EV Digest 6587
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Magnecharger
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) EV Withdrawal
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) battery balancer idea, taping from middle of pack for 12V power
by Tony Hwang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Sharing what I have learned so far in the NIMH experiments
by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: We Blow Things Up, So You Don't Have To...2007
by "james s" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: new DC series motor run-in?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Test.
by "Martin Klingensmith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EV list: Become a Big brother or sister
by "Martin Klingensmith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EV list: Become a Big brother or sister
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: A few newbie questions.
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Prius battery packs
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: EV Withdrawal
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Newbie melts a battery terminal
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: ARGGG, destroying expensive lifepo4 cells. :( Need a
"button" fuse.
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EV Withdrawal
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: City El
by "bortel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: We Blow Things Up, So You Don't Have To...2007
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: We Blow Things Up, So You Don't Have To...2007
by "Andrew Kane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: City El
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: FAST(er) NEV's - Update HB 1820 Washington State
by "bortel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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One of our club members got a Magnecharger and has some trouble with it. This
is what he has encountered -
I wired up the charger to 240 VAC. Turned on the breaker. The unit appeared
to be energized. I inserted the wan into the charger that goes on the car. I
measured the voltage at the charger output and it was 0 VDC. The pedestal
charger has a cable coming out of it. The cable looks like a control cable.
What is the function of this cable. A system wiring diagram would be nice a
set of schematics would be better.
Can anyone help him?
TIA
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
www.Airphibian.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Man, I gave back the loaner scooter last week (mine has a cracked
frame) and now the EVDL is down (getting a makeover?)
This must be what withdrawal symptoms are like. ;-)
Lock
Toronto
human-electric hybrid ped
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
So, I was thinking, instead of having a balancer that
bleeds strong cells during discharge, wasting the energy, how about a
balancer that taps the strongest cells in the pack to power the 12V
system? Maybe with a 24-12V DC-DC converter.
It would maybe
every minute, find the highest voltage cells, and switch the
connections to those high cells using relays. Maybe divide the pack up
into 24V subpacks, and tap into those, it would keep each 24V subpack
in balance. For a 312V pack, you'd need 14 relays, maybe with 30A
capability? The cells in each 24V subpack would not be balanced during
discharge, though.
Or maybe every 30 seconds, if minute is too large of a unit.
- Tony
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--- Begin Message ---
I have been running experiments trying to find a good home for a few hundred
NiMH F cells that came out of a friend's EV project. He did not have a good
BMS and his battery setup ended in a fire that damaged about half the cells. I
am in the process of sorting through and trying make something of what is left.
So far, I have discovered:
1. These particular 13 AH F cells do not do very well in high rates of
discharge. They were originally fused at 40 A, but I don't feel good about
taking these particular (now used) cells above 2C (26 Amps). I am concerned
about cycle life and overall performance at discharge above 2C. This is just
my opinion on these used cells. New ones may be a lot better.
2. The cells are "nearly impossible" to charge repeatably and reliably in
parallel. Even at very slow charge rates, with attempts to keep the max
voltage below a critical value, I can't get good consistent results. If you
"fully discharge" them - down to about 0.9 V / cell and then try to put in a
constant current for a fixed time period, it may give some fair to poor
results. Beyond that, I have had no luck trying to charge them in parallel. I
thought just putting a 13.2 V constant voltage supply across them and letting
them sit would charge them. Well, the experiment did not work well. At least
not the way I did it. I tried just charging them with a lead acid charger at 2
A rate. Unless you accurately know the initial state of charge and use a
timer, that doesn't work well either. I also wanted to limit surge current
between the strings with polyswitches, but they don't sell ones rated for that
low of a current.
3. That all means that charging is a very serious issue and expensive, bulky
and heavy to overcome. All I can come up with as a good reliable solution is
12 individual small 1 A smart NiMH chargers for each of the 84 cell strings.
That is one 1 A charger per each group of 7 cells. These chargers would have
to be very inexpensive, small and light weight to make this worth while. I am
yet to find such a solution. Also, the system is a reliability nightmare to
deal with a failure on any of those many many connections.
