EV Digest 7024
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Amost Live from PIR, 1st Update
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Amost Live from PIR, 1st Update
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) EV parts
by "Michael Mohlere" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Electric Evette
by "Tom S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Amost Live from PIR, 1st Update
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) Re: One question of many
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: One question of many
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) FuelVapor Technologies - fuel efficient vehicle automobile high mileage
ale'
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: 80 % discharge voltage
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Optimum Brush Advance for Acceleration & top end
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Home Power Zeke
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Optimum Brush Advance for Acceleration & top end
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Tropica Reducer
by Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Tropica Reducer
by Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Amost Live from PIR, 1st Update
by "james s" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Electric Evette
by "TrotFox Greyfoot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: 80 % discharge voltage
by Jerry Wagner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Electric Evette
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Another, fairer comparison
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Amost Live from PIR, 1st Update
by "Loni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Another, fairer comparison
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: FuelVapor Technologies - fuel efficient vehicle automobile high
mileage ale'
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Short and Cheap :was Short range bat. pack
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Tesla, 3-year-cycle?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
AWESOME NEWS !
I wish I could be there... -*sob*-....
pls.. upload videos to Youtube as soon as possible..
-Jukka
Roderick Wilde kirjoitti:
I just talked to John at the PIR track. They were having a minor heating
issue with the batteries. They also left their 12 volt auxiliary battery
on while they were charging and when they made their third run of the
night the voltage was not enough to hold in their contactor. It dropped
out three times on the run. There is so much press there it is like
Hollywood Paparazzi. Even with power dropping off three times during the
run they were able to pull off an 11.974 run at 105.68 mph and totally
wasted the hot Mustang in the other lane that had done an awesome fear
invoking burnoff. Alas the White Zombie just waltzed away under partial
power. Killacycle's second run wowed the crowd with a blistering 8.7
second 152 mph run. Spectators and the press are finally starting to
envision the true power and the future of EVs. It is definitely a
special night for electric vehicles!
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
DUDE!! I WAS THERE. Not to rub it it, but it was an awsome spectacle. Being
this was my first EVer drag race EVent I must say EVen the fast gassers barely
turned my head away from all the dedicated Amp heads loitering around.
Kiilcycle, awesome!!! Thats all I can say. I couldn't get a pic of the
launch because the 500ms delay on my camera was killing me. I tried leading
Scotty more and more each time and after 4 tries I still failed to get him in
the frame; not EVen the back tire :-(
White Zombie with the Lithium pack, was Awesome!!! On the last run Tim pulled
an 11.5 something (I'll let John fill in the details in his part 2 ( and now
Part 3) of the White Zombie commentary) But holy sh%$, the crowd goes wild,
there's a fire on the Zombie, EVeryone's chattering ""The Zombie is on fire".
Looking down the track wondering what the track officials are doing to help out
at the end of the track. John's on his cell phone, hands up in the air saying
"Awe its alright, Tim just pulled the Oh Sh%$ handle". Apparently the
mechanical linkage on the accelerator pedal got stuck down and jamming on the
the brakes and locking up the front tires only slowed the RPM's down from 6600
to 6000. Front tires sliding and no slowing down the OH SH%$ bar comes out and
a large flash and smoke resembling a motor zorching gets the crowds attention.
Tim drives it back to the pits however like nothing is wrong. Except that
about half an inch of rubber from one side of each of
the front tires is missing with a nice flat spot about twice the size of my
hand is readily noticable. 550 feet of dragging the front brakes at 1000
battery amps might tend to do that to front tires :-O The track guys said
they've never seen a skid mark that long :-O
I'd concur with the obsceneties Wildman alluded to that most likely were
relayed by John Wayland. After losing my drag racing virginity by seeing a
race for the first time, I was also honored by being given a ride to my hotel
across the river by none other that John Wayland himself (in the White Zombie).
Luckily there is a seatbelt in the passenger seat. If John says the lithium
pack is obscene, believe him!!! (I have no doubt I'd have said that with the
Lead Acid pack as well though) With the full 2000 motor amps flowing through
those amazing Siamese 8's the car was severely traction limited. Ass end
swinging all over creation looking for a sticky spot to grab onto; all the
while flat spots in the front tires just about rattling my teeth out. I did
notice though under hard acceleration when the weight was lifted slightly off
the front tires it was a smooth, plain old kick in the ass. Talk about
launching... I can't imagine also wearing a helmet. It must be all that
TIm can do to keep the blood flowing to his eyeballs.
