EV Digest 6476
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Blind EV's
by "Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Wide vs Skinny Tires LRR
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Zilla for the newbie?
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Nicad mixing
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Nicad mixing
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Nicad update
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: White Zombie - Electric Muscle Car T-shirts soon available
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Blind EV's
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Nicad update
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Zilla for the newbie?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dana Havranek)
11) Re: Nicad mixing
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Regenerative suspension
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Please get us some more cars to plug in!
by nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Nicad update
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Zilla for the newbie
by Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: White Zombie - Electric Muscle Car T-shirts soon available
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: ZIF Recommendation
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Blind EV's
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: ZIF Recommendation
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Blind EV's
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Howdy folk's,
I heard on NPR last week that blind groups were lobbying congress to require
hybrid & EV manufacturers to put noisemakers on their vehicles. NPR recorded
various cars going by and compared it to a Prius in electric mode and their
test subject (a blind person) had to be pulled back from stepping out in front
of the vehicle. Toyota claims they are looking into it (whatever that means).
The announcer said we could have cow bells on the vehicles. I don't want to
have to put baseball cards in the spokes of my wheels though.
Of course turning down your controller frequency to 1.5kHz does the trick, at
least I'm not the major cause of road-kill anymore in Roanoke, VA. (Also the
controller runs more efficirntly/cooler).
Have a renewable energy day,
Mark
---------------------------------
Don't pick lemons.
See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bicycle tires are often skinny - but that should not lead to the conclusion
that narrower car tires have lower rolling resistance.
Here is why road bicyclists ( especially racers) often use skinny tires:
1. Air drag is VERY important in a bycycle - the entire tire is exposed,
and the tire frontal area is a much larger percentage of the total vehicle
frontal area.
2. Tire weight is important - skinny tires ( and the skinny wheels that go
with them) are lighter in weight. For racing, acceleration is VERY
important. The added rotational mass of the wider tires ( and wheels) would
hurt acceleration.
3. Skinny tires allow for higher pressures ( for the same tire carcass
strength) and this reduces the rolling resistance. The stress ( lbs per
inch of width) in a tire carcass is directly proportional to both the air
pressure and the tire cross sectional diameter. So, if you double the width
( cross section diameter) of a tire, and keep the carcass strength the same,
you have to reduce the pressure to half. And, strengthening the carcass (
so you could maintain the same pressure) would generally make it stiffer and
increase rolling resistance that way ( as well as add weight to the tire)
In a car tire, the carcass is always strong enough ( for safety reasons)
anyway so that tire size does not limit the maximum tire pressure. And,
you would not want to drive a car with 100- 150 psi in the tires anyway
(that is typical for tires on road bikes).
Lastly, the lowest tested rolling resistance bicycle tire - according to all
the testing I've seen- is the Tioga Comp Pool. It's a 20 x 1.75 tire (
originally made for BMX bikes) that is widely used on recumbent bicycles.
Recumbent bikes often have smaller diameter wheels, so the air drag is less
of a factor. Also, to most recumbent drivers, acceleration is less
important than total drag.
I have these tires on my recumbent. ( human powered)
Phil
From: xx xx <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Wide vs Skinny Tires LRR
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 06:07:24 -0800 (PST)
As a fairly obvious example of less rolling resistance
in skinny tires look at bicycles. Racers use super
thin high pressure tires, even though wider tires
would give better high speed cornering ability. Why?
Because of less rolling resistance and lower weight.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com
_________________________________________________________________
Win a Zunemake MSN® your homepage for your chance to win!
http://homepage.msn.com/zune?icid=hmetagline
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 2/26/07, David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 26 Feb 2007 at 5:50, Jeff Shanab wrote:
> I
> have experimented with a few cooling systems ...
I realize that many EVDL are trying to save money, but may I suggest a pump
that's designed for continuous use? Here are a couple :
http://metricmind.com/water.htm
The Bosch pumps are exceptional - two are fitted to my EV and they run
all the time during driving *and* charging (so that could be 8 hours
per day or more). My vehicle has 53,000 miles and is 8 years old,
with the original pumps.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sure it can be done, but it is full of gotcha's. It's actually not all that
uncommon of a thing to do for testing purposes. For instance if you have
lead acid based vehicle already and you are considering using some form of
Nicad and you want some real world test data, just put a sample NiCad in the
string and monitor it to see how it performs.
