EV Digest 6556
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EVLN(GM needs to stop talking & get Job One done
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Machining adapter plate via website
by Tony Hwang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Lee's BMS?
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Machining adapter plate via website
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) Re: AC Drives on Ebay
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Machining adapter plate via website
by Mike Sandman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Question about optimal gear ratio and where to get gearboxes
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: 36 Volt Caterpillar Forklift Drive Motor #6R550 Cat
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: lectro electric forklift 30-24A
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Machining adapter plate via website
by "gary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: adding end cap - continued Golf Cart motors
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: 640hp Mini
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Another GTE in the ev album
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: 640hp Mini
by Mark Dutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: 640hp Mini
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: 640hp Mini (BMW) converted by PML and partners .. UK
by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: 640hp Mini
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: lectro electric forklift 30-24A
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) dc/dc
by dale henderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Again, false myths spun around by media.
While one can agree with the article in general, i.e. i.e. GM should
stop talking and actually deliver something, there are sore sticking
points in it:
"GM has showed an attractive plug-in electric prototype called the Chevy Volt"
Well, GM has not showed anything like an electric prototype, in the
E-Flex/Volt context. Prototype is something that would run. GM Volt
that they have shown, is far from a working car, i.e. it is an empty
shell. Powered by a small DC motor to roll around on show floors at
5mph top.
The thing lacks basically everything that makes a car a car, i.e.
supension, powertrain with transmission etc.
Its just a shell with four wheels, not a car.
Tesla Motors vice president of marketing, Darryl Siry has a detailed
account on this @ http://sirymarketing.blogspot.com/
Another sticking issue:
"The trouble is that such lithium-ion battery packs for cars do not exist"
This is flat out wrong. In march 2007, there are many cars all around
the world propelled by juice coming from lithium batteries. None of
them generally available to the public from a big auto company, as of
yet, but the battery packs definitely DO exist.
There are many DIY EV conversions, there is Tesla Motors and their
Roadster, there are a lot of smaller players in EV market coming out
with lithium packs for their vehicles and a lot of them are in testing
right now.
A simple query on sites like AutoBlogGreen or GreenCarCongress will
turn up dozens of articles on that.
Actually, to be precise, a certain supercar builder, Venturi, has been
building production car with lithium-ion battery pack for a few years
now. So the cars _are_ available to the consumer, except that the
consumer has to be filthy rich to afford one.
One more important point, often glossed over, is that GM had a running
series-hybrid, with a similar powertrain to proposed Volt in 1999. It
was based on EV1, with its NiMH batteries. (
http://www.autoworld.com/news/GMC/Series_Hybrid.htm )
As to why they are not utilizing the technology they had, in working
configuration eight years ago, is anybodys guess and should be asked
more loudly.
/kert
On 3/15/07, bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
EVLN(GM needs to stop talking & get Job One done)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?DID=RSS&n=192&sid=192&article=12067
GM's Big Plug-In Talk by Jerry Flint (2007-03-14)
GM needs to stop talking as if Job One were tomorrow.
[image
http://www.thecarconnection.com/zoom-image.asp?/images/gallery/11572_QIJLIAENVULGK.jpg
2007 Chevrolet Volt Concept]
It's an old Sinatra tune, but it gives me trouble: "Got my tweed
pressed, got my best vest, all I need now is the girl."
What does that mean? The guy in the song has nothing without the
girl.
I have the same trouble with all the talk from General Motors
about building the 100-miles-to-the-gallon plug-in electric
hybrid Volt in 2010. Robert Lutz, the Vice Chairman, says there
is an internal target for production by that year. Other GM
people also have used that date, but Lutz is not afraid to stand
up and say this for attribution. The problem, says Lutz and
others from GM, is that they do not have the batteries yet.
All they need is the batteries? Without the batteries, there is
nothing. And GM's battery people, who held a briefing Monday, say
lots of work remains to be done before the battery systems are
ready for production. Lots. After listening to that briefing, I
would not expect mass production in three years.
So how can the other side of the company talk of building such a
vehicle if you do not have the batteries? Mind you, I think
Robert Lutz is the best, the heart of the GM recovery. He has
done wonders, and more vehicles reflecting his terrific influence
are on the way. Lutz is honest, too, and he showed some doubts
about the electric car: "I would say there is still a ten-percent
chance this will fail."
Cheap promises
I think that no one at GM should say anything that sounds like a
promise - even with a disclaimer - when it comes to miraculous
fuel-saving vehicles. The company has talked too much through the
years. Talk is cheap.
