warren continues to use the approach of using a particular coding to
represent a ranked ballot. I ask again, if my ballot is 6 what order did I
mean for A, B and C?
Extract it from 6,
Let's go back to the original post. Mr Smith called me an idiot for pointing
out that his claim that approval ballots contain as much information as
ranked ballots or range ballots do.
I point out that given a range ballot I can create a ranked ballot, and
given a ranked ballot (truncation
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