EV Digest 6982
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Wheel alignment Or How to significantly reduce rolling resistance!
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) CARB Massacres Continue
by Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) What kind of adaptor?
by "Bart Grabman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Hig perf lithium
by "Alan Brinkman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Motor weight
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Hig perf lithium
by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Wheel alignment Or How to significantly reduce rolling resistance!
by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: What kind of adaptor?
by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: What kind of adaptor?
by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: What kind of adaptor?
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: What kind of adaptor?
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Gel
by "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Odyne Corp. Signs Agreement to Provide Its Battery System Technology
for up to 2,000 Cars in Mexico City Fleet
by "Beth Silverman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Odyne Corp. Signs Agreement to Provide Its Battery System Technology
for up to 2,000 Cars in Mexico City Fleet
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Gel
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) might be the electric car of the future
by "Tom S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Max Speed of BLDC Motor
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Poles And Phases
by "Rob Hogenmiller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Motor weight
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: NiMH pack strategy
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Max Speed of BLDC Motor
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Invention to cool the inside of a car.
by "Rob Hogenmiller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: DC Circuit breaker
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Hybrid pack
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Honda Insight
by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) victor Tikhonov
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Fiero conversions..?
by "Adrian DeLeon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Honda Insight
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) RE: victor Tikhonov
by "Britt MSN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: Motor weight
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Joseph T. wrote:
Yes, batteries are not perfect. Pretty much everything you're saying
is correct, except that flooded batteries do not last a long time.
Flooded 6 volt batteries do last a very long time, and do have very
bad performance.
To be more precise, flooded batteries *can* be built to last a long time
-- golf cart and forklift batteries, for example. However, most flooded
batteries are built to be cheap, and so do *not* last a long time.
Of course, you can murder any battery early from abuse. My first set of
6v golf cart batteries only lasted 6 months. I killed them from
excessive load current, too deeply discharging them, and improper
charging. My second set lasted 2 years, due to better care. My third set
lasted 7 years. :-)
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
More firing at CARB.
http://www.plugsandcars.blogspot.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I got a kit off eBay a little while ago that came with an adaptor plate - it
said it was for a Swift, Metro, or Firefly, but I have a VW, and it clearly
won't fit that. Since I don't have any of the other cars, though, I don't
know how I'm supposed to sell it.
Any ideas on what it is? Photo at
http://www.freewebs.com/grabman/car/plate.jpg
_________________________________________________________________
Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!
http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_hotmailtextlink2
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dan,
I just bought a DeWalt DC9360 battery pack off of E-bay for around $100.
It is for the new 36 volt DeWalt line of battery powered hand tools. It
contains 10 of the A123 cells, and some type of battery management
system. In addition to the heavy series connections between the 10
cells, there are smaller connections to a "controller or battery
management module" in the battery pack. I hope to pick up a charger on
E-bay, and maybe a drill or something to use while I complete the
motorcycle I am building. There are people around who have built
electric bicycles using 2, 4 or 6 of the DeWalt batteries.
I hope to find someone who has researched the battery controller and can
tell me what it will do. I think between the charger and the battery
module, that they likely have battery management under control. I think
the battery also uses the controller to run certain tools at certain
speeds depending upon the setting of the speed trigger on the tool. My
question is, if the control module is a power module, can it be used in
parallel with many other fully charged batteries to power a 24 volt
series motor to power a motorcycle at slower speeds?
Alan Brinkman
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dan Frederiksen
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 2:57 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Hig perf lithium
I'm sorry if this has been covered but has anyone been able to buy some
of the newer high performance lithiums like the A123?
if so from where and for how much
although it's speculation, some numbers around 20-40k$ for the cells in
the tesla pack have been floating around and if real that would mean
that a 10-15kWh pack might be doable for a lot of people (5-10k$). it
might not be longer range than lead acid but they would weigh a lot less
and more importantly last a lot longer
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This 1/2" thick band of iron
> only needs to be as
> long as the pole pieces themselves; but for easy
> construction they
> usually use a much longer iron tube, to reach all
> the way to the end bells.
