Re: [EM] Challenge2 - give an example where MFBC is violated for Condorcet methods

2011-06-09 Thread Juho Laatu
On 9.6.2011, at 8.45, Peter Zbornik wrote: Juho, I think the coming paper in votingmatters on hybrid methods, shows that strategy voting can be a problem in Condorcet methods (beatpath). I would say that fears in a sense always are irrational, as they are emotions. I think, that fears

Re: [EM] Challenge2 - give an example where MFBC is violated for Condorcet methods

2011-06-08 Thread Juho Laatu
On 7.6.2011, at 10.53, Peter Zbornik wrote: I'd say that FBC (and LNH) is quite a big problem for Condorcet methods, at least for someone (like me) who think sincere voting should be the norm. One could also claim that in typical political elections Condorcet methods will work fine, and

Re: [EM] Challenge2 - give an example where MFBC is violated for Condorcet methods

2011-06-08 Thread Peter Zbornik
Juho, I think the coming paper in votingmatters on hybrid methods, shows that strategy voting can be a problem in Condorcet methods (beatpath). I would say that fears in a sense always are irrational, as they are emotions. I think, that fears increase the chance of survival in many cases though

Re: [EM] Challenge2 - give an example where MFBC is violated for Condorcet methods

2011-06-07 Thread Peter Zbornik
Hi Kevin, I agree, FBC is a problem for all Condorcet elections and generalized symmetric completion does not help. I think something should be written about the FBC on Wikipedia (but with an other name as someone (Jonathan Lundell?) proposed on this list, in order to avoid emotional connotations

Re: [EM] Challenge2 - give an example where MFBC is violated for Condorcet methods

2011-06-07 Thread Kristofer Munsterhjelm
Peter Zbornik wrote: Hi Kevin, I agree, FBC is a problem for all Condorcet elections and generalized symmetric completion does not help. I think something should be written about the FBC on Wikipedia (but with an other name as someone (Jonathan Lundell?) proposed on this list, in order to avoid

Re: [EM] Challenge2 - give an example where MFBC is violated for Condorcet methods

2011-06-07 Thread Peter Zbornik
Kristofer, thanks for sorting out the details. I am not sure I buy your argument on LNHarm, as I do not how to distinguish extremists from non-extremists within the framework of election theory, where you only have the votes cast to take into account, and these votes might or might not be

Re: [EM] Challenge2 - give an example where MFBC is violated for Condorcet methods

2011-06-06 Thread Peter Zbornik
Dear Markus Schulze and all others, Thanks for the example. I messed things up a bit with a bad definition, my appologies. What I would like to see was a violation of a weaker criterion (that is clear from the example specification). What I would like then to see a proof of violation, is a less

Re: [EM] Challenge2 - give an example where MFBC is violated for Condorcet methods

2011-06-06 Thread Peter Zbornik
Dear all, two clarifications. With favorite i mean the sincere favorite below. A correction of an unfinished sentence (addition in CAPITALS): MFBC and MSFBC say basically, that if some of the voters who have A as a first preference (i.e. vote A(OR =)...[the other candidates]) in an election

Re: [EM] Challenge2 - give an example where MFBC is violated for Condorcet methods

2011-06-06 Thread Jameson Quinn
That I'm aware of, favorite betrayal is almost always a tool to help someone besides your favorite. Think of plurality: you vote the lesser evil. Only in a non-monotonic method could it be otherwise. The only non-monotonic methods worth even mentioning are runoff methods. Jameson 2011/6/6 Peter