EV Digest 6505
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Spring Shop Cleaning - Bargains
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Battery Woes
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re:Sunrise, not Freedom EV Questions
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) swamp cooled EV?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Freedom EV Questions And a few answers.
by Tom Gocze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Best way to run battery cables
by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: swamp cooled EV?
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: swamp cooled EV?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Best way to run battery cables
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) BattEQ test (was Battery Woes)
by "Mick Abraham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: PFC 20 thermal compensation
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) PFC 20 configured- now what?
by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Battery Woes
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: swamp cooled EV?
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) My latest attempt to get a few extra miles ... never seen this one done
before
by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Best way to run battery cables
by "Mike Harvey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: My latest attempt to get a few extra miles ... never seen this one
done before
by "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) KillaCycle chain drive photos
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: My latest attempt to get a few extra miles ... never seen this
one done before
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Best way to run battery cables
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
We're having a shop cleaning weekend, and want to move out some stuff
we don't need.
1. Two 50' coils of 4/0 fine strand welding cable. Retail value
$300 each. Will sell for $150 each + shipping.
2. Assorted color & black pens for HP 7550 plotter. Free to a good home.
3. American Monarch offboard charger, 208/240 VAC 35/30 A single
phase input, 144 VDC nominal output, 185V finish, configured for
Hawker Genesis pack, with instruction manual. Cost $1200 new, asking
$600 + shipping.
Or pick up in SF Bay Area.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Battery test:
- charge normally
- apply load of up to 4C or 100A (whichever maxes your test load) and
measure how many minutes it can sustain it before dipping to 10,5V
- charge normally
This reduces test time, but you will need a close eye on the discharge if
you don't have automatic shutoff.
Test to 10.5V is only necessary if you want to measure capacity.
To weed out bad batteries you only need to make sure the string is balanced,
then normally used and when
discharged, you do a load test. Bad batteries go from 12V to 10V in a
heartbeat.
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Philippe Borges
Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 4:48 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Battery Woes
I'm testing actually a LA50-12-4
Test 1 (simple equalisation of a poor 48V string) is occuring
7 years old stored uncharged since 2006 AGM 12V7Ah, 4 in serie for 48V7Ah
Checked individual Voltage before (Fluke 189, 20°C room temp)
11,37
12,42
12,59
12,21
Test start 3/03/2007, 12H16 (green LED flashing every 5 sec > ok) Surface
voltage at 12H35:
12,35
12,36
12,46
12,36
Surface voltage at 13H20:
Same !
when they will be all at same voltage (it should happen one day...) or if
im' bored to wait: end of test 1 Next i'm thinking is:
Test 2 (simple equalisation of a 48V string with 1 weak battery): charging
individually all except one (test 1 strongest one) connect batteq and check
what happen ...
if you have torture test procedures ideas i would be pleased to implement
them.
I use 7Ah because i have no time to test on 50Ah(scooter) nor bigger but we
just have to make the math. for bigger batteries ;^)
Cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait du volant, quel carburant choisiriez-vous
?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 11:47 PM
Subject: Re: Battery Woes
> Matt Kenigson wrote:
>> So, who on the list has used these BattEQ balancers? Who can vouch
>> for Mick? ;)
>
> We debated this topic a few months ago. The BattEQ is based on the
> flying capacitor circuit -- it switches a capacitor across one battery
> to charge to its voltage, then switches it to an adjacent battery to
> charge/discharge to its voltage. In this way, it balances by
> transferring charge between batteries.
>
> When I tried this on my own, I found that this technique worked but
> was not very effective. The balancing current was very low, and the
> efficiency was low.
>
> I have not tried Mick's BattEQ, and so can't say if it is any
> different or better than the circuit I tried. I did offer to test
> some, and Mick was willing to help; but then I've gotten swamped with
> work and wasn't able to actually do it.
>
> If someone has a BattEQ and is willing to do some testing, I think it
> would be very useful.
>
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Todd and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Todd Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Freedom EV Questions
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 14:12:23 -0800 (PST)
>A few questions have been nagging at me as I've watched the
>FreedomEV discussions. Maybe Jerry can help with answers.
>Anyway,
>
> 1st How did you get a Solectria Sunrise? I think there
>were only about 5 made total.
I bought it on E bay with the finacial help of
others like Bob Rice who went and got it from James Worden,
the owner of Solectria.
It isn't a finished car but a set of raw composite
parts to make one. There were probably 10 sets of body parts
made of which about 5 made it to the running stage. There
are at least 2 body versions.