For general use it is a bad idea however, because it is hard to give each
type of battery the right care. You will need a way to monitor each
different type of battery and make sure that they are getting the proper
charge and not being over discharged. Also NiCad and Lead Acid are a
particularly bad mix because their electrolytes are on opposite ends of the
PH scale with one be full of acid and the other full of a base. You have to
be careful not to contaminate the two which is most easily done by keeping
them physically separatated and having separate sets of tools for each.
This is often hard to achieve if they are snuggled together in a common
battery pack.
I have done all of the above, but only for testing purposes or with
batteries that I really did not care about, and only for short times, but in
a pinch a battery is a battery, and if you understand the needs of each of
your batteries and provide them proper care then it's just basic electronics
after that.
damon
From: Tom Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Nicad mixing
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 22:03:55 +0000
Does anyone know if I can mix and match differnt types of nicads in
series or parallel? Not whilst charging just for discharge.
Specifically what will happen if the following cells are combined in
series? in parallel?
Alcads rated 230Ah at the 5 hours rate (about 100Ah at one hour)
Nife cells rated 80Ah at the one hour rate
Saft STM100 -100Ah at one hour
>From what I have read (saft and alcad data) there shouldn't be a
problem, the batteries may discharge/charge which will slightly shorten
their life but doesn't cause too much damage. Have I understood
correctly?
I have another question which is probably really stupid, what happens if
you connect lead and nicad batteries in series?
thanks for any help
_________________________________________________________________
Win a Zunemake MSN® your homepage for your chance to win!
http://homepage.msn.com/zune?icid=hmetagline
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mixin dissimilar batteries in parallel is typically very problematic.
I mean, say you have a 12.9V battery and put it in parallel with a 12.3V
battery of a different tech. The higher voltage will typically
discharge straight into the lower one. It may overcharge the lower
voltage pack. That's just a function of charging current vs charging
voltage for one battery and discharge current vs output voltage for the
other. Put the two graphs together and you can see what the current is.
So next idea is put a diode in series with each battery to ensure each
series string can only discharge. The 12.9V battery won't discharge
into the 12.3V. However, what happens is the diode won't forward bias
(turn on) for the 12.3V pack at all until the 12.9V pack sags below
12.3V due to either low charge state or high current draws.
It would generally take some sort of specially designed "smart"
controller to turn on one string and then the other to try to use two
dissimilar battery techs together. Note that the switching transistor
to handle high voltage hundreds of amps is the hard part of any
controller and that would mean building multiple transistor arrays, one
for each string.
Danny
Tom Ward wrote:
Does anyone know if I can mix and match differnt types of nicads in
series or parallel? Not whilst charging just for discharge.
Specifically what will happen if the following cells are combined in
series? in parallel?
Alcads rated 230Ah at the 5 hours rate (about 100Ah at one hour)
Nife cells rated 80Ah at the one hour rate
Saft STM100 -100Ah at one hour
From what I have read (saft and alcad data) there shouldn't be a
problem, the batteries may discharge/charge which will slightly shorten
their life but doesn't cause too much damage. Have I understood
correctly?
I have another question which is probably really stupid, what happens if
you connect lead and nicad batteries in series?
thanks for any help
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jerry,
I am running two slightly different models of the BB600, all from
Saft. The redtop and the greentop. The greentops have a bit more
capacity and also hold more water.
The manual for these cells says to recharge them to 120-140% of what
was removed from them. Right now the charger takes them to 1.587 volts
per cell. That's not too high. What voltage do you take your cells to?
As for the range, I have pulled 37ah from a 40 ah pack. So they are
making their rating. Since my truck pulls about 1C-2C from these cells
in normal driving, I tend to get the factory ratings out of them.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Mike and All,
> You can cut watering by only equalizing
> only every 5 or so charges and only charging up to 90% the
> other times if you don't need the full range though the
> range looks short as it is. I cut my watering 75% that way.
> Are you mixing different BB600's? By
> different manufactures? if so balancing could be strange,
> hard to do and may be why one set needs more watering as
> they might be getting overcharged.
>
>
> ----- Original Message Follows -----
> From: Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: EVDL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Nicad update
> Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 19:24:00 -0800 (PST)
>
> >The BB600 nicad pack has a couple hundred miles since that
> >last massive watering. Only 4 redtops were lower by 1/8"
> >compared to the other redtops. So they got more water to
> >level them off. None of the greentops were low at all. This
> >is significant because they only went 450 miles on a
> >watering last time. Since I'm half way to that point again,
> >it's nice to see the levels are up high. This is mainly due
> >to the reduction in charge time of around 75%. Also
> >doubling the amount of water in the cells is helpful too.
