EV Digest 6518
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Voltage Sag, Peukerts Effect
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Chevy Metro Weight
by Ian Page-Echols <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: 1-Wire Confusion
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: 1-Wire Confusion
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: [Evtech] SCR's last orders
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Chevy Metro Weight
by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Portland Roadster Show Photos up
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: 1-Wire Confusion
by Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Chevy Metro Weight
by "Darin - at - metrompg.com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Compressed air as battery?
by "Michael" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Chevy Metro Weight
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Learning more about electronics. WAS: Re: [Evtech] SCR's last orders
by "Matt Kenigson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Kilovac EV-200 as safety disconnect?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Chicago
by "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Regenerative suspension
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Regenerative suspension
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Kilovac EV-200 as safety disconnect?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Chevy Metro Weight
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Chevy Metro Weight, now aero
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Chevy Metro Weight
by "Darin - at - metrompg.com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: 1-Wire Confusion
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Kilovac EV-200 as safety disconnect?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Chevy Metro Weight - and your BLDC motor
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Kilovac EV-200 as safety disconnect?
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: Kilovac EV-200 as safety disconnect?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
It's best not to go under 1.75vpc under normal circumstances.
Going down to 1VPC is only valid for extreemly high current draw and it's
not safe to do unless the pack is well ballanced and freshly charged.
If you try to go down to 1VPC on a large series pack (like a 128V pack)
and it's out of ballance or fairly discharged, you run the risk of
actually taking one cell BELOW 0V, i.e. reversing it.
The problem is that it's difficult to tell what the individual cell
voltages are by just measuring the whole pack.
For example, your pack has 64 cells. How can you tell if 50 cells are at
1V, 13 cells are at 1.1V and one cell is at -0.3V ? The whole pack would
still read 64V.
If you keep pulling current through it, once a cell goes empty it will
quickly go from 1V to 0V and then negative.
The 1.75vpc is a fairly safe number to use to insure that all of your
cells stay at a healthy voltage. But even then you can still reverse a
cell if you let the pack get badly out of ballance.
So to answer your question; yes you are abbusing the pack. But, if it's
not too often, and for not too long, and you keep the pack ballanced, and
don't do it when the pack in heavily discharged, then you probably aren't
doing too much damage to the pack.
> Based on one earlier reply, I shouldn't drag cell voltage any lower than
> 1.75 vpc. That would be 112v total. (64 cells X 1.75) I do have a
> swing-needle volt meter so I can watch the sag while I drive. Another
> reply
> stated 1 vpc. That would be as low as 64v total. I think during hard
> acceleration, or hill climbing, the worst sag I've experienced is
> 95v...maybe 80v once.
>
> The question of the day is: Am I abusing these batteries too much?
>
> Rich A.
> Maryland
>
> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 06:08:52 -0800 (PST)
> From: Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Voltage Sag, Peukerts Effect
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> For lead acid chemistry, you take each cell down to
> 1.75 VPC. So on a 144V pack, you can assume that on
> average, 126V is fairly safe.
> Regarding Peukert's, most batteries' numbers are
> listed on the web; my floodies at 1.22 or so.
> -Just noting that you are on a "student budget", yet
> have chosen AGM batteries, which are 2-3x the cost of
> floodies, especially once you lay regulators on to
> maximize their life. IMHO, that's a contradiction.
> - RE: Nickel and Lithium, I don't think you'll find
> many on the list using them yet, as they are usually
> run in series @ higher voltages, so lower currents.
> Higher currents are destructive to many models of this
> chemistry. Many of us are sitting on the sidelines,
> waiting until someone else tries it so we can learn
> from their experiences.
> Best to you,
>
> --- Scott Littledike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> DonÂ’t miss your chance to WIN 10 hours of private jet travel from
> Microsoft®
> Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0540002499mrt/direct/01/
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As it's taking me forever to get started on building my electric car,
I've been doing a bunch of poring over stats of various cars trying
to figure out what features, shapes, weights, and sizes might be
helpful. Here's a link to a spreadsheet I've created with a bunch of
this. If anyone has any cars I should add, or different attributes
of the cars I should find, please let me know.
One specific thing I've had a hard time finding is the drag
coefficients of various vehicles. Does anyone know a place to find
this info?