As I'm rather deep into the Freedom EV, I decided
that it would be better, faster if someone else could take
on the Sunrise project and luckily Lee stepped up to the
plate and I can't think of a better person to do it.
>
> 2nd, what does Azure Dynamics think of your project?
>They've got 19 patents and probably plenty of Trademarks,
>and they might be trying still to get a major partner to
>put Sunrise in production.
About the only thing they could do is make Lee change
the name as just a slight change makes it a different EV.
Also we have all the data, last body/chassis that's
left and Azure has little to none so they couldn't make one
anyway.
And I went to Azure, though I didn't know that until I
was almost ready to leave, thought it was Solectria, as they
had the chassis mold they wanted to get rid of but in too
bad shape to be worthwhile. While there I mentioned we were
going to build a bunch of them for EVers and no one batted
an eye as that's they only reason one would want the chassis
mold. James really wants it built too so that probably had
something to do with it.
>
> 3rd, How the heck can you duplicate the high-tech body
>that they developed? They spent millions figuring out how
>to make that composite body and I don't understand how an
>individual could duplicate that effort.
Actually it's rather easy to make it even better.
Regretfully the designers were more engineers that composite
builders so Lee's will be lighter with more strength as not
so resin rich.
The Sunrise was made in a 2 sided high production mold
which lead to overweight parts and splitting in some places.
As Lee said it's being done in a 1 sided mold that with a
good composite person can layup a very light, strong part,
much better than a 2 sided one.
Jerry Dycus
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Best regards,
> Todd Martin
> Owner, 1997 Solectria Force
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think a ram scoop looking like those things they hung in the windows
on a 50's sedan would be cool. I thought maybe if it had a geared
flywheel connect to a fan and the pads with a belt drive water pump. As
you go down the road the fan spools up the flywheel preventing it from
going to fast. when stopped it keeps the fan going for the duration of
the stoplight.
I plan on trying a prius AC compressor. It will need a custom inverter,
but where better to develop(or play with demo board) a low power high
voltage 3phase variable speed inverter with boost pre-stage. (for those
who want to try using this compressor, please keep in mind that it uses
a special oil that can withstand the high voltage.) One motivating
factor here is that it is hermetically sealed unlike other Automotive AC
units so less worry about leaking into the environment. and much,much
more eficient when you don't have rotating shaft seals good for 250 psi
freon.
Without the heat from an ICE drive train and the ability to run it on
low while parked(and chargeing), perhaps this will not ever need to run
at full amps.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Bob,
That is a great story! I have followed it in the bits and pieces that
we see from day to day on EVDL. It great fun to read it all in one
fell swoop!
Thanks for taking the time to put it all down in one place.
Tom in Maine
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Two considerations I can think of: physical protection and losses. What do
folks generally do when running battery cables from the boxes (on the rear of a
small pickup in this case) up to the controller/motor area? Conduit?
Cable-tied together running along a frame rail? Some other kind of device?
I'd appreciate any/all opinions, advice, etc.
TIA
____________________________________________________________________________________
Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it now.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Swamp coolers mounted on the passenger side window were common about 50
years ago.
They disappeared when auto air conditioning became widely available. When I
visited
in-laws in 1964 in Phoenix many homes still had swamp coolers but many were
being
removed and replaced by air conditioning. My in-laws' house had had a swamp
cooler
that they had replaced with air conditioning. According to my in-laws there
were many
days in Phoenix when the humidity was too high for a swamp cooler to be
effective.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe we shouldn't try to cool the car. just the person. The human
already has a built in system for re-distributing heat in the body.
Race car drivers have a vest and or helmet pad with water flowing thru
it. This goes to a small pump in a little ice chest with a 1/2 block of
ice. I have seen them race hours with this in 100+ temps.
Fresno gets very hot, but usually quiet dry. My first test this summer
is to see how long ice can last. I am gonna take a dozen 20oz diet coke
bottles. It is an understatement to say I have a few of those around.
They are curvy, creating room for air flow. I will buy an ice-chest and
cut a hole for a 120mm 12V fan and place the bottles 3/4 full of water
and frozen in there and set it in the passenger seat or on the passenger
seat floor.
The problem is I don't need Ait conditioning on the way to work, I need
it on the way home. exactly backwards of where the freezer and charger
is :-(
This may be what to do with solar panels on the roof. run fans and/or
whatever micro AC you can make effient enough for such a small scale.
This is NOT Peltier, probably ammonia absorption.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Frank John
> What do folks generally do when running battery cables from the boxes
> (on the rear of a small pickup in this case) up to the controller/motor area?