> >No spillage from any of the cells being so full. I'm
> >expecting at least 1500 miles between waterings now. We'll
> >see. The garage is strangely silent as the truck shuts off
> >about an hour after the pack is full at 5 hours max. The
> >truck use to run about 12-20 hours per day.
> >
> >This week the nicad pack has 3000 miles in it. Range is
> >fine at about 10kwhrs max. I've done several 30 miles runs.
> >The Emeter says my average run is still 15.5 miles.
> >
> >The truck has also been in my possesion for 2 years as of
> >this month. I've added 8000 miles to it. After having 104
> >lead acid Hawkers, then the Prius pack, these nicads are
> >the best so far. In fact so good I've gotten completely
> >lazy about getting a BMS going for it.
>
> I don't know why you would need a BMS for flooded
> ni-cads. My smaller 30 yr old SAFT versions stayed better
> balanced than any other battery I've ever owned.
> Best charging is a dumb charger turned off by an E
> meter after the required charge is put back in in amphrs,
> 90% of removed amphrs after an equalizing charge and 100%
> after that for 4-5 cycles, 110% equalize, repeat.
>
> It's just such a a
> >joy to drive that I spend time on my other projects.
> >
> >Here are the pics from the pack exploding due to excess
> >hydrogen buildup in the battery box.
> >http://www.rotordesign.com/s10/nicads/
>
> That's a sign of possible overcharging or just bad
> ventilation. Beware outside cells of the pack can be very
> different temp wise and lead to overheating the center cells
> on charging, especially overcharging though in Alaska now
> that probably isn't a problem but could happen in an
> insulated batt box. Been there, done that.
> I assume you have them restrained so the cells can't
> expand as they will without the restraints required?
> They are excellent batteries, especially in the
> colder climates and replace expensive AGM's, especially in
> high voltage single strings.
> I'm going to call local chome shops today to get
> some copper interconnects plated with nickle so I can use
> the BB600's I have.
> Jerry Dycus
> >
> >I really need to get the battery box lid flattened out
> >more. It's letting road dust and maybe moisture into the
> >pack.
> >
> >Mike
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey John, Chip, all
Fun stuff! Being you had told me about this and Chip
had just written me I got a little sneak peek
yesterday 8^P I told Chip he should blacken out a
tooth (for that true Oregon hick look) before sending
it to you, LMAO so hard!!!
I've actually been pestering Chip to do me up a
Hi-Torque shirt thinking I could barter him up a motor
or something. I see you got yours first so I see how
I rate, hehehe!!!
Anyway I think he did a great job (being the material
he had to work with)(LMAO). BTW I doubt he had a
whole lot in art supplies but I bet he's got some
hours into that pup!
Fun stuff, you'll have to put me down for one.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
--- John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello to All,
>
> I'm sooooo excited that my friend Chip Gribben has
> designed a new
> T-shirt for me! For those unaware, Chip is 'the'
> force behind all of the
> coolest looking cartoon artwork that has transformed
> NEDRA the past few
> years. From the Power of DC, to Battery Beach
> Burnout, to the Late Night
> Nationals, they're all Chip's handiwork. After
> seeing his rendition of
> White Zombie alongside Gone Postal on the Late Night
> Nationals design, I
> just knew I had to have White Zombie T-shirts.
> Rather than tell everyone
> how great it looks, simply go to
> http://www.plasmaboyracing.com, then
> click on the 'Photos' button. Tomorrow, I'll be at a
> local T-shirt
> printer to have the first dozen shirts made up, so
> the Plasma Boy team
> can wear them at this weekend's 'Portland Roadster
> Show.
>
> Make sure to post back to the EVDL and let Chip know
> what you all think!
> When available for sale, all profits will go to Chip
> to help cover his
> art supply costs. Chip has never asked for anything
> in return for all
> his efforts, I just think we need to support this
> great EVer.
>
> See Ya......John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't pick lemons.
See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 26 Feb 2007 at 6:38, Mark E. Hanson wrote:
> I heard on NPR last week that blind groups were lobbying congress to require
> hybrid & EV manufacturers to put noisemakers on their vehicles.
This was discussed extensively about 2 weeks ago on the EVDL. I think we
pretty well beat it to death, so further whacking probably isn't helpful. ;-
)
Check the archives for more info.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mike and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "jerryd" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Nicad update
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 15:20:50 -0000
>Hi Jerry,
>
>I am running two slightly different models of the BB600,
>all from Saft. The redtop and the greentop. The greentops
>have a bit more capacity and also hold more water.
I just checked and mine are SAFT red top, blue capped,
BB600A/A that was part of the batch I think Hump did. I
think they will be the first battery in the Freedom EV.
