Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

> On 28 Nov 2014, at 1:43 pm, John Clark wrote: > > Yes but tell me of the examples you have found of Evolution producing > intelligence without consciousness. > > John K Clark iPhones. Smart fridges. Self-driving cars. Computers. Space probes etc. etc. Evolution has produced all of thes

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

On Thursday, November 27, 2014 8:59:42 PM UTC, Kim Jones wrote: > > > > Al Hibbs, you have once again forgotten to uncheck the "cc to sender" > button before sending which is, as everyone knows, the clearest signal that > you are Al Hibbs since no one else who inhabits this list does that becau

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 11:30 PM, meekerdb wrote: > More likely we will make an AI that is intelligent, is not conscious like > a human with an inner narrative but is conscious in some other way which > will be very difficult for us to recognize. > With the obvious exception of our own, consciou

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 LizR wrote: > And we *know* ants aren't conscious > And how do we know ants aren't conscious? Because just like dead people they aren't BEHAVING as if they were. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything Lis

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 4:37 PM, LizR wrote: > I saw a comment higher up the list to the effect that "if you can have > intelligence without consciousness, Darwin was wrong". > I said that and I know of no conclusion that is more obviously true. > Clearly evolutionary examples show you can have

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 7:09 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: >> The 2nd law is like that - unlikely things generally failing to happen - >> on the molecular scale, a zillion times per second. You can't circumvent it >> unless you can circumvent the maths of probability. >> > > > Which means that it coun

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

LizR wrote: I don't understand how this works, so I can't comment on the details. I seem to remember asking for a simple version that a dummy like me can understand - and don't recall seeing it, although maybe I missed it. But in any case the 2nd law isn't a law of physics, it's just what tend

Re: Is Dark Energy Gobbling Dark Matter, and Slowing Universe's Expansion?

LizR wrote: Still no comment on the fact (if it is a fact) that if galaxies are losing mass thru dark matter annihilation, they should be expanding. The reports I have seen about possible detection of dark matter annihilation events suggest a rate that is far too low to have any appreciable e

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

> On 28 Nov 2014, at 9:01 am, LizR wrote: > >> On 28 November 2014 at 10:56, Kim Jones wrote: >>> On 28 Nov 2014, at 8:41 am, Kim Jones wrote: On 28 Nov 2014, at 8:35 am, LizR wrote: > On 26 November 2014 at 22:52, Bruno Marchal wrote: > You need consciousness to develop intell

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

On 28 November 2014 at 10:56, Kim Jones wrote: > On 28 Nov 2014, at 8:41 am, Kim Jones wrote: > > On 28 Nov 2014, at 8:35 am, LizR wrote: > > On 26 November 2014 at 22:52, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> You need consciousness to develop intelligence, and you need intelligence >> to develop competen

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

> On 28 Nov 2014, at 8:41 am, Kim Jones wrote: > > > > >> On 28 Nov 2014, at 8:35 am, LizR wrote: >> >>> On 26 November 2014 at 22:52, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> You need consciousness to develop intelligence, and you need intelligence >>> to develop competence. >> >> IN my humble opini

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

On 28 November 2014 at 10:41, Kim Jones wrote: > > On 28 Nov 2014, at 8:35 am, LizR wrote: > > On 26 November 2014 at 22:52, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> You need consciousness to develop intelligence, and you need intelligence >> to develop competence. >> > > IN my humble opinion you don't need c

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

> On 28 Nov 2014, at 8:35 am, LizR wrote: > >> On 26 November 2014 at 22:52, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> You need consciousness to develop intelligence, and you need intelligence to >> develop competence. > > IN my humble opinion you don't need consciousness to develop intelligence. > Large p

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

I saw a comment higher up the list to the effect that "if you can have intelligence without consciousness, Darwin was wrong". Clearly evolutionary examples show you can have intelligence without consciousness - the development of organisms encodes intelligent responses to the environment. On 28 N

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 9:39 PM, meekerdb wrote: >> If consciousness does not effect intelligent behavior and if Darwin's >> Theory is correct then there is no alternative, consciousness is a >> spandrel. >> > > That assumes human beings and human evolution - and I agree with that > applicatio

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

On 26 November 2014 at 22:52, Bruno Marchal wrote: > You need consciousness to develop intelligence, and you need intelligence > to develop competence. > IN my humble opinion you don't need consciousness to develop intelligence. Large parts of our own brains behave intelligently - e.g. processin

Re: real A.I.

On 27 November 2014 at 23:29, Telmo Menezes wrote: > On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 9:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 26 Nov 2014, at 14:42, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> Nice :) >> >> One of the funny things about our sense of self-importance is that we >> imagine super-intelligent entities trying to

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

Al Hibbs, you have once again forgotten to uncheck the "cc to sender" button before sending which is, as everyone knows, the clearest signal that you are Al Hibbs since no one else who inhabits this list does that because there is no need whatsoever for this. If you are not doing it inadverten

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

I don't understand how this works, so I can't comment on the details. I seem to remember asking for a simple version that a dummy like me can understand - and don't recall seeing it, although maybe I missed it. But in any case the 2nd law isn't a law of physics, it's just what tends to happen give

Re: Is Dark Energy Gobbling Dark Matter, and Slowing Universe's Expansion?