The link:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pF3I_WlZtXKEUmB-YH-JnZA
Hope it's useful to someone, Ian
On Mar 6, 2007, at 9:46 AM, Ted Sanders wrote:
go to http.www.carsplusplus.com
They have car specs beginning in 1970
Beano -- 1981 Ford Escort EV
Ted Sanders
From: mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Chevy Metro Weight
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 05:41:29 -0800 (PST)
Hello
I recently purchased a 1998 Chevy Metro.
GM dropped the "Geo" name in that year.
It seems to be a little heavier. I haven't found the
weight on the car, but some books say 1895 pounds, not
exactly the 1600 pounds, I was hoping for.
I can't get the car to scale, because it doesn't run.
Does anyone know what years of the Geo Metro were the
lightest?
And are there any improvements that are worth the
weight?
Maybe better crash protection?
Thanks a lot!
Michael Golub
Fairbanks, AK
http://community.uaf.edu/~ffmig/home.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
2) I'm still confused about device VSS. With two cells in series, are
you saying that how does it work when DQ of the first slave chip is
referenced to VSS of cell 1, and DQ of the second slave chip is
referenced to VSS of cell 2? To what is the master referenced?
Yes, that is correct. I assume by 'Master' you mean a microcontroller
or something. It can be referenced wherever you want it, but I would
normally reference it to chassis ground - ISOLATED FROM THE PACK!
As for the optical isolation, it can be made to work but in more
of a brute-force way. I connect it like this:
PROCESSOR -----> OPTO ------> resistor ---+---> DQ
|
PROCESSOR <---- OPTO <-----< BUFFER <----+
Note this takes two signal lines from the processor. You can't
multidrop this way effectively. Well, you can if the optos are
open-drain, but the current levels get out of hand quickly.
The one thing is it must be a master-slave arrangement with one
master - the processor. Slaves can't talk to each other.
Also, you can't self-power the devices this way... you need to
have a separate DC-DC converter to get power to the one-wire
side. This gets terribly complicated, terribly quickly, as the
number of cells balloons.
Another option is to design a current sense/sink arrangement
that is referenced to the bottom VSS - or maybe the top Vcell.
It would be a bit tricky but I think a clever designer could
make it work. You'd only need the two optos, and a handful
of high-voltage signal transistors. Actually, I think this could
work nicely.... I might have to think about it.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> 1) The chip can come configured with a 25mOhm sense resistor between VSS
> (Cell minus) and SNS (Pack minus). What keeps large amounts of current
> from flowing through this resistor?
You mean besides the fact that it's 25,000,000 ohms?
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
SCRs are basically fast switches. If you apply +5VDC to the gate the
SCR will conduct. If you are using DC they will remain on until either
you reverse the current through the anode to cathode path or cut off the
current flow completely.
In an SCR EV controller, the SCR is turned off forcibly by connecting
a charged capacitor across the (conducting) SCR, which reverses the
current through the SCR long enough to turn off.
For the most part, MOSFET's have replaced SCR's in DC motor control.
Their losses tend to be lower, and they are easier to drive. For really
high power stuff, SCR's still are used because you can't beat their
voltage/current ratings.
They used to make AC inverters this way, but since IGBT's came on
the scene, for most things under 100 or maybe even 500 kW, IGBT's
are used. Basically, above about 1500 volts and 1500 amps, SCR's
win, but the circuitry is somewhat complex.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can't put my finger on the exact URL but wikipedia had a lot of 'em listed
(perhaps under drag coefficient or similar title).
----- Original Message ----
From: Ian Page-Echols <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2007 1:23:22 PM
Subject: Re: Chevy Metro Weight
As it's taking me forever to get started on building my electric car,
I've been doing a bunch of poring over stats of various cars trying
to figure out what features, shapes, weights, and sizes might be
helpful. Here's a link to a spreadsheet I've created with a bunch of
this. If anyone has any cars I should add, or different attributes
of the cars I should find, please let me know.
One specific thing I've had a hard time finding is the drag
coefficients of various vehicles. Does anyone know a place to find
this info?
The link:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pF3I_WlZtXKEUmB-YH-JnZA
Hope it's useful to someone, Ian
On Mar 6, 2007, at 9:46 AM, Ted Sanders wrote:
> go to http.www.carsplusplus.com
>
> They have car specs beginning in 1970
>
> Beano -- 1981 Ford Escort EV
> Ted Sanders
>
>
>> From: mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>> Subject: Chevy Metro Weight
>> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 05:41:29 -0800 (PST)
>>
>> Hello
>>
>> I recently purchased a 1998 Chevy Metro.