Over the years, I remember too many press events for GM engine
miracles that did not happen or have yet to happen. Such promises
include a new steam engine, the rotary motor, a revival of the
Sterling engine (invented by an English clergyman in the 19th
century and a GM research favorite a few decades ago), the
hydrogen fuel-cell engine, and "dual-mode" hybrid systems for
trucks which are promised for later this year.
Patrick Bedard of Car and Driver magazine remembers a GM
president promising an electric car in production by 1980 (I
remember a Ford vice chairman promising one, too). Bedard says
that GM's promises are like bouncing rubber checks, and we should
not trust folks that pass out bouncing checks.
"What is it about battery-powered cars that make dreamers, and
the press, and dreamers in the press, go full-court cuckoo for
them?" Bedard writes.
Roger Smith, Robert Stempel, and Jack Smith - all one-time GM
chief executives - supported the electric car. Now the current
boss, Rick Wagoner, is touting the electric plug-in hybrid, and
Bob Lutz seems all for it, too.
Lutz and everyone else at GM should stay away from promising
production dates to the press if there is a reasonable
probability that the company will not be able to make the
deadline. Toyota knows more about exotic batteries that any other
automaker in the world. They are working on plug-ins, too. Toyota
told me it is going to be a good while before we see the system
work. I believe Toyota.
So if GM does not get electric car production in 2010, you can
bet there will be a public television documentary titled, Who
Killed the Plug-In Car, blaming GM. There will be a book,
Unplugged at Any Speed, blaming GM for deliberately sabotaging
man's last hope to end our addiction to oil, and a movie, A
Really Inconvenient Truth, featuring an animated polar bear who
sings "It's too darn hot," and blames GM's failure as a victory
for global warming. Do not forget the million blogs condemning
GM, too.
An inside re-Volt
GM has showed an attractive plug-in electric prototype called the
Chevy Volt, and it is betting that engineers can develop a
battery pack of lithium-ion batteries that can run the car for 40
miles or so and last 100,000 miles and ten years. The Volt also
has a small gasoline engine, but its power does not go to the
wheels. Instead the engine runs a generator to create electric
power when the batteries run down, extending the vehicle's
driving range. Drivers could recharge the batteries at night at
home, by plugging in the car.
The trouble is that such lithium-ion battery packs for cars do
not exist. Today's hybrids use nickel-metal hydride batteries and
they are not good enough for this plug-in concept. The Toyota
Prius, the most popular of all hybrids, can run under electric
power alone, but only for short distances on its nickel-metal
hydride batteries. The Prius may start under electric power, but
it quickly switches over to a small gasoline engine that powers
the wheels most of the time. The battery pack also pushes some
extra power to the wheels when needed.
Lithium-ion batteries are common. Manufacturers make millions of
them every year, and they power relatively small devices like
laptop computers, cell phones, portable music players, and power
tools. These batteries have problems with heat buildup, among
other things. Propelling 3000 pounds for 40 miles at 65 miles per
hour is not the same as powering up a Dell. Some day we may have
lithium ion or other exotic battery packs for cars, but it could
take many more years to iron out the technical bugs and
manufacture such batteries in quantity.
That is why it is dangerous to toss out dates like 2010 for this
plug-in electric hybrid.
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
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'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has anyone used emachineshop.com before? It looks like a great site, but the
motor adapter plate is a high precision part. Do you recommend just finding a
local shop to do it? I'm located in Los Angeles. Can anyone recommend a shop?
Thanks!
- Tony
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ian wrote -
>I was looking through the archives and didn't see any specific list
> of what all this stuff would do and what would be needed for how many
> batteries and whatnot. Price as well? Could someone list this info
> off again if they've got it handy?
I've corresponded with Lee about his balancer and this is from his emails -
"The "Battery Balancer" is what we're talking about here. That's what is
described on the Balancerland website. And yes; it can function as a
charger, DC/DC, monitor, and balancer. There are also other features,
such as battery temperaturature monitoring and control, and controlling
a separate main charger.
As a charger, it is only charging one battery at a time. So, it would
take a long time to fully charge a big pack all by itself. A single
Vicor puts out 15a at 12v, and you can have two of them; this gives you
a 30amp max charge rate per battery. For example, a pack of a dozen 12v
batteries that are discharged 30ah discharge would take a minimum of 24
hours to recharge (1 hour each for bulk, and 1 hour each for finishing).
In my EV, I have twelve 12v batteries and only one Vicor. So, I have a
separate "third world" charger which does the bulk charging (a big
isolation transformer and rectifier). It does the bulk charging; then
the Battery Balancer shuts it off and does the finishing charges.