Still no comment on the fact (if it is a fact) that if galaxies are losing mass thru dark matter annihilation, they should be expanding. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

On Thursday, November 27, 2014 8:15:59 PM UTC, Kim Jones wrote: > > > > > > > On 28 Nov 2014, at 6:59 am, Kim Jones > wrote: > > > > > > > >> On 27 Nov 2014, at 7:28 pm, Bruno Marchal > wrote: > >> > >> Sometimes intelligence itself can be an handicap for getting the > competence. A stup

Re: Is Dark Energy Gobbling Dark Matter, and Slowing Universe's Expansion?

On Thursday, November 27, 2014 2:52:48 AM UTC, Liz R wrote: > > > On 26 November 2014 at 22:05, > wrote: > >> >> On Tuesday, November 25, 2014 6:50:00 PM UTC, Liz R wrote: >>> >>> And I said that it seemed to me that if dark matter was being destroyed >>> galaxies should be expanding, and asked

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

> On 28 Nov 2014, at 6:59 am, Kim Jones wrote: > > > >> On 27 Nov 2014, at 7:28 pm, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> Sometimes intelligence itself can be an handicap for getting the competence. >> A stupid student can study the course better than a clever student, because >> the clever studen

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

> On 27 Nov 2014, at 7:28 pm, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > Sometimes intelligence itself can be an handicap for getting the competence. > A stupid student can study the course better than a clever student, because > the clever student want to understand the details, and get stuck on > philosophi

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

> On 27 Nov 2014, at 7:28 pm, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > Sometimes intelligence itself can be an handicap for getting the competence. > A stupid student can study the course better than a clever student, because > the clever student want to understand the details, and get stuck on > philosophi

Re: Two apparently different forms of entropy

On Thursday, November 27, 2014 8:16:40 AM UTC, Bruce wrote: > > LizR wrote: > > On 27 November 2014 at 04:51, spudboy100 via Everything List > > > > > wrote: > > > > Entropy and Time seem related, or at least one seems at least one > > aspect of

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

On 11/27/2014 12:28 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 26 Nov 2014, at 23:56, meekerdb wrote: On 11/26/2014 11:23 AM, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 , Bruno Marchal mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be>> wrote: > I agree that consciousness is not intelligence. I agree also. > An entity can

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

On 11/27/2014 12:19 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 26 Nov 2014, at 23:34, meekerdb wrote: On 11/26/2014 9:53 AM, John Clark wrote: No that is not fine. I DEFINE intelligence just as everybody else does, the ability to find novel solutions to new problems, the greater the variety of problems the

Re: real A.I.

On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 9:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 26 Nov 2014, at 14:42, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > Nice :) > > One of the funny things about our sense of self-importance is that we > imagine super-intelligent entities trying to destroy us, but we rarely > consider the possibility that t

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

On Thursday, November 27, 2014 8:09:34 AM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 26 Nov 2014, at 20:23, John Clark wrote: > > > On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 , Bruno Marchal > > wrote: > > > I agree that consciousness is not intelligence. >> > > I agree also. > > > OK. > > > > An entity can be competent, w

Re: real A.I.

On 26 Nov 2014, at 14:42, Telmo Menezes wrote: Nice :) One of the funny things about our sense of self-importance is that we imagine super-intelligent entities trying to destroy us, but we rarely consider the possibility that they would just have no desire to interact with us. Calvin a

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

On 27 Nov 2014, at 05:33, meekerdb wrote: On 11/26/2014 4:59 PM, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 meekerdb wrote: >> I insist also to distinguish intelligence from competence. > My understanding is that intelligence refers to learning ability and behavior adaptability to novel cir

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

On 27 Nov 2014, at 03:39, meekerdb wrote: On 11/26/2014 4:41 PM, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 meekerdb wrote: > I don't think human consciousness is a spandrel If consciousness does not effect intelligent behavior and if Darwin's Theory is correct then there is no alternative,

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

On 27 Nov 2014, at 01:59, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 meekerdb wrote: >> I insist also to distinguish intelligence from competence. > My understanding is that intelligence refers to learning ability and behavior adaptability to novel circumstances. Competence is being able

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

On 26 Nov 2014, at 23:56, meekerdb wrote: On 11/26/2014 11:23 AM, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 , Bruno Marchal wrote: > I agree that consciousness is not intelligence. I agree also. > An entity can be competent, without intelligence [...] An entity can be intelligent, without

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

On 26 Nov 2014, at 23:34, meekerdb wrote: On 11/26/2014 9:53 AM, John Clark wrote: No that is not fine. I DEFINE intelligence just as everybody else does, the ability to find novel solutions to new problems, the greater the variety of problems the greater the intelligence. I DEDUCE that

Re: Two apparently different forms of entropy

LizR wrote: On 27 November 2014 at 04:51, spudboy100 via Everything List > wrote: Entropy and Time seem related, or at least one seems at least one aspect of the other. Is it sensible to think then, that there are two or more types of entropy

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

On 26 Nov 2014, at 20:23, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 , Bruno Marchal wrote: > I agree that consciousness is not intelligence. I agree also. OK. > An entity can be competent, without intelligence [...] An entity can be intelligent, without competence I don't understand t