>> GM dropped the "Geo" name in that year.
>>
>> It seems to be a little heavier. I haven't found the
>> weight on the car, but some books say 1895 pounds, not
>> exactly the 1600 pounds, I was hoping for.
>>
>> I can't get the car to scale, because it doesn't run.
>>
>> Does anyone know what years of the Geo Metro were the
>> lightest?
>>
>> And are there any improvements that are worth the
>> weight?
>> Maybe better crash protection?
>>
>> Thanks a lot!
>>
>> Michael Golub
>> Fairbanks, AK
>>
>> http://community.uaf.edu/~ffmig/home.htm
____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for earth-friendly autos?
Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John, do you have any idea of how many folks were affected by your
presentation? You can see the young guys jaw dropped in amazement in one of
the photos. You can also see people with a voyeuristic EV grin in the same
photo. Also, I didn't realize how short you are until I saw you standing
next to Miss Oregon :-) Much congratulations for a terrific display and the
attitude adjustment to the general public that only you could have pulled
off so professionally. My hat is off to you!
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 7:57 AM
Subject: Portland Roadster Show Photos up
Hello to All,
Just a quick note to let everyone know that a few of the many photos I
took from this past weekend's car show, are up at the Plasma Boy Racing
web page. Look for a post all about the fun, excitement, and exhaustion of
this EVent a bit later.
See Ya....John Wayland
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.7/711 - Release Date: 3/5/2007
9:41 AM
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter, it's .025 Ohm. It's milli-ohms.
Bill Dennis
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
1) The chip can come configured with a 25mOhm sense resistor between VSS
(Cell minus) and SNS (Pack minus). What keeps large amounts of current
from flowing through this resistor?
You mean besides the fact that it's 25,000,000 ohms?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 6 Mar 2007 at 5:41, mike golub wrote:
Does anyone know what years of the Geo Metro were the
lightest?
Speaking of 2-door hatchback models only:
- the MK1 (1985-1988) models were near 1650 lbs (748 kg).
http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?t=15660
- the MK2/3 (1985-1988) models started at 1741 lbs (790 kg) and up
(depending on transmission & engine).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_Swift
- My MK5 (1998, 3-cyl, 5-speed) model is 1830 lbs (830 kg) according to
the plate on the door jamb.
And are there any improvements that are worth the
weight?
Maybe better crash protection?
Improved side impact protection and standard dual airbags are the most
obvious safety additions to the mk4/5 (1995-2001) cars. These cars
appear to be more aerodynamic too: front end transitions are much more
rounded, the windshield is raked further back, and there's a little more
plan taper to the aft greenhouse.
Darin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Of course gas wouldn't be cheap either if gotten from scuba shops. :-)
>
> Remember air is as cheap or cheaper than gas because it can be 100%
> efficiently compressed IF the waste heat arises from compressing it is
> recovered and offsets some other heat used such as building heat or
> water heating. It is only inefficiently compressed if the waste heat is
> dumped.
"Unfortunately, running air compressors (AC) often uses more energy than
any other equipment. Air compressor efficiency is the ratio of energy
input to energy output. Many air compressors may be running at
efficiencies as low as 10 percent. Improving AC efficiency can yield
significant savings to your facility."
http://www.p2pays.org/ref/32/31312.pdf
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The U.S. gov't EPA spreadsheets are a goldmine for information like this:
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/tcldata.htm
For the older spreadsheets I think it listed effective frontal areas (Cd*A).
The newer ones list a "cstdwn" column, but I wasn't able to find documentation
for that column or even figure out if it related to aerodynamics -- does anyone
know how to decode the newer spreadsheets for aero data?
Also, fuel economy is a pretty good first-order estimate for how efficient a
car will be as an EV.
----- Original Message ----
From: Ian Page-Echols <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2007 11:23:22 AM
Subject: Re: Chevy Metro Weight
As it's taking me forever to get started on building my electric car,
I've been doing a bunch of poring over stats of various cars trying
to figure out what features, shapes, weights, and sizes might be
helpful. Here's a link to a spreadsheet I've created with a bunch of
this. If anyone has any cars I should add, or different attributes
of the cars I should find, please let me know.