Treat them as you would any home electrical wiring. Normal electrical codes are
a good practice. Install them so they do not touch anything that can burn, or
any metal that isn't grounded, and so they cannot be touched by people or
animals.
I prefer to run metal conduit under the car, and feed the cables through it.
This provides shielding and physical protection from road debris, rodents, and
other hazards.
If your cables won't be exposed, then bundling them with tie-wraps (and
twisting together where possible) is acceptable.
--
Lee Hart
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Philippe Borges said: "I'm testing actually a LA50-12-4."
[Mick says:] This is a 4 channel device for 12 volt monoblocs in a 48 volt
string. Energy transfer is about 2 amps maximum out from each channel. Smart
Spark recommends no more than a 50 ah battery rating for this palm sized
unit; I vary up or down from their ah recommendations depending on rate of
charge and/or rate of discharge. If a very wide delta v is present such that
excessive amperage throughput would result, the device will turn itself off
rather than burn up. On a tiny unit like this one operation resumes
automatically when the delta-v narrows a bit. On the bigger units a manual
reset is required after a protective shutdown occurs.
[Mick says:] Philippe's "first Test 1 (simple equalisation of a poor 48V
string)" required about 1 hour to roughly level the voltage in this
neglected string of batteries. He's off to a good start with the test. Note
that his first group of numbers adds up 48.59 volts to but the second group
20 minutes later adds up to 49.53 volts. It's unusual to see the voltage on
a battery string increase without being placed on a charger. Technically,
however, the balancer is charging the weaker segments using energy from the
strong segments. Philippe doesn't give the voltage for 13H20 but I'll bet
they add up to an even higher total. The end to end string voltage comes up
because the voltage suppression endured by the stronger segments is smaller
than the voltage boost enjoyed by the weak ones.
Mick says: The delta v begins to narrow in a fairly short amount of time. As
the delta v narrows the amperage transfer also diminishes. A tapering charge
effect means ever smaller energy will continue to move, possibly for several
days. My only concern with Philippe's approach so far is that the batteries
under test may be so far gone that even with the balancer the performance
may be poor. Only one way to find out...
Philippe said: "Next i'm thinking is:
Test 2 (simple equalisation of a 48V string with 1 weak battery): charging
individually all except one (test 1 strongest one) connect batteq and check
what happen"
[Mick says:] Test 2 looks fine as described, especially if the amps could be
read on the balancer wires. Test 2 would result in a big delta v when the
balancer is first connected, and that's when the maximum amperage transfer
can be seen.
Mick says: The acid test for any battery string is the number of amp-hours
it can deliver before it hits a low voltage shutoff point. Philippe: can you
get your hands on a Trace C-40 solar controller with digital voltmeter
option? These were once the biggest seller in the business and may be
available used. The jumpers inside can be moved to make this control behave
like a low voltage disconnect switch for a 48 volt string, and the meter
will then tell you the number of amp-hours delivered prior to the shutdown.
You'll need a breaker for safety/switching plus a suitable resistor.
Calculate the discharge rate for that resistor shooting for something like a
5 to 8 hour rate.
With BattEQ removed, charge the battery string to an end to end voltage of
about 56. Then test the string for amp-hour delivery. Watch the voltage of
each monobloc and look for the zombies in the string. These are the ones
that drop out on voltage so severely that the end to end voltage hits the
shutoff point prematurely. On old batteries the amp-hour deliver may be
shocking low. I hope the Trace control will have enough resolution to read a
potentially tiny amp-hour delivery number. (It would be more fair to BattEQ
if this "before" discharge test had been made before the balancer was ever
installed, as Test #1 & #2 will by now have already given some benefit to
the battery.)
Next install the balancer and recharge the string. Optimally, you should
clock the amp-hours restored and try to return the same amount that you had
removed during the discharge. Now with the balancer still in place, initiate
another discharge with the Trace controller in the circuit. When the
controller shuts things down, read the amp-hour delivery number and report
your findings. On old batteries that have been sitting neglected, the
amp-hour delivery may still be awful, but there's often an increase in amp
hour delivery which can be associated with the BattEQ.
An even better power delivery test that's simpler & more fun would be to
find someone who has a 48 volt scooter with a low voltage disconnect on
board to prevent battery overdischarge. If the scooter doesn't have that,
insert the Trace control between the battery and the scooter control box.
Measure the range over a known repeatable course before BattEQ, install
BattEQ, recharge, then measure the range over the same course. Best results
with the balancer would occur if the scooter batteries aren't totally ruined
but are showing diminished range from when new. Best results would also
occur if you give the balancer a few days to work before conducting the
second range test.