The PFCxx and Balancer do different things. The PFCxx is
primarily a simple dumb charger that happens to be power factor
corrected. When you add his Regulators, they just clamp the batteries at
a particular voltage. It's is a dissipative process; it makes heat which
you have to deal with. This means they will all be at the same state of
charge at the end of a charge cycle (100% SOC). But it does nothing at
all while parked or driving.
The Balancer is primarily a charger *controller*, not the charger
itself. It watches the main charger (which can be a PFC-xx) and can shut
it off when "full".
It then charges each battery individually to balance them. This process
is non-dissipative (isn't burning up excesss charging energy as heat),
so it can take place any time; while parked or driving as well as while
charging.
If your pack is well balanced, the Balancer spends most of its time as
your DC/DC converter.
For my Balancer, I figure I have to order about 10 sets of parts to even
bother to make another batch of them. The 10-piece price is HALF
the 1-piece price!"
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
www.Airphibian.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would recommend Electro Automotive. They know the often missed details
involved in EV adaptors. Read this page carefully:
http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/adaptors.shtml.
They did my adaptor and it is truly a work of art!
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 6:21 AM
Subject: Machining adapter plate via website
Has anyone used emachineshop.com before? It looks like a great site, but the
motor adapter plate is a high precision part. Do you recommend just finding a
local shop to do it? I'm located in Los Angeles. Can anyone recommend a shop?
Thanks!
- Tony
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from
AOL at AOL.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Gruenwald has converted many Reliance and Yaskawa
drives for EV's, including formula lighting vehicles.
Here's his Dodge van,
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/377
Formula Lightning
http://www.csee.wvu.edu/~formula/owners/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_Lightning
I couldn't find these in the EValbum?
Rod
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >From the nameplate of the drive shown and the size
> of the cabinet those
> appear to be about 1 HP drives. The 1333 AB drive
> is about 5 or 6 series
> old and are probably early 1990s vintage.
>
> As James mentioned the AB drives have firmware that
> checks for incoming
> phase loss and I haven't found a simple way to fool
> it into thinking the
> incoming lines are there.
>
> I have been asking every industrial drives
> distributer I deal with about
> using their drives with a DC input and have not had
> much positive feedback.
> I was able to talk to another one today at a seminar
> and he actually was
> encouraging so I will see what he is able to come up
> with. He actually
> admitted to doing a conversion in college back in
> the early 90s so he may be
> more sympathetic to the problem.
>
> respectfully,
> John
>
> John Neiswanger
> "The Skunk"
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/preview.php?vid=751
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EV Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 5:06 PM
> Subject: AC Drives on Ebay
>
>
> >I was searching around on Ebay, and found these:
> >
> > ALLEN BRABLEY ADJUSTABLE FREQUENCY AC MOTOR DRIVES
> >
> > Item number: 260094665248
> >
> > I wonder how hard it would be to adapt these to an
> EV usage....
> >
> > --
> > John G. Lussmyer
> mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> http://www.CasaDelGato.com
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
a friend of mine has had good experience with them. i do not want to
post his email address but if you send me an email
([EMAIL PROTECTED]) i can put you in touch with him.
-sandman
Tony Hwang wrote:
Has anyone used emachineshop.com before? It looks like a great site, but the
motor adapter plate is a high precision part. Do you recommend just finding a
local shop to do it? I'm located in Los Angeles. Can anyone recommend a shop?
Thanks!
- Tony
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Tony,
The best way is to test out the acceleration in each gear. My first gear
ratio of 19.5:1 has about the same acceleration of a 350 cu.in. engine that
was in the vehicle. As the rpm/speeds increases, I can reduce the gear
ratio maintaining about the same motor amperes or reducing it some.
Later, I am going to test out a 26:1 that will vary down to 16:1 in 1st gear
using a two speed lock up auto transmission that is set up for racing by
TCI automotive. In 2nd gear, the ratio will vary from 16:1 to 5.57:1.
This should give a smoother acceleration than my manual truck transmission
which is a bear to shift any more which the left leg is twice as big as the
right.
One time, I shatter the motor adapter coupling, because the taper lock
bushing was cut to thin where the set screws went in. I accidentally let my
foot slip off the brake onto the accelerator which gave full acceleration of
the motor in 1st gear, which felt like I was hit in the rear by a semi going
100 mph.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Hwang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 2:06 AM
Subject: Re: Question about optimal gear ratio and where to get gearboxes
> Thanks Roland! So, I calculated, assuming 7000RPM max, the following for
> my Scion xA, with AC55 delta motor:
>
> TIRE/WHEEL:
> 75 inches circumfrence
> 23.74 inches diameter
>
> STATS:
> max motor rpm, 7000
> 15.2574 ratio in 1st
> 8.189 ratio in 2nd
> 5.6461 in 3rd
>
> TOP SPEEDS:
> mph 1st=33mph
> mph 2nd=60mph
> mph 3rd=87mph
>
> The actual max motor rpm is 8000, so I'm being a little conservative here.