>
> Note: If you are going to use a PWM controller with
> a DC motor, then you
> have to laminate the field pole pieces anyway,
> because the controller is
> applying AC to the field (the controller is using
> the field windings as
> its inductor).
Hey Lee, Jeff, all
There are actually a few motors that use solid pole
shoes. Most are small low voltage pump motors, but
Yale has some that go into 7.5" diameter 80 lbs. 36
volt drive motors. I'm sure it was done to lower the
cost of the motor but goes against everything I was
taught. Anyway I've often wondered how this effects
that motor compared to if it were to have been built
with laminated shoes.
On another note, I'm wondering if you could tell me
whether laminating the whole housing shell (vs it
being solid) would offer better properties or in fact
worsen them in a DC motor? Just another crazy what if
idea floating around the space between my ears 8^)
Thirdly, I'm shortening a ADC9 for a guy in Calif.
and will be a lot like Jay Donnaways motor. In
trimming down the ends I found this particular ADC9
housing has at least a .200 difference between the
thick and thin areas of the housing! It might
actually be closer to a full 1/4" (by far the worst
I've seen). Anyway, I'm wondering, would this cause a
field imbalance and if so by what degree?
Lastly, The small 6.7" GE motors have a much thinner
housing than their Prestolite or ADC's compatable
direct replacement motors which usually amounts to a
10 lbs difference between them, much in housing weight
reducing them from 55/60 lbs to 45ish. Being there
are numerous versions and they appear to work as well,
are the ADC's over applying the meat or is GE
undersizing to keep costs down. I know this would
have to be a guess but would love your input.
Anyway I just thought I'd pop in and say hi and throw
some questions into the pot 8^)
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play
Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
http://sims.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Tesla Roadster battery pack should cost about 20k.
Let me explain myself.
I once found some great battey cost numbers somewhere for different
batteries. And the cost of the lithium-ion added up to 20k as the
estimates say. Also, Martin Ebeherd (CEO of Tesla Motors) has said it
himself that the battery pack is 1/3 the COST of the car. Now you can
interpret whether the "cost" means retail price or the cost to make
the car. I think the "cost" means the price to make the car, not the
retail price. So if a 20k battery pack is 1/3 of the car's cost, then
that would mean that the car costs 60k to manufacture.
Martin has also said that they aim to sell about 1000 Tesla Roadsters
within about a year. (Therefore I am assuming that if they sell 1000
cars, that means they are rather doing well financially for the
situation.) So 40k profit (100k selling price minus 60k manufacturing
price) per car, times 1000 is 40 million dollars. I know that 40
million dollars does not mean 40 million dollars in total profit
because that does not include the cost of r&d but 40 million bucks of
"profit" comes kind of close to all the money that has been invested.
So yes, 20k a pack sounds financially sound.
Of course, I have no connections with Tesla Motors and I am no
financial expert.
On 7/2/07, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'm sorry if this has been covered but has anyone been able to buy some
of the newer high performance lithiums like the A123?
if so from where and for how much
although it's speculation, some numbers around 20-40k$ for the cells in
the tesla pack have been floating around and if real that would mean
that a 10-15kWh pack might be doable for a lot of people (5-10k$). it
might not be longer range than lead acid but they would weigh a lot less
and more importantly last a lot longer
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What did you do for your flooded batteries to last 7 years!?!
On 7/2/07, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Joseph T. wrote:
> Yes, batteries are not perfect. Pretty much everything you're saying
> is correct, except that flooded batteries do not last a long time.
> Flooded 6 volt batteries do last a very long time, and do have very
> bad performance.
To be more precise, flooded batteries *can* be built to last a long time
-- golf cart and forklift batteries, for example. However, most flooded
batteries are built to be cheap, and so do *not* last a long time.
Of course, you can murder any battery early from abuse. My first set of
6v golf cart batteries only lasted 6 months. I killed them from
excessive load current, too deeply discharging them, and improper
charging. My second set lasted 2 years, due to better care. My third set
lasted 7 years. :-)
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It looks like if you were to mount it to a bell housing the input
shaft wouldn't be in the center. (which is bad) I have never seen a
bell housing in my life however, besides from alot of picture, so I
can't be sure.