>
>The manual for these cells says to recharge them to
>120-140% of what was removed from them. Right now the
>charger takes them to 1.587 volts per cell. That's not too
>high. What voltage do you take your cells to?
Do you use an E meter to control your charger or how
do you charge?
I think the 120-140% is rather high, is that just for
the initializing charges? Or equalizing or for all? Why is
you will be wasting an awlful lot of electricity at that
rate and overheating them. That 20-40% extra has to go
somewhere and gets turned to heat. And a big way to produce
a lot of H2/02 may explain your bang.
To equalize I charged to 1.65/cell but only did that
every 5 cycles or without any balancing problems. And about
1.5-1.55 between equalizing charges. Be careful using this
as it can rise above that, then drop off as it becomes too
charged so voltage other than the 90% dischage is not a good
judge of state of charge unless you are tracking it and even
then can be tricky as one cell rises as another gets
overcharged and falls, making the knee hard to detect.
This voltage dropping when charged can cause reg
chargers to cause a thermal runaway where the more they
charge, the lower the batts voltage drops, drawing more
curent until one drys out or the whole pack melts. Luckily
one usually dries out, been there, done that when you forget
they are charging ;^p They survived this amazingly well.
Best is an in-out amphr meter like the E meter or
Lee's future E dash.
I was discharging them, 14 amphr SAFT cells,
probably 4c-6c peak, 2c run and charging them about 1c. I
discharged them until the voltage started dropping off,
which happens about 90% down as I could pedal home, most
times which was about a weeks worth of e biking to the
store. Mine were 27+ yrs old when I got them and put out
more than rated power as most of them still do. Even
mismatched cells played well if I didn't go below the
weakest cell's capacity.
I abused mine because they were old, free and I
wanted to see, or forgot they were charging, what they would
take and they take quite a lot!!!
>
>As for the range, I have pulled 37ah from a 40 ah pack. So
>they are making their rating. Since my truck pulls about
>1C-2C from these cells in normal driving, I tend to get the
>factory ratings out of them.
My SAFT BB600's are 30amphr rated but everyone has
been getting 40 amphr out of them. They underate them so
they will pass the Mil spec they are made to is what's
probably happening.
Jerry Dycus
>
>Mike
>
>
>
>--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>wrote:
>>
>> Hi Mike and All,
>> You can cut watering by only equalizing
>> only every 5 or so charges and only charging up to 90%
>> the other times if you don't need the full range though
>> the range looks short as it is. I cut my watering 75%
>> that way. Are you mixing different
>> BB600's? By different manufactures? if so balancing could
>> be strange, hard to do and may be why one set needs more
>> watering as they might be getting overcharged.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message Follows -----
>> From: Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: EVDL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Subject: Nicad update
>> Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 19:24:00 -0800 (PST)
>>
>> >The BB600 nicad pack has a couple hundred miles since
>> >that last massive watering. Only 4 redtops were lower by
>> >1/8" compared to the other redtops. So they got more
>> >water to level them off. None of the greentops were low
>> >at all. This is significant because they only went 450
>> >miles on a watering last time. Since I'm half way to
>> >that point again, it's nice to see the levels are up
>> >high. This is mainly due to the reduction in charge time
>> >of around 75%. Also doubling the amount of water in the
>> >cells is helpful too. No spillage from any of the cells
>> >being so full. I'm expecting at least 1500 miles between
>> >waterings now. We'll see. The garage is strangely silent
>> >as the truck shuts off about an hour after the pack is
>> >full at 5 hours max. The truck use to run about 12-20
>> >hours per day.
>> >This week the nicad pack has 3000 miles in it. Range is
>> >fine at about 10kwhrs max. I've done several 30 miles
>> >runs. The Emeter says my average run is still 15.5
>> >miles.
>> >The truck has also been in my possesion for 2 years as
>> >of this month. I've added 8000 miles to it. After having
>> >104 lead acid Hawkers, then the Prius pack, these nicads
>> >are the best so far. In fact so good I've gotten
>> >completely lazy about getting a BMS going for it.
>>
>> I don't know why you would need a BMS for
>> flooded ni-cads. My smaller 30 yr old SAFT versions
>> stayed better balanced than any other battery I've ever
>> owned. Best charging is a dumb charger turned
>> off by an E meter after the required charge is put back
>> in in amphrs, 90% of removed amphrs after an equalizing
>> charge and 100% after that for 4-5 cycles, 110% equalize,
>> repeat.
>> It's just such a a
>> >joy to drive that I spend time on my other projects.