> The stock Scion xA's 5MT power/torque curve is here:
>
> http://www.remus.dti.ne.jp/~pochiinu/001Vitz-TechInfo/Taco/0411NZ-EGSC.jpg
>
> Left is power, right is torque, bottom is rpm.
>
> The power/torque curve for the AC55 is (blue and pink lines):
>
> http://thsoftware.com/linked/ac55-motor-stats.jpg
>
> So, a 60mph top speed is too slow, so I'm thinking of locking the gearbox
> in 3rd gear. Since the electric motor has twice the torque early on versus
> the ICE engine, would 3rd be ok? Or would the acceleration be too slow?
> I'm hoping for comparable, or slightly faster acceleration versus the ICE
> engine (0 to 60 in 10 seconds or so for the ICE engine).
>
> - Tony
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 7:45:58 AM
> Subject: Re: Question about optimal gear ratio and where to get gearboxes
>
> Hello Tony,
>
> I first start out with this formula when designing any prime mover system:
>
> RPM x Tire Circumference
> RPM = --------------------------
> Overall Gear Ratio x 1056
>
> To find the tire circumference, mark a reference point on the floor and
> tire
> and rotate the tire until the tire mark is touching the floor and measure
> between the marks.
>
> The overall gear ratio is the transmission gear in the selected gear you
> are
> in times the differential gear ratio.
>
> For example, my 1st gear ratio is 3.5:1 and the differential ratio is
> 5.57:1, so the overall ratio in 1st gear is 3.5 x 5.57 = 19.495:1
>
> My wheel circumference is 90 inches and maximum motor rpm is 6000 rpm, so:
>
>
> 6000 x 90
> mph = ------------ = 26.23 mph in 1st gear
> 19.495 x 1056
>
> I can accelerated to 25 mph moving 7000 lbs of weight at a normal
> acceleration of any of vehicle in traffic and the maximum ampere will peak
> to about 300 amps, then at cruse at 25 mph, the motor amperes comes back
> to
> 125 amps.
>
> In second gear which is a 13.5:1 overall ratio, the motor amps goes to
> about
> 500 amps if I start out in this gear.
>
> TCI Automotive makes up transmissions with any gear ratio you want, which
> I
> am going to test out this year.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tony Hwang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 4:27 AM
> Subject: Question about optimal gear ratio and where to get gearboxes
>
>
> > I hear the number 10:1 thrown around, and it's also used in custom
> > gearboxes for the AC24, and MES DEA motors.
> >
> > I'm wondering, given a motor torque/rpm curve, how would one calculate
> > the
> > optimal gear ratio? Efficiency, acceleration, top speed, etc, would all
> > have to be balanced. I'm not sure where to begin. Also, where does one
> > get
> > a custom gearbox/diff made? I did some googling and couldn't find
> > anything
> > except custom racing transmissions which I don't need. I need just a one
> > ratio gearbox. Would a torque limiter, or something that allows slip, be
> > needed to protect the motor?
> >
> > - Tony
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Mike
Looks like a 6.7" to me, kinda hard to see through the
filmwrap though. I doubt it'a a 7" by the freight
charges. I doubt the shaft is going to be very
useable, probaby a fine tooth spline. It does appear
to have theads on the end though. Maybe enough meat
there to machine down so you could key it.
They don't list the motor number either which I might
have a cross ref. number. If you were looking for
this Cat motor the price would be really good, as a
small EV motor it's kind of high. Without a number I
have no idea what kind of fields it has inside.
Hope this helps.
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
--- Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Does anyone have a bead on what size motor this is
> from Caterpilar? (Jim)?
> ...and if its worth $380
>
> ebay Item number: 170091531039
>
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/36-Volt-Caterpillar-Forklift-Drive-Motor-6R550-Cat_W0QQitemZ170091531039QQcategoryZ109507QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem?
> hash=item170091531039
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Mike and All,
mike golub wrote:
Hey
I'm going to tow this lectro electric forklift 30-24a
home tomorrow, using a tilt bed trailer.
Though I've worked on Lectro lift trucks, I don't know that exact model.
Are you sure the trailer you're going to use can handle the weight? Even
small lift trucks can weigh 7000+ lbs., most average size ones are in
the 10,000 lb. range. Does it have its battery installed still? If not,
it will be very unstable and could tip over on you!