I know this is not a lot of hard core data, but its 2am here and I gotta get
some sleep. John is probably just now making it home trying to figure out
where to get new front tires tomorrow. So chew on this first thing when you
wake up and hopefully after the show John will give you the full skinny.
Oh yeah, and Jim Husted finished up that pound of coffe I sent him and called
me yesterday to say my motors for the Pinto were done and that he'd be bringing
them to the races and show tomorrow. Well I got to see them, and fondle them a
little as Jim was showing them off from the back of his truck. I must say that
Jim must be bucking for the magazines now with this job. And with the work I
just saw he's going to get it. While he wasn't looking I saw the camera crews
filming the motors with Hi-Torque plastered all over them. The Flame Job
coming out of the Pinto emblem (really a Mustang Emblem on steroids) is superb.
Its going to make a lot of nice photo shoots. But hey I just want to get them
in the Pinto and get this thing on the track pulling some times. Jim, you can
have your couple days to say farewell, but once I hitch those bad horses up,
it'll be all over with but the crying. But hey take this to heart, John and
Tim couldn't bur your babies tonight, EVen wit
h lithium ion batteries :-) and thats a good thing, I guess.
Later,
Mike,
In Jantzen Beach outside of Portland, OR.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jukka Järvinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Saturday, July 14, 2007 12:13 am
Subject: Re: Amost Live from PIR, 1st Update
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> AWESOME NEWS !
>
> I wish I could be there... -*sob*-....
>
> pls.. upload videos to Youtube as soon as possible..
>
>
> -Jukka
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I received the information below from the fellow that is selling the 75
honda civic EV on the tradin post. Apparently he has some other items to
sell that are not listed (see below). I don't know if this is a good deal
or not - could be he would come down on the price or sell some components
separately. Figured it was worth pushing out to the list.
Mike
From: Jens Calley ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Sent: Fri 7/13/07 1:16 PM
To: Michael Mohlere ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
I have 2 entire kits Advanced DC motor, raptor 600 controller, DC-DC con,
adaptor plate, most cablels, most gauges, E-meter and battery hold downs. $
6000. I need to sell them too. And I also have a Solectria drive
(motor,trans & controller) Thanks. Jens
_________________________________________________________________
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I know quite a few bikers, some of them drive 3 wheelers, one wheel in front,
two in the back. When you steer the bike into a turn with the front wheel,it
can roll over.Thats the problem! The Evette doesn`t steer with the front
wheel,the front wheel is not really even a load bearing wheel. The car steers
by the rear tires, electronically. I can make turns better and faster than a
4wheel car.
Tom Sines
-----Original Message-----
>From: David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Jul 13, 2007 8:05 PM
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>Subject: Re: Electric Evette
>
>Better Google those weights. One caution -- at least one web site mixes up kg
>and lbs for the EV1 battery weight. The EV1 and the Solectria Sunrise were
>about 40% battery by weight. Tom S. says his Evette is 61%.
>
>While in theory 3 wheels verses 4 wheels can help, it also could be the EV1
>had a full interior, air bags, air conditioning, a heater, roll down windows,
>etc. I don't know how fully equipped the Sunrise or Evette are. Even so, it is
>pretty impressive, you'd have to get 1000 lbs out of an EV1 to get it to be
>61% battery.
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: Peter Gabrielsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 4:33:20 PM
>Subject: Re: Electric Evette
>
>
>I'm pretty sure both the EV1 (or at least the Impact) and the Solectria
>sunrise held about 2/3 of their weight in batteries. This is a result of
>having been designed as EVs from the ground up using lightweight composites
>construction, much like your Evette.
>
>So if you argument is about custom designed EV vs conversion EV then it's
>true, however, it doesn't say much about your choice of vehicle configuration.
>In fact I think both previously mentioned vehicles carry slightly more
>batteries/weight than the Evette (can't find the data) and with those two
>giant wheels on the back I'm sure you get less range due to rolling resistance.
>
>It's a very nifty vehicle though.