One specific thing I've had a hard time finding is the drag
coefficients of various vehicles. Does anyone know a place to find
this info?
The link:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pF3I_WlZtXKEUmB-YH-JnZA
Hope it's useful to someone, Ian
On Mar 6, 2007, at 9:46 AM, Ted Sanders wrote:
> go to http.www.carsplusplus.com
>
> They have car specs beginning in 1970
>
> Beano -- 1981 Ford Escort EV
> Ted Sanders
>
>
>> From: mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>> Subject: Chevy Metro Weight
>> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 05:41:29 -0800 (PST)
>>
>> Hello
>>
>> I recently purchased a 1998 Chevy Metro.
>> GM dropped the "Geo" name in that year.
>>
>> It seems to be a little heavier. I haven't found the
>> weight on the car, but some books say 1895 pounds, not
>> exactly the 1600 pounds, I was hoping for.
>>
>> I can't get the car to scale, because it doesn't run.
>>
>> Does anyone know what years of the Geo Metro were the
>> lightest?
>>
>> And are there any improvements that are worth the
>> weight?
>> Maybe better crash protection?
>>
>> Thanks a lot!
>>
>> Michael Golub
>> Fairbanks, AK
>>
>> http://community.uaf.edu/~ffmig/home.htm
____________________________________________________________________________________
Get your own web address.
Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 3/6/07, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The gate-to-cathode input of an SCR behaves like the base-to-emitter
junction of an NPN transistor, i.e. like a forward-biased diode.
...and then the defromulator connects to the plendergast joint to emulate a
three-frip mertoblorg... ;)
Actually, it's starting to make a little sense to me. Thanks for putting up
with a newbie! I'm really enjoying learning more about electronics. I
guess I should really take some classes or get some books and study up. My
father-in-law still has his books from an old famous mail order electronics
course. Maybe I can borrow them from him.
Matt
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It was the 80 dollar model. It's not good for a 144vdc system at 700 amps.
My controller went south. The key, brakes & EV200 didn't stop it. The EV
200 welded shut. My Heinemann breaker saved the motor. After that the only
option was to over rev the motor. Lawrence Rhodes.........
----- Original Message -----
From: "thomas ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:03 AM
Subject: Re: Kilovac EV-200 as safety disconnect?
> Lawrence
>
> what model of Kilovac did you use?
> What do you mean by "it didn't make it". Can you give
> more details. I don't know much about breakers and was
> thinking of using kilovac ev200s.
>
> thanks
>
> Tom Ward
> --- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> > I used a Kilovac rated to break a 144vdc pack. It
> > didn't make it. Good
> > thing my Heinemann relay was up to the task. I'm
> > now using two Albrights.
> > Cost should not be an issue here. Lawrence
> > Rhodes......
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ben Apollonio" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 8:17 PM
> > Subject: Kilovac EV-200 as safety disconnect?
> >
> >
> > > How reliable is the Kilovac EV-200 as a safety
> > disconnect breaking a
> > > 192V pack of Optima YT's shorted across an ADC 9"
> > (i.e. inductive
> > > load)? I am using an older T-Rex 1000 and I'm
> > concerned about the
> > > consequences of my controller failing ON (as in,
> > still powering the
> > > motor). I will have a pair of contactors in
> > series, and I prefer the
> > > EV-200's for their low cost over the EV-250's and
> > bubbas. I know
> > > better than to reuse the contactors after I've
> > opened them under that
> > > kind of load, so it's not a repeated reliability
> > thing so much as a
> > > one-time thing. But will they even be up to
> > carrying the continuous
> > > current of my EV? I'd hate to deform them such
> > that they didn't open
> > > when I needed.
> > >
> > > I plan on having a fuse too, but I'm really
> > concerned about having a
> > > disconnect I can initiate. The Heinemann breakers
> > look good, except
> > > they're only rated at 160VDC.
> > >
> > > If you think that no, they won't work, what
> > alternatives can you
> > > suggest?
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> > > -Ben
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> What kind of emailer are you? Find out today - get a free analysis of your
email personality. Take the quiz at the Yahoo! Mail Championship.
> http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/evt=44106/*http://mail.yahoo.net/uk
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I know it got rained out last year, but are there any EV races scheduled
in the Chicago area this year ?