>> >
>> >Here are the pics from the pack exploding due to excess
>> >hydrogen buildup in the battery box.
>> >http://www.rotordesign.com/s10/nicads/
>>
>> That's a sign of possible overcharging or just
>> bad ventilation. Beware outside cells of the pack can be
>> very different temp wise and lead to overheating the
>> center cells on charging, especially overcharging though
>> in Alaska now that probably isn't a problem but could
>> happen in an insulated batt box. Been there, done that.
>> I assume you have them restrained so the cells
>> can't expand as they will without the restraints
>> required? They are excellent batteries,
>> especially in the colder climates and replace expensive
>> AGM's, especially in high voltage single strings.
>> I'm going to call local chome shops today to get
>> some copper interconnects plated with nickle so I can use
>> the BB600's I have.
>> Jerry Dycus
>> >
>> >I really need to get the battery box lid flattened out
>> >more. It's letting road dust and maybe moisture into the
>> >pack.
>> >
>> >Mike
>> >
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ya, I tried a Jabsco pump used for something on boats.
A small one.
Too noisy and broke the little plastic outlet port off.
They say it's rated continuous, but it was not a good choice.
Tried some other pumps too. Big thing is the noise.
Same thing with vacuum pumps.
You get a couple of noisy pumps under the hood and the car is much noiser than
a stock ICE car.
Ended up with a great little 12 volt computer coolant pump that just began
showing up in computer stores.
The speed is adjustable and it's simple.
Been running great.
I run the coolant through the old radiator overflow and a transmission oil
cooler that gets a little cool air now and then.
I have never felt the coolant anymore than luke warm. Don't worry much about it
anymore.
It stays primed with a head off the the tank through - I doubt the pump would
prime itself.
Dana
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> I have a 4000lb vehicle pushed by a warp 9 mated to the stock tranny. I
> have experimented with a few cooling systems
>
> 1) I bought a jabsco water pump from the boat store. This provided a
> good amount of water flow using the old radiator overflow tank and a
> tranny cooler for a radiator.
> It was noisy, pulled a lot of amps, and running it 40 min a day, 20 min
> at a time, exceeded it's duty cycle and it started making even more
> noise after a few monthes.
>
> 2) I got a swiftech MCP-350. Quiet, low current but very hard to keep
> primed and I found that it wasn't enough cooling in the summer or on
> very long trips. I repolaced it with a MCP 650. Much better but on a
> 12 mile freeway drive it overheated and shut down a 1/2 block after a
> stoplight. I don't have a fan on the radiator and I suspect when I
> stopped moving it warmed up a little, then when I pulled the
> acceleration amps it over heated.
>
> Will try a 120mm Fan this summer, maybe a bigger pump or a second
> pump.(redundency and scalability)
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Tom and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Tom Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Nicad mixing
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 22:03:55 +0000
>Does anyone know if I can mix and match differnt types of
>nicads in series or parallel? Not whilst charging just for
>discharge.
Not well because they are so different. If using a
CC there may be a way. What numbers of which batts do you
have and what EV, it's specs, are you putting it in?
>
>Specifically what will happen if the following cells are
>combined in series? in parallel?
>Alcads rated 230Ah at the 5 hours rate (about 100Ah at one
hour)
These sound like low current UPS cells and don't
work well with higher power nicad cells or in EV's.
Nife cells rated 80Ah at the one hour rate
They have higher internal resistance and large
voltage sag, cap loss/day. But good cap. Some of them are
90+yrs old and still working in some EV's from then
including Jay Leno's Baker Electric.
>Saft STM100 -100Ah at one hour
Great up to 250 amp peaks.
>
>>From what I have read (saft and alcad data) there
>shouldn't be a problem, the batteries may discharge/charge
>which will slightly shorten their life but doesn't cause
>too much damage. Have I understood correctly?
No. Not at all.
>
>I have another question which is probably really stupid,
>what happens if you connect lead and nicad batteries in
>series?
One will die first, reversing cells, not good.
>
>thanks for any help
>
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On Feb 26, 2007, at 1:58 AM, David Roden wrote:
On 25 Feb 2007 at 0:22, Michael Perry wrote:
Toyota had a high performance mode in some of their cars (push the
button and
engine/tranny were changed to a different mode) and the same could
follow for
the electric shock.
Interesting thoughts, but I think you need a different name for this
gadget.
"Electric shock" carries some undesirable connotations.
Has anyone mentioned "rheomagnetic shocks" in this thread yet? I've
not been paying very close attention. Anyway, worth a Google.
FWIW, I think
they're called "dampers" in the UK.