On 7/2/07, Bart Grabman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I got a kit off eBay a little while ago that came with an adaptor plate - it
said it was for a Swift, Metro, or Firefly, but I have a VW, and it clearly
won't fit that. Since I don't have any of the other cars, though, I don't
know how I'm supposed to sell it.
Any ideas on what it is? Photo at
http://www.freewebs.com/grabman/car/plate.jpg
_________________________________________________________________
Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!
http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_hotmailtextlink2
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
And no, I have no idea what it is. I haven't ever seen an adaptor like
that. But then again I've never seen that many adaptors. Only photos.
On 7/2/07, Joseph T. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
It looks like if you were to mount it to a bell housing the input
shaft wouldn't be in the center. (which is bad) I have never seen a
bell housing in my life however, besides from alot of picture, so I
can't be sure.
On 7/2/07, Bart Grabman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I got a kit off eBay a little while ago that came with an adaptor plate - it
> said it was for a Swift, Metro, or Firefly, but I have a VW, and it clearly
> won't fit that. Since I don't have any of the other cars, though, I don't
> know how I'm supposed to sell it.
>
> Any ideas on what it is? Photo at
> http://www.freewebs.com/grabman/car/plate.jpg
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!
> http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_hotmailtextlink2
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
you might try cloud EV as they used to do lots of
metros and might take it off yur hands. BTW I have a
olderporsch/VW adaptor and clutch on a GE? motor maybe
you could use it. if you are interested let me know
off list and we can swap measurements and photos to
see if it will work... any one else that is doing a
VWE?porsch conversion might be interested can feel
free to contact me
--- Bart Grabman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I got a kit off eBay a little while ago that came
> with an adaptor plate - it
> said it was for a Swift, Metro, or Firefly, but I
> have a VW, and it clearly
> won't fit that. Since I don't have any of the other
> cars, though, I don't
> know how I'm supposed to sell it.
>
> Any ideas on what it is? Photo at
> http://www.freewebs.com/grabman/car/plate.jpg
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play
> Chicktionary!
>
http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_hotmailtextlink2
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the added security of spyware
protection.
http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/norton/index.php
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Okay, you have an adapter for a Geo Metro/Suzuki Swift/Ponitiac
Firefly. Why can't you sell it? It looks a lot like the one
Canadian Electric sells at:
http://www.canev.com/KitsComp/Components/Adapter%20page.htm
so I would say the description that came with the kit was probably
right. Just list it on the EV Tradin' Post and watch it sell.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Are gel batteries better than deep cycle..??
Do the weight less and have more power??
Are they not so good in the cold climate??
I guess Mercedes uses them..
Thanks Mitchell
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/06/odyne-to-provid.html
says
"The converted Tsurus use a battery system comprising 15 12-volt AGM lead-acid
batteries from Enersys, divided into a pack of 7 batteries under the hood and a
pack of 8 in the trunk. The electric Tsuru has a range 75-105 km (47-65 miles)
and a top speed of 100 kph (62 mph)."
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Major [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Mon 7/2/2007 11:25 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Odyne Corp. Signs Agreement to Provide Its Battery System
Technology for up to 2,000 Cars in Mexico City Fleet
Hi Beth,
So Odyne will supply battery management and chargers.
Azure the propulsion systems. Can you tell us what
the batteries will be?
Jeff
--- Beth Silverman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
http://www.electricdrive.org/index.php?tg=entry&idx=more&article=1528&id
> g=1
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Got a little couch potato?
Check out fun summer activities for kids.
http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Enersys. Same as in White Zombie.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Major" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 11:25 AM
Subject: Re: Odyne Corp. Signs Agreement to Provide Its Battery System
Technology for up to 2,000 Cars in Mexico City Fleet
Hi Beth,
So Odyne will supply battery management and chargers.
Azure the propulsion systems. Can you tell us what
the batteries will be?
Jeff
--- Beth Silverman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
http://www.electricdrive.org/index.php?tg=entry&idx=more&article=1528&id
g=1
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Are gel batteries better than deep cycle..??
Depends on how you define "better".
> Do the weight less and have more power??
Compared to what?
For a given capacity Gels typically weigh a bit more than floodeds or a
lot more than floodeds, depends on how they are made.