4. Discharging seems to be no issue. Simply put a diode and 13 A polyswitch
in series with each string. They can't "cross charge" that way and the output
is limited to 1C average and about 2 C peak, which is what I wanted. I don't
know how long the polyswitches will last though. They may be a consumable in
this setup.
5. Power density, even with all the mechanical "stuff" to hook the cells
together and mount them in the car. I'd say at least 30-40% better than AGM
lead acid. Maybe 50% if you find ways to save weight on the structure.
6. I don't see any way to run a car, even a small one like mine, purely on
these particular (now used) F cells. Even if I had a few thousand of them. At
a 2C max discharge, I'd need 3360 of these cells and 480 individual small
chargers. That is "nearly impossible" to hook up and probably would not fit in
the car. Better cells would be a different story.
7. Hooking up the cells is also a dilema. You need a DC parallel spot welder
(which I am very familiar with), but they are expensive. I ended up using very
high grade battery holders that can handle only about 25 A. That is another
reason why I can't go over 2C discharge.
So, I'm not sure where all this is going. I need to run some more
experiments with charging at different rates and peak voltages. I am open to
suggestions.
Overall, I have to say that this is not the type of project an inexperienced
person of beginner to the EV world should try. There is a serious danger if
these cells are used improperly. Because I have a lot of experience making
these packs, I am comfortable with the tests that I am running, but I would not
recommend it to the average EV enthusiest. I am open to comments and
suggestions.
Steve
---------------------------------
Looking for earth-friendly autos?
Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I for one love what you guys are doing and read the stories avidly and
forward these off to my family and friends, KEEP IT UP!!! I just
don't usually post as I have nothing to contribute and put my foot in
my mouth messing up the facts ;( I can't wait to eventually get out
to the West Coast for an EVent but have been very content to make the
East Coast EVents for now. It's been great to meet everyone who's
made it out to PofDC the last two years, Joliet last year and the past
BBB.
James Sullivan,
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
On 3/22/07, Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Mike, Thanks for responding. I have noticed over a period of time that
there does not seem to be a lot of responses to items of this nature. I do
not really know if people on the List do not really care about pressing the
envelope of EV performance or not.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Jim,
Thanks for your comments.
I should be getting my GE motor in about two weeks. They had it for about
two years. The problem was that the same guy that built it is not around
any more and took them about a year to get the winding data from the
Electric Fuel Propulsion company that once was base in Troy, Mich.
They only built six of these motors using a standard traction motor frame
which was wound in a certain way. The weak spot in one of the windings was
cause by the rear end bell pressing against the wire which flatten it some,
and after thirty years it finally open.
When this winding open, it cut this coil in half and look like shot gun
blast went out which turn up all the other windings.
The rear bell housing was custom made to fit any bell housing of a
transmission and they made it too deep, which press against one of the field
windings.
They said they made tighter end windings so there is now about 1/8 inch
clearance to a mica insulator that is attach to the inside of the rear bell
housing.
I plan to take a set of pictures, showing the motor with this custom bell
housing. The motor mounting unit. How a blower motor is attach to this
motor and two types of motor adapter couplers.
It will also show three types of transmission coupling systems which use a
standard transmission or a 0 rpm lock up automatic and the equipment to do
this in exploded view.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: new DC series motor run-in?
> Hey Roland
>
> As self appointed Motor sheriff for the county of EVDL
> I just want to rule with an iron fist... I mean make
> sure EVeryone's getting the information straight.
> To be honest there are a lot of camps here concerning
> lets say "known facts" or "commonly held beliefs".
>
> Now I've been here almost 2 years 8^) (ya young pup
> still) but I've been here long enough to tell ya you
> couldn't lock 10 of us up to choose a car color let
> alone anything EV, LMAO! With that said just looking
> at "motors" there are a great many camps, inside each
> camp there are facts, sorta-facts, wishful thinking,
> common beliefs, and good old fashion bull crap, LMAO!