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C76036.23B7C546"
Subject: Chicago
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 15:26:44 -0600
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Thread-Topic: Chicago
Thread-Index: AcdgNiLw3gwezNl1SnimK2cH9sITmw==
From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion Group--
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 15:42:34 -0600
From: Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Regenerative suspension
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I had a friend who saw I think a Honda hybrid car prototype being called
"Impact".
She said she joked to the guy doing the demo about that name and he said
other people had said the same thing, but he didn't understand the
problem. It was meant to make an impact on the market or something.
I think that may have been renamed the "Honda Insight" as opposed to
"Honda Impact". Not totally sure though.
Danny
David Roden wrote:
>Interesting thoughts, but I think you need a different name for this gadget.
> "Electric shock" carries some undesirable connotations. FWIW, I think
>they're called "dampers" in the UK.
>
>I'm only half kidding. "Electric shock" might be roughly equivalent to
>naming a car the "Impact."
>
>
>David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>EV List Administrator
>
>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 13:48:10 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Regenerative suspension
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
From: Danny Miller
>I had a friend who saw I think a Honda hybrid car prototype being
> called "Impact".
The prototype for the GM EV1 was originally named the "Impact" (really!).
That's probably what your friend saw.
--
Lee Hart
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Kilovac EV-200 as safety disconnect?
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 13:51:41 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Lawrence,
The welding shut of your contactor must have been the problem BEFORE you
tried to disconnect your broken controller, possibly the welding shut
occurred by it pulling in ON a broken controller.
The EV200 is specified to be able to disconnect 2000A at 320V. Your system
was nowhere near that.
This spec makes the Kilovac the contactor of choice for the high voltage AC
systems, such as the
300V Prizms and 312V S-10 US Electricars.
Again, your welded contact was caused by another defect, as a disconnect
will not weld a contact,
only a connect while not properly pre-charged for example.
Did your system have a (working) pre-charge?
Good that you had a 2nd line of defense (pullable breaker) as you can never
be 100% sure of any safety, so better have two independent ones.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:10 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Kilovac EV-200 as safety disconnect?
It was the 80 dollar model. It's not good for a 144vdc system at 700 amps.
My controller went south. The key, brakes & EV200 didn't stop it. The EV
200 welded shut. My Heinemann breaker saved the motor. After that the only
option was to over rev the motor. Lawrence Rhodes.........
----- Original Message -----
From: "thomas ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:03 AM
Subject: Re: Kilovac EV-200 as safety disconnect?
> Lawrence
>
> what model of Kilovac did you use?
> What do you mean by "it didn't make it". Can you give
> more details. I don't know much about breakers and was
> thinking of using kilovac ev200s.
>
> thanks
>
> Tom Ward
> --- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> > I used a Kilovac rated to break a 144vdc pack. It
> > didn't make it. Good
> > thing my Heinemann relay was up to the task. I'm
> > now using two Albrights.
> > Cost should not be an issue here. Lawrence
> > Rhodes......
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ben Apollonio" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 8:17 PM
> > Subject: Kilovac EV-200 as safety disconnect?
> >
> >
> > > How reliable is the Kilovac EV-200 as a safety
> > disconnect breaking a
> > > 192V pack of Optima YT's shorted across an ADC 9"
> > (i.e. inductive
> > > load)? I am using an older T-Rex 1000 and I'm
> > concerned about the
> > > consequences of my controller failing ON (as in,
> > still powering the
> > > motor). I will have a pair of contactors in
> > series, and I prefer the
> > > EV-200's for their low cost over the EV-250's and
> > bubbas. I know
> > > better than to reuse the contactors after I've
> > opened them under that
> > > kind of load, so it's not a repeated reliability
> > thing so much as a
> > > one-time thing. But will they even be up to
> > carrying the continuous
> > > current of my EV? I'd hate to deform them such
> > that they didn't open
> > > when I needed.
> > >
> > > I plan on having a fuse too, but I'm really
> > concerned about having a
> > > disconnect I can initiate. The Heinemann breakers
> > look good, except
> > > they're only rated at 160VDC.
> > >
> > > If you think that no, they won't work, what
> > alternatives can you
> > > suggest?