>
>
>On 7/13/07, Tom S. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Hi Peter,
>>
>> Let me explain in a little more detail, the Evette weighs about a 1000lbs
>> without batteries,it will bold up to 40 orbital batteries at about 40lbs a
>> piece, thats about 1600lbs.Thats a ratio of 1.6/1, and a total weight of
>> 2600lbs. Electric conversions that can hold 40 orbitals ,will be 2000lbs or
>> more,thats a total weight of 3600lbs or more. Agree or disagree?
>
>
>
>____________________________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
GGHHAAAAA! This is so disappointing! That I am not there, that is. Earlier
this year we were hoping to make it to the Wayland invitational, but, as the
time nears, no money and no vacation time :( So, Heidi will be painting and I
will be here stuffing circuit boards.
It is already clear that this is major stuff going down! So please! lots of
good video!!
And thanks Rod for keeping us up to date!
Ken
In a message dated 7/14/2007 1:18:55 AM Central Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I just talked to John at the PIR track. They were having a minor heating
issue with the batteries. They also left their 12 volt auxiliary battery on
while they were charging and when they made their third run of the night the
voltage was not enough to hold in their contactor. It dropped out three
times on the run. There is so much press there it is like Hollywood
Paparazzi. Even with power dropping off three times during the run they were
able to pull off an 11.974 run at 105.68 mph and totally wasted the hot
Mustang in the other lane that had done an awesome fear invoking burnoff.
Alas the White Zombie just waltzed away under partial power. Killacycle's
second run wowed the crowd with a blistering 8.7 second 152 mph run.
Spectators and the press are finally starting to envision the true power and
the future of EVs. It is definitely a special night for electric vehicles!
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can a test to a power steering system working ok if you just poor
some fluid (for lubrication) in it and put a jumper for in to out on the
gearbox.
There are three other two things that come to mind.
Power steering allowed manufacturers to make the steering wheel smaller
and use a lower gear ratio.
It also allowed american car manufacturers to increase the caster
setting on their heavy cars.
I was autocrossing a mitsubishi PU (I know, don't laugh, Long story,
but it actually did pretty good)
The stock 4 turns lock to lock steering was killing me, so i went and
got a stearing gear from a truck that had PS and turned it to lock and
poored in fluid then put the jumper hose on it, (no hose clamps in case
I missjudged oil amount so it would pop hose off instead of lock) This
gave me more like 2.5:1 lock to lock but the steering effort went up.
The caster on a car causes you to lift the outside front corner of the
vehicle as it turns the wheel. Usually this is where most the effort is.
This weight pushes back down tending to straighten out the steering and
makes it consumer friendly after a slow speed turn, (like at a stoplight).
I played with alignment settings alot and was able to make that little
truck feel like a 70's buick with a dead SP pump, Liked to go straight,
very stable, and hard as heck to turn. All the way to an Austin Healy
Sprite feel where if you let go of steering wheel at speed, it would
jump lanes. You had to steer the car out of corners, steping on the gas
wasn't sufficient. I tired 8degrees that was like the buick, up to
2degrees and that was like the sprite. and eventually settled on about 3.
PS you can't and don't want to go less than about 3. Things flex. Caster
is usually lost during a panic stop. If it is set for 3 it will get
reduced to 1 during this heavy breaking. Obviously the stock mighty max
suspension was really soft in this regard.(porshe wouldn't have this
problem). This is just like not having enough toe-in, when it crosses
zero the forces change direction and the vehicle drifts the other way.
It is a white knuckle squiggly line stop.
If you plan on replaceing the steering wheel, There are D shaped wheels
that allow you to get the leverage and not hit your lap.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oh, one more thing. Late model powersteering pumps have a electrically
controlled bypass valve that reduces the load on the pump when you are
driving straight.
I think it goes off of engine speed. I would guess normally bypassing a
portion and clamped down, building more pressure when your doing the
slow turning where you need it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would be interested in finding out if a roller could be obtained.
Getting much batteries in it would be a challenge, but perhaps a good
li-ion candidate.
I just can't look at the back of that thing with out thinking "Dalek"(Dr
Who Reference)
One of the thinks I have designed into my ideal electric vehicle is a
dash with cameras and screens in stead of sticking a mirror out in the
wind, looks like they did that, but what the heck is that strut across
the dash LOL?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jerry wrote
>I have a question about 80% DOD voltage for my traction pack. I am using 24
>Deca GC-15 6 volt golf cart batteries in my S-10 pickup (144 volt nominal).