>
> You could lock up Wayland, Wilde, and Rudman and
> they'd kill each other before they agreed on motor
> stuff, I know I've worked on thier stuff, LMAO! Being
> I call them for advise it's a real crapshoot on views!
> I'm hoping to get with Otmar some time but he's the
> one who locked the door on us, LMAO! You got to watch
> those quiet shifty ones 8^)
>
> As self appointed motor sheriff I do my best to sort
> these camps and their ideals and to report back to the
> townfolk of EVDL. Being a hometown made Sheriff (I
> ain't been to any fancy pansy cop schools) there are
> things I'm just needing to know "now" like social
> skills 8^P
>
> Trying to sort through the camps is a tough job to be
> honest. I can tell you what a motor will do at 36
> volts in a lift but 348 volts is a whole nother
> critter (more like me on coffee). Throwing a 9" into
> one conversion makes for a purring pussycat while
> throwing into something that makes it work hard well
> it's gonna bark like a dog on a hot summers day 8^)
>
> As someone who's personaly built say 10,000 motors and
> supervised hell, a 100,000 over 25 years, I know
> formed coil DC motors. The problem sometimes is in
> how to write it so people understand it and to make
> sure I don't 1/2 inform someone or what ever. I offer
> all my posts as my opinion and sometimes it is just
> that, while others are hard learned lessons from
> motors kicking my ass accross the shop and then back
> again 8^o
>
> I also try to sort an individual issue vs. repeated or
> pattern issues as "nuetral" as I can. I have no stock
> in any of the brand names so I just call it like it
> is.
>
> I believe that your 9" motor falls under the
> individual heading. I get a call from time to time
> with minor concerns on both Warp and ADC's (I've
> caught a few mistakes myself) but in general if your
> product sucks you don't stay around very long not to
> mention us being such a tight word of mouth group.
>
> As far as having a high comm bar that's not something
> that goes away so unless you turned that comm it
> wasn't a high, or lifted bar. More than likely they
> forgot to seat it or they pulled the brushes to check
> for seat, and didn't re-stone, or something got jared
> or damaged during freight. If in fact you turned that
> comm, I conceed and stand corrected.
>
> On Richard Rau's Warp9 I also thought the holder gap
> was a tad wide, wider than their lift counterpart. I
> suspect they do this to make sure the brush maintains
> good flow through the holders. In low voltage useage
> the sheetmetal holders are known to warp inward and
> grab the brush if overheated. Richards motor purred
> like a kitten both ways so there was no issue I could
> see with said gap.
>
> Both V and U undercutter slots have pros and cons, I
> prefer the U type but then I hand dress them afterward
> to remove any missed mica or rough edges. More work
> but nice uniformly deep slots. The V slots make sure
> you get all the mica out on the top but as the comm
> wears you start running into thin mica walls which
> become thicker as the comm wears. Mica is very
> abrasive to brushes and will begin eating them fast.
>
> This leads me to brush grades. In general the softer
> the brush the faster it wears but the less the comm
> wears out. The harder the brush the more comm wear
> you'll get and well an arm is more expensive than a
> brush set 8^) There are better grades than others and
> like yours (wasn't it like 500.00 a set?) can get
> spendy for your average Joe so to speak. In general
> the H-100 grade has become almost the norm in DC
> motors in general, as it does have a nice range of
> charatristics and does well all and all.
>
> As to the brush chipping. Not sure what that's about
> honestly never seen it. I get my brushes bulk and
> they ain't all kit glooves as they throw em into the
> bag. I get a lot of blemish chipped edges and again
> wonder if this is not at least a possible cause.
>
> As a possible worst case uh oh I did test a motor one
> of my guys built and he hadn't sanded the comm after
> undercutting it. Well that sucker had some comm
> issues and probably had some brush chipping. Ohh ya I
> chomped on that guy for days 8^)
>
> As far as your GE motor goes I've been eagerly reading
> your updates and would love to see a pic or 10, lol.