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> > > -Ben
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> What kind of emailer are you? Find out today - get a free analysis of your
email personality. Take the quiz at the Yahoo! Mail Championship.
> http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/evt=44106/*http://mail.yahoo.net/uk
>
From: "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: RE: Chevy Metro Weight
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 13:00:15 -0700
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
of
this. If anyone has any cars I should add, or different attributes
of the cars I should find, please let me know.
Adding GVWR would be very beneficial so you have an idea of
the amount of weight 'headroom' you may have for batteries,
or how much work it'll be to get it in that ballpark. In some
jurisdictions, you can't add weight to bring the car over
GVWR (unless you are a registered car OEM or chassis builder,
you can't increase the GVWR).
I've been struggling with this as well. I've narrowed my search
to a CRX, Saturn, or Geo - my BLDC motors aren't up for anything
much heavier, and you can't just raise the amps on them without
wrecking their magnets.
One specific thing I've had a hard time finding is the drag
coefficients of various vehicles. Does anyone know a place to find
this info?
Try here:
http://www.mayfco.com/tbls.htm
Remember, it's not just Cd but Cd * A. A Lotus Super-7 has a pretty
bad drag coefficient - higher than a Hummer. But it doesn't need as much
power as a Hummer. So if you have Cd listed, Cd * A would be nice too.
-Dale
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 13:57:23 -0800
From: john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Chevy Metro Weight, now aero
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
aero values of cars-
jump straight to answer:
Miata or maybe a CRX
cheap, available, modern, robust aftermarket, well-built, cute.
In Europe there's lots of other choices.
what am I considering?
Meyers Manx or sandrail or Tow'd or mini-buggy, none of which are very
aerodynamic.
or maybe a Locost which is slippery.
I don't need to go on the freeway, and I live in So Cal.
when I asked the question elsewhere, most guys said frontal area was a pretty
accurate predictor for production cars.
JF
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 13:25:09 -0500
From: "Darin - at - metrompg.com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Chevy Metro Weight
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> go to http.www.carsplusplus.com
Neat resource, but take it with a very large grain of salt.
There are 3 errors on its page for my ICE car: weight, engine
displacement and country of origin.
http://www.carsplusplus.com/specs1998/chevrolet_metro.php
Darin
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 15:55:32 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: 1-Wire Confusion
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Ahh, I thought I was missing something.
> Peter, it's .025 Ohm. It's milli-ohms.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>>> 1) The chip can come configured with a 25mOhm sense resistor between
>>> VSS
>>> (Cell minus) and SNS (Pack minus). What keeps large amounts of current
>>> from flowing through this resistor?
>>>
>>
>> You mean besides the fact that it's 25,000,000 ohms?
>>
>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
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Subject: RE: Kilovac EV-200 as safety disconnect?
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 14:10:52 -0800
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> It was the 80 dollar model. It's not good for a 144vdc
> system at 700 amps. My controller went south. The key,
> brakes & EV200 didn't stop it. The EV 200 welded shut.
Careful here, the EV-200 is likely perfectly adequate for a 144V 700A
system. The problem is that when the controller goes, there is no
longer any current limit other than what the batteries themselves can
source.
The data sheet for the EV-200 suggests it ~ought~ to be capable of
interrupting about 3000A (once!) at 144V (about 3500A @ 120V).
Of course, it is also entirely possible that your EV-200 may have welded
prior to the 'event', for instance its life is severely compromised if
you don't have a precharge resistor or allow the relay to close before
the caps have precharged sufficiently (e.g. there is a 1000x reduction
in life between precharging to 80% instead of 90%), or it may have
welded if the high current event lasted longer than the contactor was
capable of carrying that current (I think Bill Dube has suggested one
should ensure that the contactor(s) are capable of surviving the fault
current for longer than it takes for the fuse(s)/circuit breaker(s) to
open).
What is the rated short circuit current of the batteries you were using
at the time? This is what I would base the required contactor on. A
pair of contactors is going to be better than one alone, but do bear in
mind that the Albrights are rated for about half the current as the
Kilovac and much less voltage... They are physically larger, so they
might be able to survive a fault current longer before welding, and they
are open so you can visibly inspect them to determine if one has welded
prior to calling upon them to stop a runaway.
Cheers,
Roger.
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 14:54:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: Chevy Metro Weight - and your BLDC motor
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Dale,
I would like to hear more about your motor.