Do they brakes work without power?
Yes, they work quite well without power! In fact, they stay nicely
locked 'on' without power, and need power to be released.
Pretty much all stand-up type electric forklift brake systems are
designed as 'deadman' pedals, meaning that if the operator is off the
truck, the brakes stay in the applied mode...not what you wanted to
hear, I know :-) Most electric trucks have spring pressure applied,
electrically released brakes. Raymond lift trucks are most often spring
pressure applied, hydraulically released brakes..arghh!! If your truck
is a stand-up model and has the electrically released type (90% of
stand-up electric trucks are like this), you should be able to unplug
the brake coils and power them up with a couple of small 12V batteries
wired in series for the truck's operating voltage, but be aware that
lift trucks are extremely heavy and very dangerous. You can be killed by
a runaway lift truck with its brakes disengaged!
If the truck is a sit-down type 3 or 4 wheel design, then it more than
likely has brakes that more resemble a car's system...brakes only held
on by a park brake handle or pedal.
In any case, please be safe and realize how heavy this truck will be. If
it's a stand-up model, also know that even if the brake is on, if the
truck hits uneven pavement, is can careen out of control as its drive
tire breaks contact with the floor and it becomes a coasting mass on its
outriggers and caster wheel. The brakes on a stand-up are usually
attached to the drive motor's com. end shaft, so if the drive tire
losses traction, you've got no brakes!
I was hoping I could just roll it down the ramp?
Again, please be VERY careful. Lift trucks can be very dangerous.
Yesterday, I stood up a newly delivered 10,000 lb. Crown electric reach
truck...a two man, two forklift job, that makes parts of your anatomy
pucker! The week before, I helped unload a massive 14 ft. tall, 19,000
lb. Crown electric turret truck off the back of a semi with/beaver tail
trailer...that was an interesting ride, too!
See Ya...John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I know of people having good luck with "reverse auctions" on-line. You
email a CAD file and get bids, then a shop plugs in your CAD file during
their slow time and ships it to you. I imagine the quality will be as
good as the drawing so the important part would be getting accurate
measurements. Sorry, no web links.
That emachine website does look like it's worth a try, good idea. We
used to have our prototype circuit boards made thru expresspcb.com -
same idea and it worked great.
gary
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tony Hwang
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 5:22 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Machining adapter plate via website
Has anyone used emachineshop.com before? It looks like a great site, but
the motor adapter plate is a high precision part. Do you recommend just
finding a local shop to do it? I'm located in Los Angeles. Can anyone
recommend a shop? Thanks!
- Tony
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 3/13/2007 8:53:46 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Brush and comm issue probably relate to load (current) more than voltage.
Run your vehicle about as hard as a golf cart, with two fat golfers and clubs,
and it will probably last a while. Back off when you can fry spit on the
motor frame.>>>
I'm running a three wheeler on the street using a 8HP "aftermarket" golf
cart motor. After a ten mile run, on a warm day, the motor is getting almost
that hot.....I cruise at 50 to 65 amps, per the ampmeter....
For those interested in electric golf cart projects, there is a forum for
just that. There's a big culture in hopping up electric carts (mostly in the
S.E. US) and this is their discussion forum.... It was invaluable to me as I
was starting out as a VERY green novice in the EV scene last year!
_http://server1.buggiesunlimited.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=13&sid=fa94ec2f3fc
c0d5e624965141f729e9a_
(http://server1.buggiesunlimited.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=13&sid=fa94ec2f3fcc0d5e624965141f729e9a)
<BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free
email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at
http://www.aol.com.
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello to David and All,
David Dymaxion wrote:
I agree, I want to see timeslips!
Same.
However, I think they are just engaging in marketing-speak that many companies
do.
That's not a valid excuse. Claiming the car has 640 hp, when it doesn't,
is just BS, plain and simple.
0 to 60 mph (~100 km/hr) in 2 seconds? What can do that?
Any car the approximate size and weight of that Mini and packing a
'real' 640 hp!
Vehicles at the track I witness first hand that can run low 10 second -
high 9 second 1/4 mile ETs, run 0-60 in under 3 seconds. Those that run
in the low nines - high 8s are doing it in the 2-2.5 second range.
Example...a guy who sometimes turns up at PIR, has a Honda Civic with a
dyno tested 650 hp nitrous injected turbocharged 4 banger...when it can
hook up, it runs low 9s in the 1/4 mile and is at 110 mph by the time a
Viper with a 3.8 second 0-60 time is at 60. With super wide, sticky
wrinkle wall slicks on the front, this Honda from hell is still breaking
traction at 135 mph....we can all hear it breaking them loose, we can
hear the motor rpms spike way up, and we see the car fishtailing and
trying to jump off the track! That's what a real 650 hp is like, in a
car the size of that Mini.