> I do have to say though that they make my turn around
> look pretty good 8^P
>
> Anyway I hope I didn't affend just wanted to chime in
> and help out, and make sure someone didn't tear their
> new motor down and enamal the inside housing 8^)
>
> As far as coating it once the coils are installed I
> highly advise it as it not only locks EVerything down
> but also prevents rust build up and makes it more auto
> enviroment friendly as they drive in rain or what not.
>
> As to a standard pretest of a motor, check for shorts
> to steel, test all fastener connection (don't jab the
> screwdriver into the comm testing the brush screws).
> Test it on 12 volts (make sure it's blocked or you're
> holding it good). For 99.9% of the people they'll
> find it's ready to install, the other.1 will be really
> glad they caught that loose screw. Be cautioned
> though a lot of warranty claims turn out to be self
> inflicked. Like when you mount the motor make sure
> the bolts don't run into the motor fan 8^o stuff like
> that.
>
> Hope this helps
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate
> in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.
> http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 3/23/07, Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Is this thing on?
Roger.
It is now.
--
Martin Klingensmith
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 3/22/07, Patrick Andrews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I think everyone who is not weird should become a big brother or sister.
This is not some spam emait I just sent in my info to them in hopes to
inspire, educate, mentor someone who is less fortunite or lacking a role
model in their life. It is only one hour one day a week and you could
change
someones life. Everyone on this list has something to offer.
I don't care if anyone responds I just want to put it out there because it
is not something that you would think about unless someone told you about
it.
If you made it this far thanks for reading,
Patrick Andrews
_________________________________________________________________
Watch free concerts with Pink, Rod Stewart, Oasis and more. Visit MSN
Presents today.
http://music.msn.com/presents?icid=ncmsnpresentstagline&ocid=T002MSN03A07001
Who here is not weird?
Just a little humor, sorry.
In all honesty, I think there are many people here who would do well to be
able to mentor youths. Several already do.
--
Martin Klingensmith
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The poster means well, but the post is grossly off topic. Please do not
respond to this thread.
Thanks.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 22 Mar 2007 at 11:37, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I couldn't find a payload spec for the Escort, but I
> can't imagine it would be a half ton.
>
I'd hesitate with newer cars, but older ones tended to be designed with a
bit of margin when it comes to load. In most cases, the main concern with
exceeding GVWR is brakes and handling. These can often be trimmed up with
custom or factory high performance parts.
I'm a fairly cautious person, but I personally know Escort wagons that do
fine for tens of thousands of miles with half a ton of lead onboard. Honda
Civics, too. They need stiffer rear springs, however, and you want the best
brakes you can get.
I read once that the Renault 10s converted by Bob Aronson tended to
literally come apart at the seams after 20 years or so of use. But the car
was very light and small, and he was dropping in lead weighing something in
the >>one ton<< range.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 23 Mar 2007 at 9:59, Barry C. wrote:
> I have been searching through the archives and on the internet about
> using Prius battery packs instead of the traditional lead acid
> batteries. I have only seen one person so far that has done that. Is
> there a problem using that type of battery?
Prius battery packs work very well for Priuses (Prii?). However, their
energy storage capacity is too small for a real EV. They are made of cells
the size of those used in flashlights!
A few people have experimented with paralleling several packs to increase
capacity. This is fraught with problems, however, particularly in charging.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You're not kidding. Serious physical sideee effects due to lack of EVDL. I was
drinnking wway more coffee than I should, and I
still had the jitters. Talk about feeling disconnected :-0
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Lock Hughes
> Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 11:26 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: EV Withdrawal
>
>
> Man, I gave back the loaner scooter last week (mine has a cracked
> frame) and now the EVDL is down (getting a makeover?)
>
> This must be what withdrawal symptoms are like. ;-)
> Lock
> Toronto
> human-electric hybrid ped
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Not to worry. Many of us have melted terminals.
You can get another melted on for about $5-10 where
you purchased the battery.
The bigger question is why. In my case, I climbed a
hill and tossed it into 3rd. Big mistake. Should
keep RPMs high with an EV, and battery amps _down_.
I simply bypassed the bad battery to go home.