I'm only half kidding. "Electric shock" might be roughly equivalent to
naming a car the "Impact."
Or trying to sell the Chevy Nova in Mexico :)
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://www.gdunge.com/
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Hi everyone,
Yup - no regulations on the charging point - but it must have a GFCI
(RCD) Each socket has it's own cable too.
The idea is that users can choose between our "internal 13A" (The
sort that every british home has as a standard appliance plug) and a
European 16A socket. Quite a few EV users use the 16A because it's
splashproof and can be safely used outside - which of course the 13A
one can't.
Since most EV chargers in the UK are between 1 and 3KW people can
actually use either socket (as their charger plug has) to charge. My
charger is actually only 0.5KW - so I have no idea why I bother with
a 16A plug - but I still think it's safer than the 13A one.
As for how the points will be used I understand they will be locked
and the key will be loaned out from the nearby AccesAbility (place
where they keep the mobility scooters) and EV owners will actually be
able to lock their plug in place. Anyone using it will have to leave
their cell number and so in an emergency can be reached (or if
someone comes along desperate for a charge!)
Nikki.
_______________________________
Old car? New tricks?
Visit aminorjourney.com to see the transformation from Hebe to EV.
E-minor isn't just a key any more...
_______________________________
On Feb 26, 2007, at 11:36 AM, Evan Tuer wrote:
On 2/26/07, bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Nikki,
On
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/402211445/in/photostream/
it states there are two 240VAC power sources: 13 and 16 amp.
I assume UK electrical code also limits the AC load to 80% of the
outlet/breaker's rating. So a 13amp outlet is allowed a 10.5amp
draw or 2.5kW source, and a 16amp outlet is allowed a 15amp draw
or a 3kW source
There is no such rule. And, note that the mains voltage is
officially 230VAC.
For example, electrical heaters fitted with the 13A fused plug are
available, rated 3kW (230 * 13 = 2990W).
Charging points such as these should definitely be fitted with an RCD
(US calls this a GFCI).
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Jerry,
> Do you use an E meter to control your charger or how
> do you charge?
I have a US Electricar truck. It has a built in charger. I've figured
out most of the charging parameters related to charging. The truck has
an Emeter but it's not connected to the factory charger. The Emeter is
where I get the ah's and kwhr's from. I've set the charger to shut off
an hour after the pack hits 400v(1.587vpc).
> I think the 120-140% is rather high, is that just for
> the initializing charges? Or equalizing or for all? Why is
> you will be wasting an awlful lot of electricity at that
> rate and overheating them. That 20-40% extra has to go
> somewhere and gets turned to heat. And a big way to produce
> a lot of H2/02 may explain your bang.
If you log into the BB600 group, you can read the 2 BB600 manuals. The
manuals say that 20-40% overcharge is part of the normal recharge
routine. My temperature monitor shows that they stay around room
temperature when overcharging as I currently do. In fact the pack may
be overcharging much less than the 20-40% that I use to charge them
to. The big bang was due to excess hydrogen production made from
having slightly reversed (-0.1v) cells during the maintenance
discharge process that I put them through per the battery manual. This
manual that says every 100 cycles or so that the cells should be
discharged to zero volts and held there for 24 hours. It also shows
that mild reversal produces excess hydrogen, while hard reversal
produces excess oxygen. I had the pack uncovered the entire time. I
even drove it on an errand before it exploded.
> To equalize I charged to 1.65/cell but only did that
> every 5 cycles or without any balancing problems. And about
> 1.5-1.55 between equalizing charges. Be careful using this
> as it can rise above that, then drop off as it becomes too
> charged so voltage other than the 90% dischage is not a good
> judge of state of charge unless you are tracking it and even
> then can be tricky as one cell rises as another gets
> overcharged and falls, making the knee hard to detect.
>From my observations of the pack during charging, the pack is in the
knee, but not past it. You and I are charging to nearly the same volts
per cell. I cannot equalize to 1.65v as my charger only goes to
400vdc. So I can't go above 1.587 vpc unless I remove several cells
and still try to charge to 400v.
>
> I was discharging them, 14 amphr SAFT cells,
> probably 4c-6c peak, 2c run and charging them about 1c. I
> discharged them until the voltage started dropping off,
> which happens about 90% down as I could pedal home, most
> times which was about a weeks worth of e biking to the
> store. Mine were 27+ yrs old when I got them and put out
> more than rated power as most of them still do. Even
> mismatched cells played well if I didn't go below the
> weakest cell's capacity.
> I abused mine because they were old, free and I
> wanted to see, or forgot they were charging, what they would
> take and they take quite a lot!!!