Thanks, Philippe for undertaking these initial tests within the EVDL.
Inquiring minds want to know...
Mick Abraham
www.abrahamsolar.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich, this is good to know.
In my implementation it's there (mid cell location) but no wiring
to it - just long skinny PCB half height of a cell inserted
between cells and plugged into a node PCB. One double -sided
"stick" serves 2 cells.
Making raw temp sensor itself available to outside world is totally
impractical, esp for 80-90 cells Li Packs - you have to have at
least 2N wires coming out - real spider web. But data (in my case)
is always available from the main controller though the serial port
to act upon; of course it can also be fished out by external sniffing
CAN node but really there is no need to do it that way.
For simpler (10-20 PbA batteries) systems having temp sensors available
to play with may be acceptable, but still really a wiring mess.
Integrated sensors would be nice but if you think about it, fitting one
before a cell or battery is installed is not difficult. For mfr this
means they have to agree on the sensor type and connector style
standard, etc. If it fails, battery is unusable unless you duplicate it
externally.
Integrated sensors are doable, but I don't see it happening tomorrow.
I spoke with one manufacturer about it, it opens a can of worms...
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
Rich Rudman wrote:
...
Note to LION BMS designer folks... install a temp sensor.. and allow the
outside world to use it.
All of them!
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I spent an evening charging and tweaking my PFC 20 to the proper voltage to
charge my new batteries as well as the timer. The instructions have you
setting the voltage at a very low rate of charge.
The breaker the charger is plugged into is dedicated for the car. According
to the vendor, my batteries can be charged up to the 60 amp rate. If I
understand correctly, the PFC 20 (without buck enhancement) is only putting
out 20 amps. Can I turn up the amperage knob now? How far? All the way?
Thanks,
Rich A.
Maryland
_________________________________________________________________
Mortgage rates as low as 4.625% - Refinance $150,000 loan for $579 a month.
Intro*Terms
https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h27f6&disc=y&vers=743&s=4056&p=5117
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
Don't be so sceptical, i'm an EVlist member, over the pond and though i
don't pay for it, i suppose you are not the only one selling Batteq in the
world, i'm wrong ?
;^)
I think i'm a little aware of battery testing though more nicad-nimh
specialised and learning lithium fast.
I use Fluke 123 and 189, few precise wattmeters, an homemade auto cycler
with adjustable cut-off and load.
I made few simple shunt reg design and tested their benefits/problems.
I'm(was as i have ideas now) asking here about specific tests to show
benefits of flying capacitor equaliser because i know near nothing about
them (only theory)
Today real test are showing me equalizing process is happening BUT take a
Loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time... even on tiny 7Ah batteries.
at 23H19 here i'm reading:
12.38
12.38
12.42
12.38
remember initial surface voltage (start at 12H00) was
11,37
12,42
12,59
12,21
11 Hours ago still not fully equalized ouch !!!
I was doubtful so checked with fluke and mesured an impressive 9ma flow, you
say slow equalisation ?!!!
I hope to see more power during Test 2.
Such rate may be ok for solar (i'm not sure about that) but on EV use seems
way too low...ask Lee about is wonderful 30A equaliser/balancer ;^)
Test 2 will be as soon as tomorrow morning, string may not be matched
exactly but i don't want to wait days before complete equalisation...
Mike you can freely send me your test procedures, you have my email.
Most important test and simplest for proving battery equaliser benefit is
just showing it's able to charge the weakest from the
other string batteries and the rate, in these essential aspects test 2 will
say all tomorrow.
Cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait du volant, quel carburant choisiriez-vous
?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mick Abraham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 6:49 PM
Subject: RE: Battery Woes
Electric Vehicle Discussion List member Matt Kenigson said:
"So, who on the list has used these BattEQ balancers? Who can vouch for
Mick? ;) Any gotchas other than price?"
[Mick says:] I have made no BattEQ(TM) sales to EVDL members so far. I did
help a non-member balance his 96 volt electric vehicle last fall. I have
just asked him to join the EVDL and report candidly on his experience. I
hope we will see his report soon but it's up to him. This balancer
installation was done at time of original conversion so there won't be a
dramatic report of increased driving range, and there hasn't been enough
time for a report of increased battery lifetime.