The biggest part is probably inhaling all of that
melted plastic around the terminal!
After the new post is on, the plastic that melted
around the edges will allow acid vapor to come up and
corrode the terminals a little faster, so be sure and
use plenty of vaseline to seal it, and inspect it
often; use baking soda to remove the corrosion that
ensues.
The only other likely culprit is that you didn't make
sure the terminals were tight, and they had lead
"creep"; that is, over time, the lead deforms. But in
7 mos., I'd doubt that.
Hope that helps and that you're on the road soon.
peace,
--- Deanne Mott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Went to water my batteries this morning, and found a
> real mess:
>
> http://www4.ncsu.edu/~dmott/MeltedBattery2.jpg
>
> http://www4.ncsu.edu/~dmott/MeltedBattery1.jpg
>
> Car details: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1020
>
> Batteries are Trojan T125's, I believe about 7-8
> months old. I've been
> driving it about 3 months. This battery actually
> reads 6.47V measured from
> the terminals of its adjacent batteries, but I know
> that's at best an
> intermittant situation. The car has been running
> fine, in fact I was just
> feeling like I was getting the hang of things. And
> a *serious* bummer to be
> off the road in prime convertible weather :-(
> Here's a start on the many
> questions I have:
>
> 1. How do I safely clean up this mess of lead?
> 2. Is this battery toast, or can/should it be
> repaired?
> 3. How could this have happened?
> 4. How can I prevent it from happening again?
> 5. Could any of the other batteries be damaged by
> this incident?
> 6. Could this have started a fire inside the
> battery box?
>
> thanks very much - De
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
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'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________
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in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't think you have to do anything special when you parallel Li
FeP cells, if you don't do anything bad to them beforehand.
I don't know if any type of Li-Ion cell will withstand a
prolonged dead short without damage. They have such a large amount of
stored energy for their mass that when you dump all the energy into
the cell itself during a short, the cell gets way too hot. This is a
direct consequence of the high specific energy of Li-Ion. Not much
you can do about it.
Bill Dube'
At 09:45 PM 3/22/2007, you wrote:
Tony,
What about making series strings and tying the strings together with a fuse
in each (plus a diode?)
If you use a second set of diodes for charging, then you have completely
isolated any problems in a shorted cell while you can still charge and
discharge through all strings.
The voltage difference between the charge and discharge points will tell you
if there is a string not playing nice, normally it should only be the
voltage drop of two diodes.
How much current does each string need to deliver?
Tesla Motors' Roadster has about 60 parallel strings if I take the nr of
cells (6000+) and divide that by the voltage that I expect they are running
(300+) so they probably have some 100 cells in series, though their BMS may
break it down in smaller sections.
Each string in the Roadster is probably capable of delivering around 10A.
(6000 x 3.4V x 10A = 200kW)
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tony Hwang
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 3:09 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: ARGGG, destroying expensive lifepo4 cells. :( Need a "button" fuse.
Hi all,
Does anyone know if there exists a "button" fuse, where each contact of the
fuse is opposite of each other? Sort of like a coin lithium cell? The reason
why I'm searching for them is to protect cells in parallel from a failed
cell.
So, I'm trying to see if lithium iron phosphate 18650 cells can be used in
parallel/series in a 4S5P pack.
I bought 21 cells from www.batteryspace.com, and fiddled with them. I
accidentally shorted two of them! They got hot and dumped full power for
about 10 seconds or so. Drats, one was ruined (fails in a shorted state),
the other, seemed ruined (very very low voltage, like .3 volts) but after a
day, it charged up fine. Cool, I thought. So at least I still have 20 "good"
cells. I mark the ruined but revived cell.