> I have an E-Meter to monitor voltage or amps drawn.
> I am confused about the voltage reading while I am driving. What is the
> lowest
> voltage I can go to while under load for the 80%? And what would it be for
> 50% DOD?
>
> Thanks, Jerry Wagner
Specific Gravity
% SOC @ 80°F 6V 12V 96v 144V 180 v
100 1.277 6.37 12.74 101.9 152.8 191.1
90 1.258 6.31 12.62 101.0 151.4 189.3
80 1.238 6.25 12.50 100.0 150.0 187.5
70 1.217 6.19 12.38 99.4 148.4 185.7
60 1.195 6.12 12.24 97.9 146.9 183.6
50 1.172 6.05 12.10 96.8 145.2 181.5
40 1.148 5.98 11.99 95.9 143.5 179.4
30 1.124 5.91 11.82 94.6 141.7 177.3
20 1.098 5.83 11.63 93.0 139.9 174.9
10 1.073 5.75 11.50 92.0 138.1 172.5
This is from a spreadsheet that I made so all the formatting will be lost, but
if you reconstruct it using a fixed font width it will show you the volts for
SOC %
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
www.TEVA2.com
www.Airphibian.com
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--- Begin Message ---
Or "what to do with the old ECM."
Here is a thought.
Most gliders from 1995 onward that had an ECM that adjusted spark
timing in relation to tables and calculations from maps in memory
representing load, speed and throttle position.
If we could figure out what servo to use, on one of the outputs,
maybe we could use one of these to control the timing on a ABR.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yup. I write articles and things for them from time to time.
Z
On 7/13/07, Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hey, Zeke, is that you with the write-up in this month's issue of Home
Power magazine?
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually, Sparking is a necessary part of a dc motor's operation. If you
were able to eliminate it entirely the protective and lubricating film
that is constantly worn off by friction and rebuilt by sparking thru
moist air would be lost. The friction would skyrocket and the brushes
would wear away or cut into the armature.
Reliance motor has an article on the web on brush selection. It is
determined by amps. service duty, environment.
Instead of a camera, what about a photo cell. we advance the timng based
on rpm only as a default. As the arcing begins to increase, and long
before, flash over, we retard the timing(less advance) when the arcing
gets brighter, increaseing the voltage from the photocell.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Regarding my previous post, all I can say is, "Ug, it's too early in the
morning." The "toothed belt acceptor" should have just said "pulley" --
a lot less keystrokes. :)
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In the Tropica, there's a piece that fits over the motor shaft which
accepts the toothed belt. I'd like to reduce the gear ratio of the
Tropica from 5:2:1 to something closer to 4:1. Are those toothed gear
acceptors something that you can buy in various sizes, or would they
have to be custom-made?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is great! I'm still laughing about Rod's first post. Keep on
having good times for those of us that can't be there.
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Prove it.
Trot, the skeptical, fox...
On 7/14/07, Tom S. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi,
I know quite a few bikers, some of them drive 3 wheelers, one wheel in front,
two in the back. When you steer the bike into a turn with the front wheel,it
can roll over.Thats the problem! The Evette doesn`t steer with the front
wheel,the front wheel is not really even a load bearing wheel. The car steers
by the rear tires, electronically. I can make turns better and faster than a
4wheel car.
Tom Sines
--
| /\_/\ TrotFox \ Always remember,
| ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon \ "There is a
| >\_/< [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ third alternative."
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks, the format worked just fine. I get readings much lower during
acceleration, down in the low 120's. Is this normal?
Jerry
-----Original Message-----
>From: Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Jul 14, 2007 8:56 AM
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>Subject: Re: 80 % discharge voltage
>
>Jerry wrote
>
>
>>I have a question about 80% DOD voltage for my traction pack. I am using 24
>>Deca GC-15 6 volt golf cart batteries in my S-10 pickup (144 volt nominal).
>> I have an E-Meter to monitor voltage or amps drawn.
>> I am confused about the voltage reading while I am driving. What is the
>> lowest
>> voltage I can go to while under load for the 80%? And what would it be for
>> 50% DOD?