Mick says: Most of my background is in the solar-electric world where I
have
made a number of BattEQ sales plus some interesting test results. I've
been
in the backyard energy business over 20 years and have a good reputation
which could be confirmed by doing a google for "mick abraham" + solar. I
sell retail to end users and I can also sell BattEQ wholesale to bona-fide
technicians in the alternative energy and electric vehicle fields.
[Mick says:] The skepticism expressed on the List does not frighten me; I
too have become somewhat jaded about the "next big thing". I simply ask
that
the group remain open minded and not dismiss BattEQ based on theory or
speculation. It's fairly easy to do some testing to see if it meets the
claims or not, and I extend a 30 day return privilege on all BattEQ sales.
(15% restock fee plus shipping, but other than that it's a free trial.) I
have had no returns so far and no product failures so far.
Philippe Borges said that he has an LA-50 device for experimentation. This
was not purchased from me, but I'm all for testing. The LA-50 2 channel
unit
is particularly appropriate for head to head comparison with the
PowerCheq(TM) from powerdesigners.com
Philippe: I developed some suggested test procedures for that unit as part
of my earlier conversation with Lee Hart. If you'd like to see that
document, contact me off list. I would be pleased to discuss testing
methodology with other EVDL members on list or off.
Bear in mind that some trial methods may not fairly show the BattEQ
benefit,
and I will try to point those out if I see them. BattEQ is not a cure for
cancer and I'm trying to keep my enthusiasm in check. Based on what I've
seen, however, this technology deserves close investigation by people who
are seeking relief from the battery blues.
Mick Abraham
www.abrahamsolar.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There was a website someone posted which made coatings for glass that
kept the car from getting hot in the sun.
Keep the infrared radiation out and you don't need to worry so much
about cooling.
On Sat, 3 Mar 2007 1:58 pm, Jeff Shanab wrote:
Maybe we shouldn't try to cool the car. just the person. The human
already has a built in system for re-distributing heat in the body.
Race car drivers have a vest and or helmet pad with water flowing thru
it. This goes to a small pump in a little ice chest with a 1/2 block of
ice. I have seen them race hours with this in 100+ temps.
Fresno gets very hot, but usually quiet dry. My first test this summer
is to see how long ice can last. I am gonna take a dozen 20oz diet coke
bottles. It is an understatement to say I have a few of those around.
They are curvy, creating room for air flow. I will buy an ice-chest and
cut a hole for a 120mm 12V fan and place the bottles 3/4 full of water
and frozen in there and set it in the passenger seat or on the
passenger
seat floor.
The problem is I don't need Ait conditioning on the way to work, I need
it on the way home. exactly backwards of where the freezer and charger
is :-(
This may be what to do with solar panels on the roof. run fans and/or
whatever micro AC you can make effient enough for such a small scale.
This is NOT Peltier, probably ammonia absorption.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So, I have the Festiva, and I'm driving it on the 96 V pack of 12 V Deka Group
24's that are way past their usable life. Even with the Curtis controller,
easier on the batts than the GE EV-1, I'm getting only about 4.5 mile range. I
was getting about 3.25 with the EV-1. Those batts are 80 AH at a 20 A
discharge rate. Derate about 50% for EV discharge rate and not killing them,
that's 40 AH. Voltage varies between 105 (full) and 98 (totally dead). I try
not to go below 100 V. So, about 4kW-hr of usable energy. The car is 2200 lb.
I'd say 300 Wh-hr / mile. So, with a brand new pack on a bright sunny day
here in GA, I should be able to safely go 13 miles. Really, that is pretty
lame for a pack that must cost about $1200. In flooded, the pack is about
$550. Flooded has its own issues. Like parking on a slight grade and trying
to charge the batts when the plates aren't evenly covered ... My flooded batts
are actually set in at a very slight angle to match the
grade of the driveway. I literally used a level to put them in the car.
So, I could spend $1200 on a fresh set of the Deka Group 24, and some day, it
may come to that if no one comes up with a decent battery solution.
For now, I bought one (soon to get a second) 12 V / 120 Ah (at 20 A
discharge) battery for $65. I also bought a 700 Watt inverter off ebay for a
buck. I put the batts in my car, run the inverter, through my BC-20 and try as
best as I can to keep the pack charged.
I drive that whole 2 miles to work. Let it sit and recharge itself off the
spare batts, go out for lunch, let it charge itself, back to work, more self
charging off the aux batt, and back home. I should be able to get 8.5 miles
(as long as I don't go more than 4 miles in any given 2 hour period). That is
OK, because when I go somewhere, I am usually there for a few hours. It's like
driving with a 4 mile range and plugging in all the time, every time you stop.