Who makes this motor? Can you describe the control,
current limit, max voltage etc.
Thanks,
Rod
--- Dale Ulan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> of
> this. If anyone has any cars I should add, or
> different attributes
> of the cars I should find, please let me know.
>
> Adding GVWR would be very beneficial so you have an
> idea of
> the amount of weight 'headroom' you may have for
> batteries,
> or how much work it'll be to get it in that
> ballpark. In some
> jurisdictions, you can't add weight to bring the car
> over
> GVWR (unless you are a registered car OEM or chassis
> builder,
> you can't increase the GVWR).
>
> I've been struggling with this as well. I've
> narrowed my search
> to a CRX, Saturn, or Geo - my BLDC motors aren't up
> for anything
> much heavier, and you can't just raise the amps on
> them without
> wrecking their magnets.
>
> One specific thing I've had a hard time finding is
> the drag
> coefficients of various vehicles. Does anyone know
> a place to find
> this info?
>
> Try here:
>
> http://www.mayfco.com/tbls.htm
>
> Remember, it's not just Cd but Cd * A. A Lotus
> Super-7 has a pretty
> bad drag coefficient - higher than a Hummer. But it
> doesn't need as much
> power as a Hummer. So if you have Cd listed, Cd * A
> would be nice too.
>
> -Dale
>
>
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 14:58:04 -0800 (PST)
From: David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Kilovac EV-200 as safety disconnect?
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
When I was running the escort (114V system of floodies with a Curtis 1221b), I
had 2 EV-200's in series. The second in line was shorted by a precharge
resistor, and a circuit would close that contactor when the system was
precharged. So there was minimal inrush current. The first one welded shut
after about 5 cycles and I had to replace it. If they do this on a system this
far under their specs, I wouldn't use them again. I was glad I had a breaker
and a fuse in that car, even though I never had any problems. It was a well
behaved system (although it was slow).
The newer EV-200 model (I forget the model designation - You can probably find
it on the tyco electronics website) is twice as tall. I suspect they had
minimal gaps and realized that to market the new model for aircraft, as they
do, that they had to have better reliability, so they increased the travel of
the contacts.
David Brandt
----- Original Message ----
From: Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2007 4:51:41 PM
Subject: RE: Kilovac EV-200 as safety disconnect?
Lawrence,
The welding shut of your contactor must have been the problem BEFORE you
tried to disconnect your broken controller, possibly the welding shut
occurred by it pulling in ON a broken controller.
The EV200 is specified to be able to disconnect 2000A at 320V. Your system
was nowhere near that.
This spec makes the Kilovac the contactor of choice for the high voltage AC
systems, such as the
300V Prizms and 312V S-10 US Electricars.
Again, your welded contact was caused by another defect, as a disconnect
will not weld a contact,
only a connect while not properly pre-charged for example.
Did your system have a (working) pre-charge?
Good that you had a 2nd line of defense (pullable breaker) as you can never
be 100% sure of any safety, so better have two independent ones.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:10 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Kilovac EV-200 as safety disconnect?
It was the 80 dollar model. It's not good for a 144vdc system at 700 amps.
My controller went south. The key, brakes & EV200 didn't stop it. The EV
200 welded shut. My Heinemann breaker saved the motor. After that the only
option was to over rev the motor. Lawrence Rhodes.........
----- Original Message -----
From: "thomas ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:03 AM
Subject: Re: Kilovac EV-200 as safety disconnect?
> Lawrence
>
> what model of Kilovac did you use?
> What do you mean by "it didn't make it". Can you give
> more details. I don't know much about breakers and was
> thinking of using kilovac ev200s.
>
> thanks
>
> Tom Ward
> --- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> > I used a Kilovac rated to break a 144vdc pack. It
> > didn't make it. Good
> > thing my Heinemann relay was up to the task. I'm
> > now using two Albrights.
> > Cost should not be an issue here. Lawrence
> > Rhodes......
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ben Apollonio" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 8:17 PM
> > Subject: Kilovac EV-200 as safety disconnect?