>>
>> Thanks, Jerry Wagner
>
>
> Specific Gravity
>% SOC @ 80°F 6V 12V 96v 144V 180 v
>
>100 1.277 6.37 12.74 101.9 152.8 191.1
> 90 1.258 6.31 12.62 101.0 151.4 189.3
> 80 1.238 6.25 12.50 100.0 150.0 187.5
> 70 1.217 6.19 12.38 99.4 148.4 185.7
> 60 1.195 6.12 12.24 97.9 146.9 183.6
> 50 1.172 6.05 12.10 96.8 145.2 181.5
> 40 1.148 5.98 11.99 95.9 143.5 179.4
> 30 1.124 5.91 11.82 94.6 141.7 177.3
> 20 1.098 5.83 11.63 93.0 139.9 174.9
> 10 1.073 5.75 11.50 92.0 138.1 172.5
>
>This is from a spreadsheet that I made so all the formatting will be lost, but
>if you reconstruct it using a fixed font width it will show you the volts for
>SOC %
>
>Rush
>Tucson AZ
>www.ironandwood.org
>www.TEVA2.com
>www.Airphibian.com
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tom does the front passively caster at all?
If not does it scrub in tighter slower turns?
And how and when did you make the car body? Nice video of it on
kickinggas.org
On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 5:25 am, Tom S. wrote:
Hi,
I know quite a few bikers, some of them drive 3 wheelers, one wheel in
front, two in the back. When you steer the bike into a turn with the
front wheel,it can roll over.Thats the problem! The Evette doesn`t
steer with the front wheel,the front wheel is not really even a load
bearing wheel. The car steers by the rear tires, electronically. I
can make turns better and faster than a 4wheel car.
Tom Sines
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
Their numbers are using nationwide averages, which use the nastiest
dirtiest coal plants as part of the equation. Of -course- the very
latest technology lean diesel engines using biodiesel itself a fuel
low in pollutants) will win out. It's a matter of stacking the deck,
because as long as there is a fuel, the oil companies will have the
hammerlock.
None of that matters. Right now, this second, the grid can support 20
million electric cars, assuming they do most of their charging at
night. Today. That is the amount of power electric companies are
wasting at night due to wasted capacity. What that means is that for
the first 20 million electric cars put out there, we are lowering
pollution no matter HOW the electricity is being produced.
By the time we get 20 million electric cars out there, I'd say we
could probably have most of those old coal plants cleaned up. So
honestly, why even talk about this? It's an argument used by the
petrol folks. I don't care how efficient an electric car is compared
to petrol, honestly. I mean its NICE that they are so efficient, but
the big thing about EVs is not that they are so efficient (although
that is a positive aspect). The big thing about it is that you can
power them on THE SUN. You don't need -any- liquid fuels whatsoever.
You can use wind, solar, hydro.. any sort of natural motive power
instead of having to -burn- anything. And since you won't -have- to,
then people will suddenly not want to.
That's the real deal. Thats the big-ness right there! This 'well to
wheels' thing is a red herring and not worth the effort. It's like
comparing dynamite fishing to fly fishing by talking about how many
fish you get per joule of energy in a stick of dynamite vs. how much
heat energy per person is spent fishing for the trout in cold water.
Ridiculous!
--T
PS: For the record, Nukes are bad from an economic point of view. You
shouldn't want nukes, mainly because they are so expensive to produce
and maintain, and so dangerous, that the government has to underwrite
construction, AND had to pass a bill exempting nuclear power plants
from liability in the event of a disaster. Honestly, I'd much rather
build craploads of wind farms and solar plants. They are the cheapest,
long term. No liability issues, no cleanup issues, easy to operate and
maintain.
On 7/12/07, john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
There is an official government sponsored program at Argonne Labs called GREET
to measure exactly what you are all
talking about. I have started writing a piece about it, but the details are
very complex, and its taking a long time.
just google GREET argonne should bring it up...
anyway the conclusion was highly optimized bio-diesel hybrid IIRC correctly was
less polluting than a pure EV using
coal-fired electricity. Natural-gas->H2 fuel cell was too of course. Many other
technologies/fuels were in the same
ballpark. I can't tell yet what parameters they used for each fuel ( and there
are many) but it is truly a well to
wheels attempt at figuring out the cost.
Before you all blow a gasket, the reason the bio-diesel does better than EVs is
that diesel and especially some kinds of
bio-diesel, take a lot less energy and less pollution than coal-fired power.