Not a great solution, but it cost only $150 and I got a 8.5 mile range (I
think) and I didn't have to drop $1200 on a new set of Dekas yet. It may last
6 months or a year like this. Maybe only a few weeks. Either way, it was
worth a try.
This got me into other stuff. I am working on replacing my lead acid
secondary pack with NiMH. Again, limit the discharge rate. I could put in a
3300 Watt inverter if I wanted to ... But, not use them as the primary motive
force. A friend lent me some 13 Ah F cells (40 of them) to play with. I was
going to try 4 sets of 10 each of those in parallel with my one lead acid 120
AH aux battery. That would be 12 V / 172 Ah (at a 20 A discharge rate).
I also have 850 1.2 V / 1.6 AH NiMH cells that I picked up 2 years ago when I
started the last Festiva project. I could maybe do something with those as
well.
I looked at prices, and it seems like I can get flooded lead (not Trojan
though) for $0.045 per Watt-hr. Again, that is low discharge rate, not Optimas
or anything EV worthy. I can get NiMH for about $0.31 per Watt-hr. I don't
even dare price Li Ion, but my best bet would be DeWalt packs off E-bay. I'm
not comfortable making a BMS for those, so I'll stick with NiMH. I believe you
can get one of those 36 V LiIon packs for about $100 on e-bay. Again, the BMS
is the issue.
Where am I going with all this? Maybe a good solution is like what I have -
8 x 12 V AGM +
a 5000 Watt-Hr aux pack of NiMH (or Li Ion) and a 3300 Watt inverter.
I think you could get an easy real 30 mile range and some decent performance.
I am not a fan of flooded lead golf cart batts at all. Why? Years of cars
with poor acceleration. It wasn't until I got the super light car and the AGMs
that I got acceptable (to me that is) performance.
With my soultion, you can also add an alternator on the tail shaft of the
motor (geared appropriately for charging at very slow motor RPM) and kick it on
when the start switch is off to charge the aux batt that goes through the
inverter / charger ... and back to the pack. Efficiency of that whole system
maybe 65% (with the alternator and all) Worth it? I don't know.
I'm open to comments, suggestions?
Steve
---------------------------------
Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and
always stay connected to friends.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I like carloc tubing the best, hung by aluminum hose brackets. Ids flexible,
durable, and comes in a few sizes with connectors and is typically used as a
conduit for wiring in moisture laden areas such as hot tubs and pools. Any
electrical supply or even home improvement center should have.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 5:01 PM
Subject: Re: Best way to run battery cables
From: Frank John
What do folks generally do when running battery cables from the boxes
(on the rear of a small pickup in this case) up to the controller/motor
area?
Treat them as you would any home electrical wiring. Normal electrical
codes are a good practice. Install them so they do not touch anything that
can burn, or any metal that isn't grounded, and so they cannot be touched
by people or animals.
I prefer to run metal conduit under the car, and feed the cables through
it. This provides shielding and physical protection from road debris,
rodents, and other hazards.
If your cables won't be exposed, then bundling them with tie-wraps (and
twisting together where possible) is acceptable.
--
Lee Hart
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
if you put the alt on the tail of the motor wire in a circuit off your brake
system that put field volt on the alt when ui step on the brake and use for
regen no field volt durning drive and free wheeling alt, =min. drag could
get 5% regen as opposed to 10% with a ac motors regen .???? just a thought
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Powers<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 7:41 PM
Subject: My latest attempt to get a few extra miles ... never seen this one
done before
So, I have the Festiva, and I'm driving it on the 96 V pack of 12 V Deka
Group 24's that are way past their usable life. Even with the Curtis
controller, easier on the batts than the GE EV-1, I'm getting only about 4.5
mile range. I was getting about 3.25 with the EV-1. Those batts are 80 AH at
a 20 A discharge rate. Derate about 50% for EV discharge rate and not killing
them, that's 40 AH. Voltage varies between 105 (full) and 98 (totally dead).
I try not to go below 100 V. So, about 4kW-hr of usable energy. The car is
2200 lb. I'd say 300 Wh-hr / mile. So, with a brand new pack on a bright
sunny day here in GA, I should be able to safely go 13 miles. Really, that is
pretty lame for a pack that must cost about $1200. In flooded, the pack is
about $550. Flooded has its own issues. Like parking on a slight grade and
trying to charge the batts when the plates aren't evenly covered ... My
flooded batts are actually set in at a very slight angle to match the
grade of the driveway. I literally used a level to put them in the car.
