Hi Craig Weinberg
OK, I was just thinking in my old engineering frame of mind. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/17/2013 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-17, 11:59:05 Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: MWI as an ontological error,it should beTwoAspects Theory On Thursday, January 17, 2013 11:54:03 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg Sorry, I'm missing your point. What is it ? You said "Potential energy is more than conceptual", so I am explaining why I disagree. Potential energy is entirely conceptual, just like any other potential, virtual, or symbolic value. Energy is a way of keeping track of what could happen, just as money is a way of keeping track of what people could do. Without people, we can see that money is just paper and numbers and metal bars. Without matter, energy is similarly nothing at all. [Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net] 1/17/2013 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-17, 10:59:12 Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: MWI as an ontological error,it should be TwoAspects Theory On Tuesday, January 15, 2013 6:31:51 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg 1) Good point. So far, there is only indirect evidence of gravity waves. http://www.centauri-dreams.org/?p=15438 2) Potential energy is more than conceptual, it is the elastic energy stored in rocks etc. by misfit, by irregular flow of the surrounding material. Like the energy stored in a compressed or extended spring. It's still conceptual. You could point to someone who has a bad temper and demonstrate that they warp the social environment around them. It could be said figuratively that they 'have a lot of anger stored up in them' or that they are 'potentially violent', but that doesn't mean that there is literally a quantity of potential violence that exists in their tissues or their aura or something. There is nothing stored in a compressed or extended spring, rather there is exactly what it looks like - a motive to restore an inertial equilibrium through motion. Its important to be able to pretend that energy is like a real commodity in order to calculate and engineer matter, but in the absence of matter, there can be no energy at all. Energy is a sensory-motive capacity, not a substance of any kind. 3) Your description of energy release is the only fancy here. Seismometers record the wave motion of earthquakes. Seismometers are made of matter, are they not? They measure only the changing positions of matter, nothing else. Craig [Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net] 1/15/2013 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-14, 11:51:03 Subject: Re: Re: Re: MWI as an ontological error, it should be TwoAspects Theory On Monday, January 14, 2013 7:06:57 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg Why not ? There are gravitational waves. How do you know there are gravitational waves? But earthquakes usually initiate waves by the sudden release of potential energy. Potential energy is conceptual. All that is happening is that there is a feeling of tension as different geological plates try to occupy the same position. Inertial bonds are broken in an orderly pattern, which we think of as wavelike because they remind us of other wavy motions. There is no wave. There is no energy. There is an acoustic-kinetic experience in the context of a tangible geological presence. Everything else is a posteriori analytical fiction. Craig [Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net] 1/14/2013 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-13, 09:48:20 Subject: Re: Re: MWI as an ontological error, it should be TwoAspects Theory On Sunday, January 13, 2013 7:56:25 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote: Hi Richard Ruquist EM waves are physical and exist in spacetime. You can capture them with an antenna, etc. Does an Earthquake capture a wave that is independent of the Earth? >From my view, the EM waves *are* the waving of the antenna in response to the >waving of a broadcasting antenna. Nothing more. There are no literal waves in >empty space. Matter is sensitive because matter is what it looks like when one >sensitivity interferes with another. To us, as embodied organisms, it looks >like a tangible obstacle to our tactile, aural, and optical senses. I see nothing especially wrong with the rest of you comments, you seem to have some interesting ideas. Thoughts travel instantly, but EM waves are physical (electrons) and so must travel at the speed of light. Thoughts don't travel. They are always 'here'. Craig [Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net] 1/13/2013 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: Richard Ruquist Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-12, 10:33:11 Subject: Re: MWI as an ontological error, it should be TwoAspects Theory EM waves and fields clearly exist in spacetime. Yet I would classify them along with quantum waves as part of the quantum mind and nonphysical. The photon particle and quantum particles appear to bridge the gap between the physical and the mind in a mind/body duality or as Roger puts it, a dual aspect theory. What I picture is that if everything happens instantly in the quantum mind, quantum and EM waves can collapse instantly into something the size of particles so that they may interact with other particles at the Planck scale. I think this is a necessary step, a collapse of waves to a particle size, even for MWI, in order to obtain multiple physical worlds. So it does not rule out MWI. But if waves can collapse instantly in the quantum mind, then the Feynman method of cancelling the infinities of Quantum Electrodynamics, equivalent to Cramer's Transactional Analysis, can be used to obtain a single world. The anti-particles that come back instantly from the future, so to speak, may cancel out all the extra worlds of MWI. Now it took some intelligence for Feynman to make his method work. So I imagine that the quantum mind must possess some form of consciousness and intelligence to choose which anti-particles are needed to cancel all the quantum states but one in any particle-particle interaction. I suspect that the quantum mind in each of us possesses similar consciousness. Moreover, I have come to accept the notion of a few consciousness investigators that consciousness is the energy of the quantum mind. I base my acceptance on how I focus my own consciousness to accomplish almost anything. It's like just putting out the energy of consciousness helps thoughts to emerge. Intelligence and free will may differ from consciousness but such intention can guide consciousness. Therefore intelligence and free will may have a deeper source. Richard On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 7:01 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: > Hi Roger, > > How can you have a wave without some notion of spatial/temporal dimensions? > > > On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Roger Clough wrote: >> >> Hi everything-list, >> >> I don't believe that Descartes would accept the MWI. >> Here's why: >> >> I think that the ManyWorldsInterpretation of QM is incorrect, >> due to the mistaken notion (IMHO) that quantum waves >> are physical waves, so that everything is physical and materialistic. >> >> This seems to deny "quantum weirdness" observed >> in the two-slit experiment. Seemingly if both the wave >> and the photon are physical, there should be nothing weird >> happening. >> >> My own view is that the weirdness arises because the >> waves and the photons are residents of two completely >> different but interpenetrating worlds, where: >> >> 1) the photon is a resident of the physical world, >> where by physical I mean (along with Descartes) >> "extended in space", >> >> 2) the quantum wave in nonphysical, being a resident of >> the nonphysical world (the world of mind), which has no >> extension in space. >> >> Under these conditions, there is no need >> to create an additional physical world, since each >> can exist as aspects of the the same world, >> one moving in spactime and being physical, the other, like >> mind, moving simulataneously in the nonphysical world >> beyond spacetime. >> >> [Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net] >> 1/12/2013 >> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> everything-li...@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > everything-li...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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