Did you mean 4 seconds, or high 3 seconds maybe?
No, I meant 2 seconds. Bill Dube's drag bike hits 60 in 1.4 seconds
while running a high 8. This insanely powerful 650 hp Honda catapults
off the line just like Dube's bike, and does the same kind of 1/4 mile
times (maybe a pinch slower in the low 9s). I've seen it do 10 flat in a
run where he had to get out of it three or four times during the 1/4
mile blast due to loss of traction at very high speeds. Those type of
runs are scary to witness! Again, a real 650 hp in a Mini-sized car
behaves this way.
The only street legal production car I have ever heard of hitting the 2's is
the Bugatti Veyron, a million dollar car.
Note that I did not specify a street legal car in my comparison...I only
addressed what a real 650 hp in a small car is like, as in the Honda I
mentioned. Trust me, if that Mini had even 250 hp, it would do 0-60 in
around 4-4.5 seconds. If it barely cracks 5 seconds, there's no way it
has 300 hp, let alone that ridiculous claim of 640 hp.
I think this debate is best solved by a race! I'd love to see this mini run
against some NEDRA guys
Bring them on! We'd love to see a time slip. We'd have to give them a
head start on us to even the playing field :-)
We'll have about 4-6 more real time slips that we'll share with everyone
after this coming Saturday when we take White Zombie to the track for
the first time with its new more powerful battery pack (warm and dry
weather is predicted for this weekend, after months of
high 20s to low 40s, snow, wind, and rain type weather). We will not be
turning up the current beyond the 1000 amps we ran last year, even
though the new twin pack (2 X 360V) of 60 small Genesis batteries can
safely output up to 1500 amps. We feel that left at that 1000 amp
restriction (500 amps from each battery) with far less voltage sag under
that load compared to the previous pack, the new pack will deliver 60
more volts @ 1000 amps...60 kw 'more' power! That translates into about
45-50 more delivered motor hp and it 'may' be enough to break into the
high 11s...I guess we'll see. We'll progressively crank up the power,
weekend after weekend, until we eventually try the full 1500 battery
amps (~100 extra hp at the motor).
When you work as hard as the dedicated Plasma Boy Racing crew does to
show the world that electrics can deliver performance, it really rubs
you the wrong way when hyperbole like this Mini situation is presented.
Unlike the theoretical 640 hp Mini, we actually race White Zombie on a
regular basis. Over and over, we substantiate our performance claims
with time slips in hand. Car and Driver magazine, the world's largest
car magazine, also has a handful of White Zombie time slips that their
own road tester / writer Ted West earned. They will soon be
substantiating our's and 'their' performance claims for White Zombie in
the May issue.
See Ya....John Wayland
A quote to remember: e.t.’s are e.t.’s, and time slips don’t lie.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Bill
Nice work, thanks for the update, Always good to see
another EV up and running!
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
--- Bill & Nancy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I got my Bradley GTE entered in the ev album today.
> Another electric on
> the road.
> Bill
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Finding fabulous fares is fun.
Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel
bargains.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mar 15, 2007, at 7:31 AM, John Wayland wrote:
Note that I did not specify a street legal car in my comparison...I
only addressed what a real 650 hp in a small car is like, as in the
Honda I mentioned. Trust me, if that Mini had even 250 hp, it would
do 0-60 in around 4-4.5 seconds. If it barely cracks 5 seconds,
there's no way it has 300 hp, let alone that ridiculous claim of
640 hp.
Assuming it weighs very little with 250 HP. I wish my now sold 05
modified mini with LSD and 268HP could to do that. Too bad the Mini
has a curb weight of 2600, is a nightmare to disassemble, and has
such complicated electronics, it would be a fun city car to convert.
I did not see a mention of the cars weight in the article?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
arent torque numbers and weight much more interesting metrics when
discussing 0-60 accel than the peak power ?
-kert
On 3/15/07, Mark Dutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Mar 15, 2007, at 7:31 AM, John Wayland wrote:
> Note that I did not specify a street legal car in my comparison...I
> only addressed what a real 650 hp in a small car is like, as in the
> Honda I mentioned. Trust me, if that Mini had even 250 hp, it would
> do 0-60 in around 4-4.5 seconds. If it barely cracks 5 seconds,
> there's no way it has 300 hp, let alone that ridiculous claim of
> 640 hp.
