Hi Richard Ruquist I think that the "empty" or "missing" pieces to the jigsaw puzzle are simply intelligence, which like life itself, is goal-oriented.
Intelligence is not a bottom-up activity, it is a top-down activity. It is also goal-oriented, so it has to be explained by Aristotle's "end causation", not the traditional "effective causation." Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/6/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: Richard Ruquist Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-05, 14:22:12 Subject: Re: Subjectivity is no longer a dirty word! A nice video discussingthedual aspect theory Deacon's 600 page book (http://www.amazon.com/Incomplete-Nature-Mind-Emerged-Matter/dp/0393049914) flushes out the philosophical outlines of Nagel's much shorter book (http://www.amazon.com/Mind-Cosmos-Materialist-Neo-Darwinian-Conception). I found a fairly complete summary of Deacon's book on how life emerges from non-living matter. (Actually Deacon just presents a teleological systems analysis of how that could happen). But regarding a dual-aspect theory, here is a relevant paragraph from that summary (http://www.mdpi.com/2078-2489/3/3/290/htm): "The Cartesian dualism that Deacon criticizes is substance dualism, the notion that there are two kinds of substance of which the world is constructed, namely physical substance (res extensa) and mental substance (res cogitans), the latter of which in Descartes systems includes God and soul. Deacon? system is actually one of property dualism in which there is just one kind of substance but there exist two distinct kinds of properties, physical and biological the latter of which also includes sentience and mind or in Deacon? terminology physical and ententional. Physical properties are described by thermodynamics and morphodynamics whereas ententional properties are described by teleodynamics, which in turn depend on morphodynamics and thermodynamics." Deacon's one kind of substance is physical substance. But it seems that such a systems approach may be of value no matter (pun) what the substance is or even if there is more than one kind of substance. Deacon presents mechanisms that could be a guide for emergent processes in living systems that could apply to physical matter or even to monads or mind structures from numbers. Richard On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 05 Oct 2012, at 13:33, Roger Clough wrote: > >> Hi Richard Ruquist >> >> I appreciate your suggestion, but I am already convinced, >> and have other sources besides that. >> >> What I'm looking for is a book which gives the central >> mechanism of abiogenesis, the production of living >> matter from nonliving matter. If indded there is >> such a thing. > > > Mind emerges from numbers (or from the combinators, etc.). > > Matter emerge from mind. > > Comp explains completely why it looks the contrary locally. > > Comp might be false, but as matter emerges from mind in a precise way, comp > ("I survive through machine substitution at some level") is made refutable. > > Bruno > > > > >> >> >> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net >> 10/5/2012 >> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen >> >> >> ----- Receiving the following content ----- >> From: Richard Ruquist >> Receiver: everything-list >> Time: 2012-10-05, 07:15:41 >> Subject: Re: Subjectivity is no longer a dirty word! A nice video >> discussingthe dual aspect theory >> >> >> Along the theme of a dual-aspect theory of reality, >> I recommend the book >> "Mind and Cosmos:Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of >> Nature Is Almost Certainly False" by Nagel, Thomas. >> It actually has little to do with Darwin but rather discusses how >> consciousness, cognition, etc. cannot not be explained by materialism. >> Richard >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 6:02 AM, Roger Clough wrote: >>> >>> Hi Stephen P. King >>> >>> Many thanks, Stephan ! >>> >>> I should have known it before, but >>> double-aspect and/or dual-aspect theories >>> of mind aren't afraid of using the word >>> "subjectivity". >>> >>> Now all they have to do is find out >>> who or what is the subjectr of subjectivity ! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net >>> 10/5/2012 >>> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen >>> >>> >>> ----- Receiving the following content ----- >>> From: Stephen P. King >>> Receiver: everything-list >>> Time: 2012-10-04, 09:14:20 >>> Subject: A nice video discussing the dual aspect theory >>> >>> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ3Z-Y99wW0 >>> >>> -- >>> Onward! >>> >>> Stephen >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Everything List" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Everything List" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>> >> >> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "Everything List" group. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >> > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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