They certainly have a great reputation.
>
> >
> >As for the range, I have pulled 37ah from a 40 ah pack. So
> >they are making their rating. Since my truck pulls about
> >1C-2C from these cells in normal driving, I tend to get the
> >factory ratings out of them.
>
> My SAFT BB600's are 30amphr rated but everyone has
> been getting 40 amphr out of them. They underate them so
> they will pass the Mil spec they are made to is what's
> probably happening.
The Greentops are probably around 50ah max. The tests I've done show
them to be higher than the redtops I also own. The greentops are
labeled 40-45ah depending on the discharge rate.
Mike
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evsource.com has a nice complete kit - pump, (small) radiator, hoses, relay -
all set to go. I installed an earlier version last year - it came with a Bosch
pump, the current system uses a different brand - and I couldn't have been
happier with it. A 120 mm fan is a direct bolt-on for the radiator, but I
never installed one, and didn't need it, either. And I ran it in 100+ degree
weather at times. Check out the website, talk to Ryan, the owner.
Richard Acuti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Thanks for all the good info guys.
>From the sounds of it, I have 3 cooling options that should work:
a) Just run fluid through the system and use an expansion tank.
b) Run the fluid through a heater core.
c) Run the fluid through a heater core with an electric fan in extreme heat.
I live in Maryland. The summers can be hot and the winters are cold. It
never gets "Arizona hot" though.
I like how the Zilla maintains a "battery voltage/current" and a "motor
voltage/current". Based on what you're telling me, it seems that my real
limitation is the 8v batteries. It doesn't sound like they'll take much of a
pounding beyond what the Curtis is capable of drawing out of them.
When I bought the car and found 8v batteries in it, I really agonized over
which battery voltage to use. I ended up contacting the actual builder (2
owners ago) by email. He told me that the car was just too slow at 96 volts
so he went with 8v batteries.
You want to talk battery abuse? The nearly-dead Trojans I found in the car
were 5 years old and bone dry! The previous owner was a woman who understood
equalizing charges but did not add water in her 2 years of ownership. Just
for fun, I put water in them to see how empty they were. It took 11 GALLONS
of distilled water to fill those 16 batteries. My range increased from 2 to
10 miles even on those tortured batteries.
I bought an 8v US battery as a comperable replacement. I'm hoping they'll
stand up to at least a little abuse. I'll get with the DC EV club and see if
there's anyone local to help me with programming and install.
Thanks for all the good words guys.
Rich
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Wayland..
funny I thought I was going to see a Grizzeled old plama tortured EV racer..
Not some punk with a RC speed controller in his hands..
Not bad chip... I am sure I will be wearing one.
But I need to sponsor a shirt for Wayland that really shows the main man and
his real image...
Bearded Crazy old Guy that drags his knuckles through Fork Truck Grease all
day...
On the Weekends he drives a spotless White Amped up DATsun.. with burnt tire
debris on the rear fenders as the only smudge and hint of what it can do.
Madman...
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 8:44 PM
Subject: White Zombie - Electric Muscle Car T-shirts soon available
> Hello to All,
>
> I'm sooooo excited that my friend Chip Gribben has designed a new
> T-shirt for me! For those unaware, Chip is 'the' force behind all of the
> coolest looking cartoon artwork that has transformed NEDRA the past few
> years. From the Power of DC, to Battery Beach Burnout, to the Late Night
> Nationals, they're all Chip's handiwork. After seeing his rendition of
> White Zombie alongside Gone Postal on the Late Night Nationals design, I
> just knew I had to have White Zombie T-shirts. Rather than tell everyone
> how great it looks, simply go to http://www.plasmaboyracing.com, then
> click on the 'Photos' button. Tomorrow, I'll be at a local T-shirt
> printer to have the first dozen shirts made up, so the Plasma Boy team
> can wear them at this weekend's 'Portland Roadster Show.
>
> Make sure to post back to the EVDL and let Chip know what you all think!
> When available for sale, all profits will go to Chip to help cover his
> art supply costs. Chip has never asked for anything in return for all
> his efforts, I just think we need to support this great EVer.
>
> See Ya......John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
>
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Umm Zero insertion force on a on road EV ??
I use Ramped locking Molex KK .100 centers.
I PAY for higher insertion forces. So stuff doesn't fall off.
You may want to rethink about what you are doing and why.
All Cars have latched locking connectors.. I suggest you do also.