> >
> >
> > > How reliable is the Kilovac EV-200 as a safety
> > disconnect breaking a
> > > 192V pack of Optima YT's shorted across an ADC 9"
> > (i.e. inductive
> > > load)? I am using an older T-Rex 1000 and I'm
> > concerned about the
> > > consequences of my controller failing ON (as in,
> > still powering the
> > > motor). I will have a pair of contactors in
> > series, and I prefer the
> > > EV-200's for their low cost over the EV-250's and
> > bubbas. I know
> > > better than to reuse the contactors after I've
> > opened them under that
> > > kind of load, so it's not a repeated reliability
> > thing so much as a
> > > one-time thing. But will they even be up to
> > carrying the continuous
> > > current of my EV? I'd hate to deform them such
> > that they didn't open
> > > when I needed.
> > >
> > > I plan on having a fuse too, but I'm really
> > concerned about having a
> > > disconnect I can initiate. The Heinemann breakers
> > look good, except
> > > they're only rated at 160VDC.
> > >
> > > If you think that no, they won't work, what
> > alternatives can you
> > > suggest?
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> > > -Ben
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> What kind of emailer are you? Find out today - get a free analysis of your
email personality. Take the quiz at the Yahoo! Mail Championship.
> http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/evt=44106/*http://mail.yahoo.net/uk
>
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Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Kilovac EV-200 as safety disconnect?
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 14:59:22 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Specs on http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/datasheets/ev200.pdf
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:52 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Kilovac EV-200 as safety disconnect?
Lawrence,
The welding shut of your contactor must have been the problem BEFORE you
tried to disconnect your broken controller, possibly the welding shut
occurred by it pulling in ON a broken controller.
The EV200 is specified to be able to disconnect 2000A at 320V. Your system
was nowhere near that.
This spec makes the Kilovac the contactor of choice for the high voltage AC
systems, such as the 300V Prizms and 312V S-10 US Electricars.
Again, your welded contact was caused by another defect, as a disconnect
will not weld a contact, only a connect while not properly pre-charged for
example.
Did your system have a (working) pre-charge?
Good that you had a 2nd line of defense (pullable breaker) as you can never
be 100% sure of any safety, so better have two independent ones.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 1:10 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Kilovac EV-200 as safety disconnect?
It was the 80 dollar model. It's not good for a 144vdc system at 700 amps.
My controller went south. The key, brakes & EV200 didn't stop it. The EV
200 welded shut. My Heinemann breaker saved the motor. After that the only
option was to over rev the motor. Lawrence Rhodes.........
----- Original Message -----
From: "thomas ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:03 AM
Subject: Re: Kilovac EV-200 as safety disconnect?
> Lawrence
>
> what model of Kilovac did you use?
> What do you mean by "it didn't make it". Can you give more details. I
> don't know much about breakers and was thinking of using kilovac
> ev200s.
>
> thanks
>
> Tom Ward
> --- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> > I used a Kilovac rated to break a 144vdc pack. It didn't make it.
> > Good thing my Heinemann relay was up to the task. I'm now using two
> > Albrights.
> > Cost should not be an issue here. Lawrence Rhodes......
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ben Apollonio" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 8:17 PM
> > Subject: Kilovac EV-200 as safety disconnect?
> >
> >
> > > How reliable is the Kilovac EV-200 as a safety
> > disconnect breaking a
> > > 192V pack of Optima YT's shorted across an ADC 9"
> > (i.e. inductive
> > > load)? I am using an older T-Rex 1000 and I'm
> > concerned about the
> > > consequences of my controller failing ON (as in,
> > still powering the
> > > motor). I will have a pair of contactors in
> > series, and I prefer the
> > > EV-200's for their low cost over the EV-250's and
> > bubbas. I know
> > > better than to reuse the contactors after I've
> > opened them under that
> > > kind of load, so it's not a repeated reliability
> > thing so much as a
> > > one-time thing. But will they even be up to
> > carrying the continuous
> > > current of my EV? I'd hate to deform them such
> > that they didn't open
> > > when I needed.
> > >
> > > I plan on having a fuse too, but I'm really
> > concerned about having a
> > > disconnect I can initiate. The Heinemann breakers
> > look good, except
> > > they're only rated at 160VDC.
> > >
> > > If you think that no, they won't work, what
> > alternatives can you
> > > suggest?
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> > > -Ben
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> What kind of emailer are you? Find out today - get a free analysis of
> your
email personality. Take the quiz at the Yahoo! Mail Championship.
> http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/evt=44106/*http://mail.yahoo.net/uk
>
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