For a given capacity Gels usually have less power than floodeds and lots
less power than AGMs
> Are they not so good in the cold climate??
A tiny bit less good than Floodeds
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Everyone,
You can see our car at electricevette.com, or on youtube at
electricevette. If you e-mail us please be patient, as we get a lot of
e-mail, and there are only two of us to respond. Thanks enjoy.
Tom and Yvette
________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
....
inverter phase short demagnetized it. Just a guess.
If you have the motor, try running an Eg test.
The best I can test so far is by spinning the motor up
and comparing the back EMF to what I expect to be
there - all phases appear even, and the max speed appears
to match the applied voltage.... the voltage vs RPM
relationship appears to make sense to me. Is this
an 'ok' test?
I have heard that the thing on this motor that dies at
higher speed (6000 RPM or higher) is the magnet running
the hall-effect position sensor. It looks like at least
one of those failed during this motor's life - the
housing that holds the hall-effect devices are covered
in marks that look like a magnet came apart. Does this
seem reasonable?
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What does pole and phases mean?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I stand corrected.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rob&Amy Smith wrote:
Can anyone give me a synopsis of the current thinking on NiMH packs?
What I have gathered from reading the list for a while now (are these
true statements?):
1. Charging or discharging multiple cells in parallel is generally
a bad idea.
2. Charging or discharging long strings quickly gets cells out of
balance.
3. Finishing voltage is not a good indicator of charge complete.
4. Watching for -dv/dt turn is better indicator
5. Monitoring for cell temp rise can also be a good indicator of
charge complete
6. Previous cycle charge/discharge info is best indicator.
Yes; I'd say that these are mostly true, if you have no battery
management system. They more-or-less apply to any chemistry; not just nimh.
The fundamental problem is that all cells are not identical. They differ
slightly even when new, and become even more different as they age. So,
you can't just connect lots of cells in series or parallel. Temperature
rise and dv/dt are after-the-fact methods of detecting problems (hitting
the battery until it says, "Ouch"!)
So, lets say I want to build a ~200V/40Ah pack out of 4 strings of
10Ah cells (not full EV size I realize)
Let's think of this by way of an analogy. Suppose you want to pick up
your car with a chain. What kind of chain should you use, and how should
it be set up so you have a low chance of it breaking?
The simplest strategy is to get a single short chain that is strong
enough to do the job. The fewer the links, the less chance for failures.
The weakest link determines the overall strength. If one link fails,
down comes your car! So, you might use a 4000 lbs test chain to pick up
a 2000 lbs car.
What if you can't get that strong a chain? (That's the situation we face
with the higher-tech batteries; they aren't available in large sizes).
Can you use two or more chains "in parallel" to carry the load? Yes...
if you're careful and implement some kind of load-sharing setup.
If you parallel several chains, putting the end links all on the same
hook, they will *not* share the load equally. One chain will be tight,
and carry the whole load by itself. Chains don't stretch; its weakest
link sets the limit. When it breaks, the second-longest chain gets all
the load; when it breaks, the third one gets it all, etc. So N chains in
parallel like this are barely any stronger than just one of them. Ten
1000 lbs chains can still only safely hold 1000 lbs.
(This is what you get when you connect lots of cells in parallel. There
is no way to know how much current any of them carries. With lead-acid,
internal resistance rises as they discharge; this added resistance tends
to make them all reach dead at the same time. But most other chemistries
do not change their internal resistance until they are very dead, when
there is risk of damaging them.)
You need to rig up some method so each chain gets and equal share of the
load. For instance, a triangular plate with the load connected to one
corner, and two chains connected to the other two corners. Done right,
each chain carries exactly half the load. Now two 1000 lbs chains can
hold 2000 lbs.
(This is what is needed for parallel groups of cells or batteries.
Insert some resistance, diodes, switches, or other devices in series
with each parallel group to define or control the current that each
handles. Such devices are called "ballast" resistors, because they act
like the ballast in a ship, to keep it upright despite off-axis loading
or disturbances.)