I wired up a 4S5P pack using lifepo4 cells from www.batteryspace.com. I put
it through a charge/discharge cycle on my charger, it works fine! Then I
charge it again, and notice it comes up as 9V only. ACK! So it turns out
that the "ruined but revived cell" failed short again, and it took out the
other 4 cells in parallel with it! Now I'm left with 15 cells, and 6 ruined
cells, at almost $7 apiece, this experiment is getting expensive. :(
I'm thinking it might be wise to wire up a fuse with each cell, but the
logistics of wiring that up seems daunting. Is there any fuse that is like a
button cell, that I can just put on the "+" end of each 18650? I've googled
and all I've found were SMT fuses, which are too small. I've thought of
maybe using glass fuses, but the glass would probably crack inside the pack.
- Tony
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I know, I actually got some work done today.
On 3/23/07, Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
You're not kidding. Serious physical sideee effects due to lack of EVDL. I was
drinnking wway more coffee than I should, and I
still had the jitters. Talk about feeling disconnected :-0
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Lock Hughes
> Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 11:26 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: EV Withdrawal
>
>
> Man, I gave back the loaner scooter last week (mine has a cracked
> frame) and now the EVDL is down (getting a makeover?)
>
> This must be what withdrawal symptoms are like. ;-)
> Lock
> Toronto
> human-electric hybrid ped
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--
www.electric-lemon.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, the BugE sits higher. I sat in the prototype a few weeks ago and it is
about as tall as a Corvette.
Dan
-------------------------------------
Thanks Dan. I did not realize they were so low to the ground. I wonder if
the BugE sits up higher?
bortel wrote:
> Kenneth,
>
> There are a few City El's in the U.S. and, I believe, in the EV album.
>
> There is a 'small' problem with using them in the U.S. in that they
> are VERY low to the ground. In Europe, where all the cars are smaller,
> they are marginal, but in the U.S., they are so low that most of the
> other cars can't see them. Even with the trusty bicycle flag they are
> just about invisible to many drivers. Just look at motorcycle/car
> accidents, motorcycles stand much taller than a City El, but get hit
> regularly because folks just don't see them.
>
> Dan
>
> ------------------
>
> It seems to me that the City El would be the perfect vehicle for me to
> complete my many errands around town. They seem to be priced fairly
> and there are always several for sale on eBay Europe.
>
> My question is, "Has anyone registered one of these in the US"? It
> seems to me that it would not be difficult to register as a motorcycle.
>
> Finally, how difficult would it be to import one into the States?
>
> Thanks in advance for your answers.
>
>
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 7:18 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: EV digest 6585
EV Digest 6585
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Better Data Logging Options?
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: 120 VDC to 120VAC Inverter Source?
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) EV list: Become a Big brother or sister
by "Patrick Andrews" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Was: 120 VDC to 120VAC Inverter Source; now 144->120?
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Quick PFC20 question
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Better Data Logging Options?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: City El
by Kenneth Dove <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EVLN(Foster City, CA Council to OK nEVs on city streets)
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Better Data Logging Options?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Re: new DC series motor run-in?
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Quick PFC20 question
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: wall to road efficiency
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: wall to road efficiency
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: We Blow Things Up, So You Don't Have To...2007
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: We Blow Things Up, So You Don't Have To...2007
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: FAST(er) NEV's - Update HB 1820 Washington State
by "John Foster" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) EBEAA Meeting - this Saturday, March 24, 2007 10-12 in Alameda
by Ed Thorpe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) EBEAA Meeting - this Saturday, March 24, 2007 10-12 in Alameda
by Ed Thorpe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: ARGGG, destroying expensive lifepo4 cells. :( Need a "button"
fuse.
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: NiMH Battery Packs in Parallel
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: 2007 Power of DC EV Racing Challenge
by "Mike Harvey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Rod, all
Chin up 'ol boy. There's more intrest than meets the
eye. I'd bet EVeryone here's felt like they were
typing to a wall at one time or another. As someone
who plopped into a lions den smelling of meat I've
found myself a hub as you've all circled around for a
piece of the kill, LMAO! Yeah EVeryone wants a piece
of Jim 8^o You know you don't see many motor or batt
guys here LMAO!