Obviously if you use hydro or solar/wind or
natural gas to make electricity you'll get a different result. The study uses
nationwide averages, rather than
state-by-state numbers AFAIK.
caveat- haven't crunched all the numbers yet, so read it yourself.
Lesson I take from it?
You are only as clean as your electrons.
gotta get existing coal plants cleaned up right away and focus on all new
plants to minimize pollution. Nukes will help
but are many years out. I believe this could be seen as a political statement
too.
John
GWMobile wrote:
> The comparision has been done it the amount of pollutants released for
> electric car power production is miniscule compared to automotive gas use.
>
>
--
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in
peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the
hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may
posterity forget that you were our countrymen.
-----Samuel Adams
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I can't wait for tonight! Last night half the fun was watching John and Tim
figure out how not to go *too* fast and get thrown off the track!
There were so many cameras everywhere you had to be really careful about
nose-picking and saying ignorant things about EVs!
Killacycle blew the crowd away and I suspect tonight will break records if
they can keep the rear tire on the rim (they spun it right off the bead on
their first burnout of the night!).
Last but not least, all the people working hard and sharing expertise and
enthusiasm are changing impressions about electric vehicles. It was great
putting faces to names.
Weekend's only half over... Yeeehaaaaaaaw!!!
Lon Hull,
Portland, OR
----- Original Message -----
From: "MIKE WILLMON" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 2:08 AM
Subject: Re: Amost Live from PIR, 1st Update
DUDE!! I WAS THERE. Not to rub it it, but it was an awsome spectacle.
Being this was my first EVer drag race EVent I must say EVen the fast
gassers barely turned my head away from all the dedicated Amp heads
loitering around. Kiilcycle, awesome!!! Thats all I can say. I
couldn't get a pic of the launch because the 500ms delay on my camera was
killing me. I tried leading Scotty more and more each time and after 4
tries I still failed to get him in the frame; not EVen the back tire :-(
White Zombie with the Lithium pack, was Awesome!!! On the last run Tim
pulled an 11.5 something (I'll let John fill in the details in his part 2
( and now Part 3) of the White Zombie commentary) But holy sh%$, the
crowd goes wild, there's a fire on the Zombie, EVeryone's chattering
""The Zombie is on fire". Looking down the track wondering what the track
officials are doing to help out at the end of the track. John's on his
cell phone, hands up in the air saying "Awe its alright, Tim just pulled
the Oh Sh%$ handle". Apparently the mechanical linkage on the accelerator
pedal got stuck down and jamming on the the brakes and locking up the
front tires only slowed the RPM's down from 6600 to 6000. Front tires
sliding and no slowing down the OH SH%$ bar comes out and a large flash
and smoke resembling a motor zorching gets the crowds attention. Tim
drives it back to the pits however like nothing is wrong. Except that
about half an inch of rubber from one side of each of
the front tires is missing with a nice flat spot about twice the size of
my hand is readily noticable. 550 feet of dragging the front brakes at
1000 battery amps might tend to do that to front tires :-O The track guys
said they've never seen a skid mark that long :-O
I'd concur with the obsceneties Wildman alluded to that most likely were
relayed by John Wayland. After losing my drag racing virginity by seeing
a race for the first time, I was also honored by being given a ride to my
hotel across the river by none other that John Wayland himself (in the
White Zombie). Luckily there is a seatbelt in the passenger seat. If
John says the lithium pack is obscene, believe him!!! (I have no doubt
I'd have said that with the Lead Acid pack as well though) With the full
2000 motor amps flowing through those amazing Siamese 8's the car was
severely traction limited. Ass end swinging all over creation looking for
a sticky spot to grab onto; all the while flat spots in the front tires
just about rattling my teeth out. I did notice though under hard
acceleration when the weight was lifted slightly off the front tires it
was a smooth, plain old kick in the ass. Talk about launching... I can't
imagine also wearing a helmet. It must be all that
TIm can do to keep the blood flowing to his eyeballs.
I know this is not a lot of hard core data, but its 2am here and I gotta
get some sleep. John is probably just now making it home trying to figure
out where to get new front tires tomorrow. So chew on this first thing
when you wake up and hopefully after the show John will give you the full
skinny.