Next question: How long should each chain be? The more links in a chain,
the lower its reliability; the greater the chance that there may be a
weak or damaged link. When you need a very large number of links, is it
better to have a few very long chains, only connected at their ends? Or
break them up into many short chains, which are paralleled to make
many-stranded short chains; then treat these as if they are a single
strong chain, and link them together?
Chains usually follow the former strategy; long many-link chains,
paralleled only at the ends. Ropes take the opposite strategy; very
large numbers of very small fibers, all twisted or braided together to
act as a single much stronger one. Both strategies work if you get the
details right.
With batteries, this means you can put large numbers of cells in
parallel (with suitable ballasting to make them share the load). Then
treat these as if they are a single large cell, and connect them in
series. But if you do, you wind up with one ballast resistor or device
for every single cell.
Or, you can wire the cells in long series strings, and only parallel
them at the ends (again, with some kind of ballast resistor or device).
Now you only need one ballast device per chain, not per cell -- much
simpler and cheaper. However, a failure of any cell in the chain now
takes out the entire chain. Also, whatever device switches off that
chain will have to be able to handle the full current and full voltage
of the string. Not many switches, but each one is expensive.
The most successful strategy is likely to be something in between these
extremes. Group the cells into small series strings (say, 12v worth of
cells). Parallel these groups with ballast resistors, commoning diodes,
switches, etc. to form high amphour modules. Connect these modules in
series.
For charging... I really like the AGM balance idea of just running
multiple small independent isolated chargers to make sure each battery
is balanced. This gets tricky here though, as we have potentially ~667
cells. The RC guys seem to pretty routinely fast charge 7.2-9.6V
strings with good results.
Yes, but they have far fewer cells to worry about.
Maybe some simple bimetal switches, simple thermistor/comparator
circuits to provide digital feedback rather than analog.
Possible; but you have to test, test, and keep testing to be sure you
aren't kidding yourself. You need to actually think about the failure
modes, and create them to see how your system *actually* reacts.
For discharging, I'm less sure.
This is what you use the above-mentioned ballast resistors, diodes, or
switches for.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You must be talking about the encoder magnet. I use
'green magnetic paper' to check encoder magnets. I'll
try and get more information on this material, it
basically shows where the north-south transition
points are on a magnet. I would guess that one of the
hall sensors are bad. If you can apply 5 or 12Vdc to
the hall board, put a scope on each hall output and
turn the motor to make sure you are getting a square
wave signal. I've had halls fail on several motors
from coming in contact with the encoder magnet or just
failing for no apparent reason in life test
(temp-humidity testing). If a hall is bad the control
won't know how to commutate (almost like a bad brush
in a DC motor!). If you are getting good back EMF
while turning the motor it sounds like the
encoder/halls are the problem.
--- Dale Ulan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ....
> inverter phase short demagnetized it. Just a guess.
>
> If you have the motor, try running an Eg test.
>
>
> The best I can test so far is by spinning the motor
> up
> and comparing the back EMF to what I expect to be
> there - all phases appear even, and the max speed
> appears
> to match the applied voltage.... the voltage vs RPM
> relationship appears to make sense to me. Is this
> an 'ok' test?
>
> I have heard that the thing on this motor that dies
> at
> higher speed (6000 RPM or higher) is the magnet
> running
> the hall-effect position sensor. It looks like at
> least
> one of those failed during this motor's life - the
> housing that holds the hall-effect devices are
> covered
> in marks that look like a magnet came apart. Does
> this
> seem reasonable?
>
> -Dale
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Instead of blowing the air out to cool the car, is there a way to change
that into a stored energy or power something else?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 9:30 AM
Subject: Re: Invention to cool the inside of a car.
I was considering doing a similar state change heater. I was thinking of
making a steel box full of tin (or solder), with a heating element in it.
Put it in a high temp insulated box. Plug in the heating element while
parked until the tin melts. Then blow air across it for heat. I'm not
sure if 50 lbs of tin going through a liquid to solid state change can
supply more energy than an additional 50 lbs of battery though.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jay Caplan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Michael Barkley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: Invention to cool the inside of a car.
I use the same type of setup in my Renault LeCar
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/727 for the second summer now.