So, I could spend $1200 on a fresh set of the Deka Group 24, and some day,
it may come to that if no one comes up with a decent battery solution.
For now, I bought one (soon to get a second) 12 V / 120 Ah (at 20 A
discharge) battery for $65. I also bought a 700 Watt inverter off ebay for a
buck. I put the batts in my car, run the inverter, through my BC-20 and try as
best as I can to keep the pack charged.
I drive that whole 2 miles to work. Let it sit and recharge itself off the
spare batts, go out for lunch, let it charge itself, back to work, more self
charging off the aux batt, and back home. I should be able to get 8.5 miles
(as long as I don't go more than 4 miles in any given 2 hour period). That is
OK, because when I go somewhere, I am usually there for a few hours. It's like
driving with a 4 mile range and plugging in all the time, every time you stop.
Not a great solution, but it cost only $150 and I got a 8.5 mile range (I
think) and I didn't have to drop $1200 on a new set of Dekas yet. It may last
6 months or a year like this. Maybe only a few weeks. Either way, it was
worth a try.
This got me into other stuff. I am working on replacing my lead acid
secondary pack with NiMH. Again, limit the discharge rate. I could put in a
3300 Watt inverter if I wanted to ... But, not use them as the primary motive
force. A friend lent me some 13 Ah F cells (40 of them) to play with. I was
going to try 4 sets of 10 each of those in parallel with my one lead acid 120
AH aux battery. That would be 12 V / 172 Ah (at a 20 A discharge rate).
I also have 850 1.2 V / 1.6 AH NiMH cells that I picked up 2 years ago when
I started the last Festiva project. I could maybe do something with those as
well.
I looked at prices, and it seems like I can get flooded lead (not Trojan
though) for $0.045 per Watt-hr. Again, that is low discharge rate, not Optimas
or anything EV worthy. I can get NiMH for about $0.31 per Watt-hr. I don't
even dare price Li Ion, but my best bet would be DeWalt packs off E-bay. I'm
not comfortable making a BMS for those, so I'll stick with NiMH. I believe you
can get one of those 36 V LiIon packs for about $100 on e-bay. Again, the BMS
is the issue.
Where am I going with all this? Maybe a good solution is like what I have
-
8 x 12 V AGM +
a 5000 Watt-Hr aux pack of NiMH (or Li Ion) and a 3300 Watt inverter.
I think you could get an easy real 30 mile range and some decent
performance. I am not a fan of flooded lead golf cart batts at all. Why?
Years of cars with poor acceleration. It wasn't until I got the super light
car and the AGMs that I got acceptable (to me that is) performance.
With my soultion, you can also add an alternator on the tail shaft of the
motor (geared appropriately for charging at very slow motor RPM) and kick it on
when the start switch is off to charge the aux batt that goes through the
inverter / charger ... and back to the pack. Efficiency of that whole system
maybe 65% (with the alternator and all) Worth it? I don't know.
I'm open to comments, suggestions?
Steve
---------------------------------
Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and
always stay connected to friends.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
More than one person has asked, so I took a few photos of the chain
drive system on the KillaCycle and put them up on the KillaCycle web
site. Look in the Photos, Motor Details section:
http://www.killacycle.com/photos/
Bill Dube'
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Huh? No wonder you are getting so little range. You can safely drive a
96V pack until it drops to 84V. If you only drive until it drops to 100V
then you are barely taking the surface charge off the pack.
When the pack gets to the end of it's life you can drive a 96V pack down
to 75-80V. It's pretty much shot anyway, so you can't hurt it.
But this doesn't apply to your pack, apparently you haven't even stressed
it yet. It should have plenty of life left.
> So, I have the Festiva, and I'm driving it on the 96 V pack of 12 V Deka
> Group 24's that are way past their usable life. Even with the Curtis
> controller, easier on the batts than the GE EV-1, I'm getting only about
> 4.5 mile range. I was getting about 3.25 with the EV-1. Those batts are
> 80 AH at a 20 A discharge rate. Derate about 50% for EV discharge rate
> and not killing them, that's 40 AH. Voltage varies between 105 (full) and
> 98 (totally dead). I try not to go below 100 V. So, about 4kW-hr of
> usable energy. The car is 2200 lb. I'd say 300 Wh-hr / mile. So, with a
> brand new pack on a bright sunny day here in GA, I should be able to
> safely go 13 miles. Really, that is pretty lame for a pack that must cost
> about $1200. In flooded, the pack is about $550. Flooded has its own
> issues. Like parking on a slight grade and trying to charge the batts
> when the plates aren't evenly covered ... My flooded batts are actually
> set in at a very slight angle to match the
> grade of the driveway. I literally used a level to put them in the car.