Rich Rudman
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Manzanita Micro
360-297-7383,
Cell 360-620-6266
Production shop 360-297-1660
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 5:20 PM
Subject: ZIF Recommendation
> I'd like to put 21 of my shunt regulators on a single mount so that I
> can easily pull off in toto when I need to tighten the battery
> connectors. My plan is to run short lengths of wire from each cell
> through a fuse to some sort of connectors, then have mating connectors
> on the regulator mount. Anyone have a recommendation for a type of ZIF
> (Zero Insertion Force) connector that might work for this? Would two
> pieces of 1-inch square aluminum work if they were held tightly
> together, or is there a better alternative? Connectors need to handle
> about 3A max.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
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Man this pisses me off. We work like heck to have a silent powerfull drive
train.. and then the safety NAZIS step in and complain that if a Blind
man... What a about Deaf???
There is always somebody that fan find something wrong with what ever is
not normal.
Clearly.. I won't be adding backup beepers or flashing lights just to make
some group safer.
All vehicles have horns and lights, USE them when you see somebody about to
make a mistake. And Oh Yea that's what brakes are for!!!
I have snuck up on many folks.. it's kinda fun. In the drag lanes nobody
steps un front of the lit off Gasser, But they just back up and walk into a
EV with a LOT more torque on tap than the Guys using Explosions to move
thier Sled.
NPR can find a problems with a nice Sunny Day in May.
And yes the Ford Escapes can seak up on the Ferry Crews.. "Geez you are as
quiet as one of them HYBrids... Oh... You are one of them Too!!!
It's fun sitting at lights and you can hear the other ICEers leaking
gaskets, chirping Vbelt drive, burnt valves... squeaky brakes and other Bad
maitence issues. I have been doing that since the mid 90s when I built
Goldie for the first time, and snuck up on little old ladies in my
apartment.
That was fun... We need a polite horn.. not a freight train horn..kind of a
meep or a nice Synthed Bong..Bong. Just to warn when we have to.
We will leave the Kenworth Air horn for the fools that really need some
telling off...
I don't know how many times I have threatened to remove a truck's back up
beeper with a shot gun.. but I hate the added noises that are just for
safety,When the driver should be looking anyways, and the fools walking
behind a Rig... should be very aware that if you can't see the driver... he
can't see you.
As you can see I am one of them personal responsibility Guys... I take mine
quite seriously.
And so should the Blind Guy stepping off the Curb and the Driver watching
for pedestrians.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 6:38 AM
Subject: Blind EV's
> Howdy folk's,
>
> I heard on NPR last week that blind groups were lobbying congress to
require hybrid & EV manufacturers to put noisemakers on their vehicles. NPR
recorded various cars going by and compared it to a Prius in electric mode
and their test subject (a blind person) had to be pulled back from stepping
out in front of the vehicle. Toyota claims they are looking into it
(whatever that means).
>
> The announcer said we could have cow bells on the vehicles. I don't
want to have to put baseball cards in the spokes of my wheels though.
>
> Of course turning down your controller frequency to 1.5kHz does the
trick, at least I'm not the major cause of road-kill anymore in Roanoke, VA.
(Also the controller runs more efficirntly/cooler).
>
> Have a renewable energy day,
> Mark
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Don't pick lemons.
> See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
>
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On Mon, Feb 26, 2007 at 09:53:45AM -0800, Rich Rudman wrote:
> Umm Zero insertion force on a on road EV ??
Isn't it true that Zero Insertion Force does not necessarily equal Zero Removal
Force?
Thanks!
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--- Begin Message ---
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Blind EV's
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 10:18:56 -0800
Man this pisses me off. We work like heck to have a silent powerfull drive
train.. and then the safety NAZIS step in and complain that if a Blind
man... What a about Deaf???
There is always somebody that fan find something wrong with what ever is
not normal.
Clearly.. I won't be adding backup beepers or flashing lights just to make
some group safer.
All vehicles have horns and lights, USE them when you see somebody about to
make a mistake. And Oh Yea that's what brakes are for!!!
I have snuck up on many folks.. it's kinda fun. In the drag lanes nobody
steps un front of the lit off Gasser, But they just back up and walk into a
EV with a LOT more torque on tap than the Guys using Explosions to move
thier Sled.
NPR can find a problems with a nice Sunny Day in May.
Rich -
NPR doesn't make the laws here in the US. They just report the news. This
was news.
If you don't like a law ( or proposed law) write your congressman. Don't
blame the messenger- or, complain to us.
And, it had been refreshing not to hear about Nazis all the time since Neon
John dropped out of sight.
If we could all refrain from name-calling, it would reduce the noise on this
loop.
Phil
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