There is a chest freezer in the garage located next to the passenger door
of
the car. It holds 18 HDPE jugs, each containing 10 lb of ice.
http://tinyurl.com/mpfc7 I load 9 of these into the ice box in the car
(there is a small air gap between each jug), and then leave the garage
with
the 12VDC 14 inch radiator fan that is bolted to the side of the box
blowing
air towards the driver's seat. The fan has a 10 amp PWM speed control to
adjust the air delivery. The 90 lb of ice cools the car well for up to 4
hours. I use it daily in July and August and into September. It reduces
the
interior temp by
15 degrees and removes excess humidity. It stays very comfortable.
The ice box has a mesh side to let air blow through and solid bottom to
collect condensation with a drain. http://tinyurl.com/pfr68 #EF6421
On return to the garage, the 9 melted jugs are returned to the freezer,
they
freeze overnight. The load or unload of jugs takes just 2 minutes.
One advantage of ice is that you can leave the fan blowing while in a
store
and keep the car cool for groceries or leaving pets inside.
I remove the ice box from the car in the fall and reinstall the little
heater that was there for winter use.
I got the idea from some very small units http://tinyurl.com/jdmed that
use
crushed ice and blow air over it or use cold water for a transfer medium
to a fan blowing over a wick. I chose the
air transfer to the jugs and a big radiator fan because I knew it needed
at
least 80 lb ice to deliver the cooling required and good air flow to
transfer the heat, and didn't want to handle all that melted water and
ice
cubes, too difficult and expensive. The narrow jugs work fine and contain
the water, reused easily. I have 18 jugs instead of 9 so that if I use
the
car in the daytime, recharge it and then again at night, I will have
fresh
ice each time.
JLC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Barkley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 4:03 PM
Subject: Was: Invention to cool the inside of a car.
I'm cooling the inside of my car, with a cooler packed
with BLUEICE packs. It has a squirrel cage fan
mounted on the bottom side of the cooler, plugs into
the cigarette lighter or the solar panel on the dash
of the car. The air is pulled in from a small hole in
the top of the cooler, thru the various BlueICE packs,
and out the bottom side. This has kept the car
comfortable in Texas/Oklahoma weather so far. Cost
less than $20 bucks to build, it is small enough to
sit in the passenger seat of the car and blow air over
to the driver (ME). I have frozen packs at work, and
home, and just switch them out as needed during
commutes from work and home.
--- GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> My ideas invention cooling tube design which uses
> the flowing air over
> a vehicle to power a cooling tube whic cools the
> inside of a car.
>
>
>
> www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about
> hurricanes, globalwarming
> and the melting poles.
>
> www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake
> images.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Lee, your answer and Roland's contradict each other and is
confusing me. So it is okay to connect 2 or more of these lower rated
breakers in series? Do I need to tap in between the the high voltage
battery string or it doesnt matter? Thanks
Joseph.
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Can I put two or three of the lower voltage ones in series to get the
>>> same effect?
>
> High voltage DC circuit breakers, switches, and contactors are almost
> always made by putting enough lower-voltage contacts in series. For
> example, if one switch contact is rated at 100v, then 2 in series are
> good for 200v, 3 in series are 300v, etc. If it's a circuit breaker,
> you'll see 2 or 3 poles all wired in series, and tripped by a common
> handle or other mechanical connection between them.
>
> Roland is right that completely independent breakers with a commoning
> bar between them don't always open at exactly the same time. However,
> the time difference between when one trips and the connected ones trip
> is very short; a small fraction of a second. The contacts are built to
> survive that short period of arcing.
>
> Don't try putting fuses in series to increase their voltage rating,
> though. It won't work!
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
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--- Begin Message ---
I know it's off topic, but I had a question about the Honda Insight.
I was wondering whether the Honda Insight is reliable. (I've heard
about battery problems.) I know that there is 100,000 mile warranty on
the Insight. If you buy this car from a person, can you go to the
dealership in case of battery failure and they'll fix it for free?
Does Honda have a stockpile of Insight parts, or are replacement parts
pricey and expensive.
These same questions I have about the 1st gen Honda Civic Hybrid too.
Any experience with either cars???