Right now I'm ass deep in Lasless' motors trying to
address every issue I can so he doesn't destroy them
or himself when he hits them with 1500 battery HP and
4 Zilla's. Now if that ain't intrest then I don't
know what'll cheer you up then 8^P Mike Willmon's
putting together a racer and from what I hear he's
gunning for Wayland (I might have to see if I can help
him out on that 8^o)
It may not be the good old days (yet) but there are
more racers out there than when I started! I missed
all those years, so I'm doing what I can to throw some
color onto the canvas. If I don't do at least that
well then I give up 8^P
I think James Sullivan post says a lot. I bet many
love to read it, but don't want to be the 234th person
to say "Yeah to go" so to speak. On the other hand it
is nice to get feedback so when you hear crickets
you're not thinking that EVeryone's muted you, LMAO.
As far as I'm concerned if you old timers fade from
view I loose 20 freaking years of experience! So you
just better suck that shit up right now. As someone
who's only fought the fight for 2 years and not 20 I
may be niave but I got passion to spare.
To be honest I'd like to see the west coast do an auto
/ scoter cross. Just somewhere people could drive /
race smaller stuff like gokarts or us having a little
mini-chopper showdown, 8^o Oh Yeah I got my eye on
you! I think more people would be involved if smaller
first time EV's can be brought and driven before
advancing to bigger and bad'er projects . I fit in
that catagory.
Anyway I just had to say to all you guys, Keep
shouting, I'm hearing ya and enjoying all the reports
and stories (you know me I like a colorful list 8^)
Even for me though it can be hard to reply without
sounding like Waylands groupie bitch, ya know?
Anyway I may bitch and moan but FWIW you're still my
candy 8^) BTW I missed out on Maniac Mazda so I don't
want to hear any whining!
Of course I could be another moron screaming in the
darkness but that's okay I kinda like it... and the
company's not half bad 8^)
Hope this helps
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
PS: Yeah the list is back!
____________________________________________________________________________________
No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go
with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey, I'm with james s... A lurker, but interested in what's going on. Please
don't think that there's a lack of interest just because we're unwilling to
clutter up the list with unqualified nattering. I for one will become more
active after I have learned more.
On 3/23/07, james s <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I for one love what you guys are doing and read the stories avidly and
forward these off to my family and friends, KEEP IT UP!!! I just
don't usually post as I have nothing to contribute and put my foot in
my mouth messing up the facts ;( I can't wait to eventually get out
to the West Coast for an EVent but have been very content to make the
East Coast EVents for now. It's been great to meet everyone who's
made it out to PofDC the last two years, Joliet last year and the past
BBB.
James Sullivan,
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
On 3/22/07, Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Mike, Thanks for responding. I have noticed over a period of time
that
> there does not seem to be a lot of responses to items of this nature. I
do
> not really know if people on the List do not really care about pressing
the
> envelope of EV performance or not.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "bortel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 11:26 PM
Subject: Re: City El
> Yes, the BugE sits higher. I sat in the prototype a few weeks ago and it
is
> about as tall as a Corvette.
>
> Dan
>
> -------------------------------------
>
> Thanks Dan. I did not realize they were so low to the ground. I wonder if
> the BugE sits up higher?
>
> bortel wrote:
> > Kenneth,
> >
> > There are a few City El's in the U.S. and, I believe, in the EV album.
> >
> > There is a 'small' problem with using them in the U.S. in that they
> > are VERY low to the ground. In Europe, where all the cars are smaller,
> > they are marginal, but in the U.S., they are so low that most of the
> > other cars can't see them. Even with the trusty bicycle flag they are
> > just about invisible to many drivers. Just look at motorcycle/car
> > accidents, motorcycles stand much taller than a City El, but get hit
> > regularly because folks just don't see them.
> >
> > Dan
> > Hell! Dan, people don't see TRAINS ether!Retired RR train driver here!18
wheelers and Greyhound buzzes!Ya hafta drive using the eyes in the back of
your head! The idiot drivers on the roads nowadaze! I rode bikes, an' Motor
bikes in Viet Nam and Taiwan for YEARS, no problems, but people didn't go as
fast, and car drivers Over There started on Honda 50's and were more bike
consious. Citi Els would be fun, but be SUPER careful!!!