>
> So, I could spend $1200 on a fresh set of the Deka Group 24, and some
> day, it may come to that if no one comes up with a decent battery
> solution.
>
> For now, I bought one (soon to get a second) 12 V / 120 Ah (at 20 A
> discharge) battery for $65. I also bought a 700 Watt inverter off ebay
> for a buck. I put the batts in my car, run the inverter, through my
> BC-20 and try as best as I can to keep the pack charged.
>
> I drive that whole 2 miles to work. Let it sit and recharge itself off
> the spare batts, go out for lunch, let it charge itself, back to work,
> more self charging off the aux batt, and back home. I should be able to
> get 8.5 miles (as long as I don't go more than 4 miles in any given 2
> hour period). That is OK, because when I go somewhere, I am usually
> there for a few hours. It's like driving with a 4 mile range and
> plugging in all the time, every time you stop. Not a great solution,
> but it cost only $150 and I got a 8.5 mile range (I think) and I didn't
> have to drop $1200 on a new set of Dekas yet. It may last 6 months or a
> year like this. Maybe only a few weeks. Either way, it was worth a
> try.
>
> This got me into other stuff. I am working on replacing my lead acid
> secondary pack with NiMH. Again, limit the discharge rate. I could put
> in a 3300 Watt inverter if I wanted to ... But, not use them as the
> primary motive force. A friend lent me some 13 Ah F cells (40 of them)
> to play with. I was going to try 4 sets of 10 each of those in parallel
> with my one lead acid 120 AH aux battery. That would be 12 V / 172 Ah
> (at a 20 A discharge rate).
>
> I also have 850 1.2 V / 1.6 AH NiMH cells that I picked up 2 years ago
> when I started the last Festiva project. I could maybe do something
> with those as well.
>
> I looked at prices, and it seems like I can get flooded lead (not Trojan
> though) for $0.045 per Watt-hr. Again, that is low discharge rate, not
> Optimas or anything EV worthy. I can get NiMH for about $0.31 per
> Watt-hr. I don't even dare price Li Ion, but my best bet would be
> DeWalt packs off E-bay. I'm not comfortable making a BMS for those, so
> I'll stick with NiMH. I believe you can get one of those 36 V LiIon
> packs for about $100 on e-bay. Again, the BMS is the issue.
>
> Where am I going with all this? Maybe a good solution is like what I
> have -
>
> 8 x 12 V AGM +
> a 5000 Watt-Hr aux pack of NiMH (or Li Ion) and a 3300 Watt inverter.
>
> I think you could get an easy real 30 mile range and some decent
> performance. I am not a fan of flooded lead golf cart batts at all.
> Why? Years of cars with poor acceleration. It wasn't until I got the
> super light car and the AGMs that I got acceptable (to me that is)
> performance.
>
> With my soultion, you can also add an alternator on the tail shaft of
> the motor (geared appropriately for charging at very slow motor RPM) and
> kick it on when the start switch is off to charge the aux batt that goes
> through the inverter / charger ... and back to the pack. Efficiency of
> that whole system maybe 65% (with the alternator and all) Worth it? I
> don't know.
>
> I'm open to comments, suggestions?
>
> Steve
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and
> always stay connected to friends.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
To avoid electromagnetic fields, is it necessary to put cables inside a
STEEL tube, or is any metal(non magnetic) enough? Thanks
JJ
> I like carloc tubing the best, hung by aluminum hose brackets. Ids
> flexible, durable, and comes in a few sizes with connectors and is
> typically used as a conduit for wiring in moisture laden areas such as
> hot tubs and pools. Any electrical supply or even home improvement
> center should have.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 5:01 PM
> Subject: Re: Best way to run battery cables
>
>
>> From: Frank John
>>> What do folks generally do when running battery cables from the boxes
>>> (on the rear of a small pickup in this case) up to the
>>> controller/motor area?
>>
>> Treat them as you would any home electrical wiring. Normal electrical
>> codes are a good practice. Install them so they do not touch anything
>> that can burn, or any metal that isn't grounded, and so they cannot
>> be touched by people or animals.
>>
>> I prefer to run metal conduit under the car, and feed the cables
>> through it. This provides shielding and physical protection from road
>> debris, rodents, and other hazards.
>>
>> If your cables won't be exposed, then bundling them with tie-wraps
>> (and twisting together where possible) is acceptable.
>> --
>> Lee Hart
>>
>>
--- End Message ---