>
Assuming it weighs very little with 250 HP. I wish my now sold 05
modified mini with LSD and 268HP could to do that. Too bad the Mini
has a curb weight of 2600, is a nightmare to disassemble, and has
such complicated electronics, it would be a fun city car to convert.
I did not see a mention of the cars weight in the article?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jukka,
Say they would be at Kokams performance level. How much sag is on ProEv
while accelerating ? (I dunno) Cliff, educate us ! Take a 10C discharge.
Single cell testing:
The 70 amp-hr Kokam cells we worked with dropped to 2.8 volts as soon as you
loaded them to 10C (700 amps) and then quickly bounced back and stay around
3.0 volts. So for 81 cells it should be 243 volts.
Race testing: From http://www.proev.com/RRptPgs/R040001b.htm
"Our maximum amps were around 630 amps which at one point we held for 13.5
seconds. During that time voltage dropped immediately to 276 volts and over
the next 13 seconds to 260 volts. This was the section for turn 4 to turn 5.
The rpm went from 3750 to 4950. Torque started at 286 lbf-ft and dropped off
to 192."
88 cells, so 3.14 volt dropping to 2.95 volt.
Love the high tech wheel chocks on the mini
http://www.worldcarfans.com/news/2060724.006/2060724.006.2M.jpg
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, I must say that I stand corrected on the two second issue. I should
have known that Mr. Wayland was refering to cars that people race. He has
been known to attend a few of these events. I too should have known better,
even my two ton plus postal van "Gone Postal" would launch from 0 to 44 mph
in 1.89 seconds. This is an over one G launch. Yes I have the time slip to
prove it. To put this into perspective the 500 horsepower Lamborghini
Gallardo does 0 to 40 mph in 2.8 seconds and weighs almost a thousand pounds
less. My apologies to Mr. Wayland for even the slightest amount of doubt I
may have alluded to in my post.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
PS: In order to see some real time slips in person and meet some of the
outrageous characters that make up NEDRA don't forget to book your flight
for the Wayland Invitational.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 7:31 AM
Subject: Re: 640hp Mini
Hello to David and All,
David Dymaxion wrote:
I agree, I want to see timeslips!
Same.
However, I think they are just engaging in marketing-speak that many
companies do.
That's not a valid excuse. Claiming the car has 640 hp, when it doesn't,
is just BS, plain and simple.
0 to 60 mph (~100 km/hr) in 2 seconds? What can do that?
Any car the approximate size and weight of that Mini and packing a
'real' 640 hp!
Vehicles at the track I witness first hand that can run low 10 second -
high 9 second 1/4 mile ETs, run 0-60 in under 3 seconds. Those that run
in the low nines - high 8s are doing it in the 2-2.5 second range.
Example...a guy who sometimes turns up at PIR, has a Honda Civic with a
dyno tested 650 hp nitrous injected turbocharged 4 banger...when it can
hook up, it runs low 9s in the 1/4 mile and is at 110 mph by the time a
Viper with a 3.8 second 0-60 time is at 60. With super wide, sticky
wrinkle wall slicks on the front, this Honda from hell is still breaking
traction at 135 mph....we can all hear it breaking them loose, we can
hear the motor rpms spike way up, and we see the car fishtailing and
trying to jump off the track! That's what a real 650 hp is like, in a
car the size of that Mini.
Did you mean 4 seconds, or high 3 seconds maybe?
No, I meant 2 seconds. Bill Dube's drag bike hits 60 in 1.4 seconds
while running a high 8. This insanely powerful 650 hp Honda catapults
off the line just like Dube's bike, and does the same kind of 1/4 mile
times (maybe a pinch slower in the low 9s). I've seen it do 10 flat in a
run where he had to get out of it three or four times during the 1/4
mile blast due to loss of traction at very high speeds. Those type of
runs are scary to witness! Again, a real 650 hp in a Mini-sized car
behaves this way.
The only street legal production car I have ever heard of hitting the 2's
is the Bugatti Veyron, a million dollar car.
Note that I did not specify a street legal car in my comparison...I only
addressed what a real 650 hp in a small car is like, as in the Honda I
mentioned. Trust me, if that Mini had even 250 hp, it would do 0-60 in
around 4-4.5 seconds. If it barely cracks 5 seconds, there's no way it
has 300 hp, let alone that ridiculous claim of 640 hp.