Oh yeah, and Jim Husted finished up that pound of coffe I sent him and
called me yesterday to say my motors for the Pinto were done and that he'd
be bringing them to the races and show tomorrow. Well I got to see them,
and fondle them a little as Jim was showing them off from the back of his
truck. I must say that Jim must be bucking for the magazines now with
this job. And with the work I just saw he's going to get it. While he
wasn't looking I saw the camera crews filming the motors with Hi-Torque
plastered all over them. The Flame Job coming out of the Pinto emblem
(really a Mustang Emblem on steroids) is superb. Its going to make a lot
of nice photo shoots. But hey I just want to get them in the Pinto and
get this thing on the track pulling some times. Jim, you can have your
couple days to say farewell, but once I hitch those bad horses up, it'll
be all over with but the crying. But hey take this to heart, John and Tim
couldn't bur your babies tonight, EVen wit
h lithium ion batteries :-) and thats a good thing, I guess.
Later,
Mike,
In Jantzen Beach outside of Portland, OR.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jukka Järvinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Saturday, July 14, 2007 12:13 am
Subject: Re: Amost Live from PIR, 1st Update
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
AWESOME NEWS !
I wish I could be there... -*sob*-....
pls.. upload videos to Youtube as soon as possible..
-Jukka
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I recently ran the numbers for an electric car here in Colorado (dirty
coal plants!). An electric car is no cleaner from a CO2 standpoint
than the same car on gasoline. BUT, like John says, use solar or
wind. We have program where for an extra 2.5cents a kWh you can buy
windpower from the big windfarms in CO an WY. Or, I have a solar
array on my house (60% paid for by the utility company -- they love
coal, but we had a statewide public referendum, and they were forced
to offer rebates for solar), and right now it's producing about 3
times as much as my house needs. AND, I can recharge and EV from my
house instead of having to go to Venezuala or Iraq or Nigeria or
wherever, to get fuel for it. Heck of a lot more convenient eh?
Z
On 7/14/07, Timothy Balcer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
John,
Their numbers are using nationwide averages, which use the nastiest
dirtiest coal plants as part of the equation. Of -course- the very
latest technology lean diesel engines using biodiesel itself a fuel
low in pollutants) will win out. It's a matter of stacking the deck,
because as long as there is a fuel, the oil companies will have the
hammerlock.
None of that matters. Right now, this second, the grid can support 20
million electric cars, assuming they do most of their charging at
night. Today. That is the amount of power electric companies are
wasting at night due to wasted capacity. What that means is that for
the first 20 million electric cars put out there, we are lowering
pollution no matter HOW the electricity is being produced.
By the time we get 20 million electric cars out there, I'd say we
could probably have most of those old coal plants cleaned up. So
honestly, why even talk about this? It's an argument used by the
petrol folks. I don't care how efficient an electric car is compared
to petrol, honestly. I mean its NICE that they are so efficient, but
the big thing about EVs is not that they are so efficient (although
that is a positive aspect). The big thing about it is that you can
power them on THE SUN. You don't need -any- liquid fuels whatsoever.
You can use wind, solar, hydro.. any sort of natural motive power
instead of having to -burn- anything. And since you won't -have- to,
then people will suddenly not want to.
That's the real deal. Thats the big-ness right there! This 'well to
wheels' thing is a red herring and not worth the effort. It's like
comparing dynamite fishing to fly fishing by talking about how many
fish you get per joule of energy in a stick of dynamite vs. how much
heat energy per person is spent fishing for the trout in cold water.
Ridiculous!
--T
PS: For the record, Nukes are bad from an economic point of view. You
shouldn't want nukes, mainly because they are so expensive to produce
and maintain, and so dangerous, that the government has to underwrite
construction, AND had to pass a bill exempting nuclear power plants
from liability in the event of a disaster. Honestly, I'd much rather
build craploads of wind farms and solar plants. They are the cheapest,
long term. No liability issues, no cleanup issues, easy to operate and
maintain.
On 7/12/07, john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> There is an official government sponsored program at Argonne Labs called
GREET to measure exactly what you are all
> talking about. I have started writing a piece about it, but the details are
very complex, and its taking a long time.
> just google GREET argonne should bring it up...
>
> anyway the conclusion was highly optimized bio-diesel hybrid IIRC correctly
was less polluting than a pure EV using
> coal-fired electricity. Natural-gas->H2 fuel cell was too of course. Many
other technologies/fuels were in the same
> ballpark. I can't tell yet what parameters they used for each fuel ( and
there are many) but it is truly a well to
> wheels attempt at figuring out the cost.