Bob
> > ------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I could be wrong, but I believe these bills only raise the maximum speed the
vehicle can travel to 35mph, and leaves the maximum posted road at 35mph.
BTW, on my GEM that has the governor limit removed, I have on problem going
up fairly steep grade at 35mph.
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: John Foster [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 8:59 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: FAST(er) NEV's - Update HB 1820 Washington State
I agree Roger,
NEV's are not safe mingling in faster traffic.
They are niche vehicles, work fine in places like Vancouver where traffic
crawls, and collisions are more likely to be low speed.
Most existing NEVS have little headroom in power. Some you can add blowers
and be OK. But if dealers just start cranking them up willy-nilly with no
cooling upgrade there will be burnt motors and controllers littering the
downslopes of hills across the US.
And as Bob says, with some NEVs you can crank it to 35mph, but hit a hill
and they'll bog to 15 or less instantly. Wham! Their controllers haven't got
the current or the tiny pack is sagging.
Manufacturers may balk at the extra cost of upgrading across the board. But
if they do "higher speed models" just for the elevated states, there'll be
more confusion with cross-border re-sales.
- John
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Roger Stockton
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 1:56 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: FAST(er) NEV's - Update HB 1820 Washington State
Randy Burleson wrote:
> This reads as if it is reasonable to drive 35 on a
> road with posted 45mph limits. Is it?!?!
That will undoubtedly vary from one situation and individual to another.
My experience using a NEV on 50kph (~30mph) and 60kph (~40mph) roads was
that I was seldom, if ever, unable to match the flow of traffic despite
the NEV's lower speed limit. I used the car to commute to/from work on
surface streets, so reasonable traffic volume and plenty of lights.
Often people don't appreciate just how much slower than the posted
limits they really travel even if they do zip up to the limit (or above)
between lights, etc.
> I'm all for these maximizing the utility of NEVs. If
> this is a silly law that artificially limits NEVs
> speeds beyond one which they can easily attain, then
> I support changing the law.
It really has nothing to do with what the vehicles are capable of
attaining; the low maximum speed limit applied to NEVs is a *safety*
issue. NEVs are *governed* to their low max speed; it isn't that they
are inherently incapable of exceeding these speeds.
Remember that the NEV vehicle class was created to allow these
'car-like' vehicles to be operated on public roads without having to
undergo crash testing. The low speed limit, and restricting their use
to roads with lower speed limits was intended to limit the amount of
carnage that would result when a NEV collides with another vehicle or
stationary object.
Personally, I think is irresponsible to legislate the ability for these
vehicles to be operated at higher speeds or on higher speed roadways
(where they can and will be struck by 'normal' vehicles travelling at
higher speeds) without first evaluating the ability of the vehicles to
protect the occupants in this environment and perhaps legislating in
additional safety requirements or performance standards to ensure an
adequate level of protection is provided.
NEVs aren't required to be crash tested, but the Canadian government got
samples of a few and did just this, then presented the videos of the
tests. One very popular NEV when subjected to a frontal crash (at
either the standard 30mph or its 25mph max, I don't recall which),
disintegrated completely; there was no crush zone behaviour, the impact
would have been fatal for occupants. Another NEV subjected to the same
test did exhibit progressive crush zone behaviour, however the seats
ripped free of their mountings, again turning this into a fatal event.
A significant difference between these and a moped-like vehicle that can
exceed 25mph is that NEVs are designed to appear car-like, and consumers
may not appreciate the difference in safety standards applied to NEVs.
It is not at all unlikely for a consumer to strap an infant or child
seat into a NEV...
I think that more sensible legislation would be to continue to restrict
NEVs to roads with speed limits of 60kph/40mph maximum, but allow the
NEVs to travel at speeds up to 50kph/30mph instead of the present 25mph.
And, if the legislation doesn't presently allow for it, provide the
ability for NEVs to cross roads with posted speed limits in excess of
60kph/40mph. NEVs will never work for everyone, but they don't have to.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