I think this debate is best solved by a race! I'd love to see this mini run
against some NEDRA guys
Bring them on! We'd love to see a time slip. We'd have to give them a
head start on us to even the playing field :-)
We'll have about 4-6 more real time slips that we'll share with everyone
after this coming Saturday when we take White Zombie to the track for
the first time with its new more powerful battery pack (warm and dry
weather is predicted for this weekend, after months of
high 20s to low 40s, snow, wind, and rain type weather). We will not be
turning up the current beyond the 1000 amps we ran last year, even
though the new twin pack (2 X 360V) of 60 small Genesis batteries can
safely output up to 1500 amps. We feel that left at that 1000 amp
restriction (500 amps from each battery) with far less voltage sag under
that load compared to the previous pack, the new pack will deliver 60
more volts @ 1000 amps...60 kw 'more' power! That translates into about
45-50 more delivered motor hp and it 'may' be enough to break into the
high 11s...I guess we'll see. We'll progressively crank up the power,
weekend after weekend, until we eventually try the full 1500 battery
amps (~100 extra hp at the motor).
When you work as hard as the dedicated Plasma Boy Racing crew does to
show the world that electrics can deliver performance, it really rubs
you the wrong way when hyperbole like this Mini situation is presented.
Unlike the theoretical 640 hp Mini, we actually race White Zombie on a
regular basis. Over and over, we substantiate our performance claims
with time slips in hand. Car and Driver magazine, the world's largest
car magazine, also has a handful of White Zombie time slips that their
own road tester / writer Ted West earned. They will soon be
substantiating our's and 'their' performance claims for White Zombie in
the May issue.
See Ya....John Wayland
A quote to remember: e.t.’s are e.t.’s, and time slips don’t lie.
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.11/723 - Release Date: 3/15/2007
11:27 AM
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks
it weighs 6200 lbs, trailer can handle it.
it still has the battery inside
sit down type.
I will off load it onto a snow covered driveway.
Thanks again
Mike G.
Fairbanks, AK
--- John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello Mike and All,
>
> mike golub wrote:
>
> >Hey
> >
> >I'm going to tow this lectro electric forklift
> 30-24a
> >home tomorrow, using a tilt bed trailer.
> >
> >
>
> Though I've worked on Lectro lift trucks, I don't
> know that exact model.
> Are you sure the trailer you're going to use can
> handle the weight? Even
> small lift trucks can weigh 7000+ lbs., most average
> size ones are in
> the 10,000 lb. range. Does it have its battery
> installed still? If not,
> it will be very unstable and could tip over on you!
>
> >Do they brakes work without power?
> >
> >
>
> Yes, they work quite well without power! In fact,
> they stay nicely
> locked 'on' without power, and need power to be
> released.
> Pretty much all stand-up type electric forklift
> brake systems are
> designed as 'deadman' pedals, meaning that if the
> operator is off the
> truck, the brakes stay in the applied mode...not
> what you wanted to
> hear, I know :-) Most electric trucks have spring
> pressure applied,
> electrically released brakes. Raymond lift trucks
> are most often spring
> pressure applied, hydraulically released
> brakes..arghh!! If your truck
> is a stand-up model and has the electrically
> released type (90% of
> stand-up electric trucks are like this), you should
> be able to unplug
> the brake coils and power them up with a couple of
> small 12V batteries
> wired in series for the truck's operating voltage,
> but be aware that
> lift trucks are extremely heavy and very dangerous.
> You can be killed by
> a runaway lift truck with its brakes disengaged!
>
> If the truck is a sit-down type 3 or 4 wheel design,
> then it more than
> likely has brakes that more resemble a car's
> system...brakes only held
> on by a park brake handle or pedal.
>
> In any case, please be safe and realize how heavy
> this truck will be. If
> it's a stand-up model, also know that even if the
> brake is on, if the
> truck hits uneven pavement, is can careen out of
> control as its drive
> tire breaks contact with the floor and it becomes a
> coasting mass on its
> outriggers and caster wheel. The brakes on a
> stand-up are usually
> attached to the drive motor's com. end shaft, so if
> the drive tire
> losses traction, you've got no brakes!
>
> >I was hoping I could just roll it down the ramp?
> >
> >
> >
> Again, please be VERY careful. Lift trucks can be
> very dangerous.
> Yesterday, I stood up a newly delivered 10,000 lb.
> Crown electric reach
> truck...a two man, two forklift job, that makes
> parts of your anatomy
> pucker! The week before, I helped unload a massive
> 14 ft. tall, 19,000
> lb. Crown electric turret truck off the back of a
> semi with/beaver tail
> trailer...that was an interesting ride, too!
>
> See Ya...John Wayland
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
does any one know where to get a dc/dc converter that can handle around 150 amp
cont and 500 amp peak from a 48 volt source converting to 36 volt?
Albuquerque, NM
http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1000
http://geocities.com/solarcookingman
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