>
> Before you all blow a gasket, the reason the bio-diesel does better than EVs
is that diesel and especially some kinds of
> bio-diesel, take a lot less energy and less pollution than coal-fired power.
Obviously if you use hydro or solar/wind or
> natural gas to make electricity you'll get a different result. The study uses
nationwide averages, rather than
> state-by-state numbers AFAIK.
>
> caveat- haven't crunched all the numbers yet, so read it yourself.
>
> Lesson I take from it?
> You are only as clean as your electrons.
> gotta get existing coal plants cleaned up right away and focus on all new
plants to minimize pollution. Nukes will help
> but are many years out. I believe this could be seen as a political statement
too.
>
> John
>
> GWMobile wrote:
> > The comparision has been done it the amount of pollutants released for
> > electric car power production is miniscule compared to automotive gas use.
> >
> >
>
>
--
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in
peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the
hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may
posterity forget that you were our countrymen.
-----Samuel Adams
--
Zeke Yewdall
Chief Electrical Engineer
Sunflower Solar, A NewPoint Energy Company
Cell: 720.352.2508
Office: 303.459.0177
FAX documents to: 720.269.1240
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.cosunflower.com
CoSEIA Certified
Certified BP Solar Installer
National Association of Home Builders
Quotable Quote
"In the dark of the moon, in flying snow,
in the dead of winter, war spreading,
families dying, the world in danger,
I walk the rocky hillside
sowing clover."
Wendell Berry
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It is a very good looking roller candidate.
It's front has somehow avoided that "70's home made fiberglass car
look"
A stretched version would hold a ton of batteries with little increase
in air drag.
On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 7:18 am, Jeff Shanab wrote:
I would be interested in finding out if a roller could be obtained.
Getting much batteries in it would be a challenge, but perhaps a good
li-ion candidate.
I just can't look at the back of that thing with out thinking
"Dalek"(Dr
Who Reference)
One of the thinks I have designed into my ideal electric vehicle is a
dash with cameras and screens in stead of sticking a mirror out in the
wind, looks like they did that, but what the heck is that strut across
the dash LOL?
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Would the typical 12v 7.5Ah ups batteries be able to physically
handle the currents required for driving? Even if it was buddied up
with 2 or 3 more?
Yes, if you had enough in parallel -- but "enough" is a lot! These
little UPS batteries often have 0.25" quick-connect terminals, which are
good for 15 amps of sustained current. An EV will draw 150 amps
sustained with no problem, so you'd need at least 10 of these batteries
in parallel to avoid terminal failures.
If you have (say) 10 in parallel, and (say) 12 sets of these in series
to get 144 volts, you'll have 120 of these batteries. That's a pretty
expensive pile, and will weigh a lot as well. It's going to take a lot
of time to wire them all up, too! This is not a practical approach
unless you happened to get a lot of them almost free and don't mind all
the work.
Also keep in mind that these cheap UPS batteries aren't built for a long
cycle life. They probably won't last for 100 cycles in EV use.
My other line of thought was to find a battery recycler or auto shop
and just get some salvage batteries for a first drive around the
pasture. Golf cart batteries are also an option but I like the idea
of ups AGM's.
I think this is a better strategy. Many large commercial UPS use much
larger batteries that would be more suitable for EV use. They often
change these batteries every 2-3 years whether they need to or not, just
to be safe (you don't want the batteries in a hospital UPS to die in the
middle of an operation)!
Just be sure to *test* the batteries before buying. Also, remember that
the cycle life of these batteries is low, so pay a price commensurate
with their expected life (like 100 cycles).
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Mark> ... as well as the car is overpriced for the average buying
Mark> public.
They are not targeting the average buying public for their first vehicle.
Like many new automotive technologies they will start out at the high end
and work their way down the price curve over time as production quantities
and manufacturing experience increase, and economies of scale kick in. As I
recall, their next car is supposed to be a four-door sedan with a price
target of $50-60k. That's still not average, but it's both more practical
and would put it squarely in the midst of higher end sedans currently on the
market. Here's the first link I came across when I googled "tesla white
star":
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/08/tesla_motors_ev.php
--
Skip Montanaro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.webfast.com/~skip/
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