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Need email for Victor. [EMAIL PROTECTED] this is no good. Lawrence
Rhodes......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A guy in town has been driving a Fiero conversion for quite a while. 9"
ADC, Curtis 1231, and 10x 12V marine batteries (Interstate?). Very nice
installation and super clean setup/wiring. He mentioned a 50 mile range,
which I highly doubt with the hills here. But I have no idea where/how he
drives it. I've never seen it on the road.
He also mentioned that it's a rather heavy car to convert. But he's in the
process of converting another for an out-of-town friend.
Regarding your commute - 60 miles round trip with hills! Yikes!!! With the
moderate hills here, the 50-75A it takes to cruise at 40MPH soon becomes
150-200A to maintain 40MPH. Acceleration on those hills? Fugghedaboudit.
Adrian
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Joseph and All,
Joseph T. wrote:
I know it's off topic, but I had a question about the Honda Insight.
Yeah, it is a bit off topic, but it 'is' about batteries, so maybe we
can squeeze it in here for a quick answer.
I was wondering whether the Honda Insight is reliable. (I've heard
about battery problems.) I know that there is 100,000 mile warranty on
the Insight. If you buy this car from a person, can you go to the
dealership in case of battery failure and they'll fix it for free?
This isn't set in stone, but in general, only the first issue 2000 model
had battery pack problems, and only a small percentage did. My beloved
Insight was one of them, though it took six long years to manifest
itself. The Insight's IMA system that included the NiMH battery pack was
factory warranted for 8 years or 80,000 miles, not 100,000 miles. Prius,
yes, 100,000 miles from the get-go, but not Honda...at least, not right
away. Because the Insight was being developed in the late 90's, the
first NiMH batteries were designed early on as well...these batteries
were what came in the 2000 model. Honda stepped up and replaced my
battery pack with a new pack made from the improved 2nd generation NiMH
cells that have a very good record of reliability. They also swapped out
the IMA controller and BMS for newly designed ones at the same
time...all for free. On top of that, last year Honda announced that all
of the existing 8 year, 80,000 mile pack warranties were being extended
to 10 year, 100,000 mile warranties...cool! Everyone I know that has a
2001 or later Insight, has not had any battery pack issues.
Does Honda have a stockpile of Insight parts, or are replacement parts
pricey and expensive.
Don't know. My car hasn't needed a single part replaced in 7 years of
driving. It's extremely reliable (exception to the above mentioned
warranty issue). Honda has a good reputation on its parts situation from
all accounts.
OK, back to real EVs.....
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 10:05 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: victor Tikhonov
Need email for Victor. [EMAIL PROTECTED] this is no good. Lawrence
Rhodes......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim Husted wrote:
There are actually a few motors that use solid pole shoes... I've
often wondered how this effects that motor compared to if it were to
have been built with laminated shoes.
Solid pole shoes increase the magnetic losses (eddy currents and
hysteresis). These don't matter too much if the field current is pure DC
(such as for a motor running on a contactor controller). But they are a
problem if you use a PWM controller that tries to use the field winding
as its inductor.
The magnetic field produced by the armature also dithers back and forth
a bit as the brush switches from commutator bar to bar. This creates
some magnetic losses at the very tips of the pole pieces close to the
armature.
would laminating the whole housing shell (vs it being solid) offer
better properties or in fact worsen them in a DC motor?
It would not worsen performance; it would in fact help it if you were
using the motor with a PWM controller. But the improvement isn't worth
the cost (at least to the guys making the motor :-)
In trimming down the ends I found this particular ADC9 housing has
at least a .200 difference between the thick and thin areas of the
housing! ... would this cause a field imbalance and if so by what
degree?
Yes, it would unbalance the field, and try to pull the armature off to
one side. How strong this force is depends on the field current. The
greater the current, the worse the problem.
The lack of iron on one side could also result in the iron on that side
saturating earlier (at a lower current). If this happens, the side pull
could become *really* large!
Lastly, The small 6.7" GE motors have a much thinner housing than
their Prestolite or ADC's compatable direct replacement motors which
usually amounts to a 10 lbs difference between them
Again, that means it would saturate at a lower current. I've actually
seen some motors that had an *extra* band of iron added around the
middle, right over the field pole pieces.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
