Hi chris kramer Evidence ? God is like the cat burglar and never leaves traces.
Generally, however, since God usually works through people (or angels), as once in a while in the Bible a stranger appears, or you might find a stranger (increased taxes) entering your life (usually to do evil), and if family or a friend, good will more likely happen. You also can do good (make a friend) and evil to yourself (accidents). [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/9/2013 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: chris kramer Receiver: mindbr...@yahoogroups.com Time: 2013-01-08, 21:21:32 Subject: Re: Re: [Mind and Brain] Why God sometimes has to let bad thingshappen tous. If the miracle leaves no evidence, what reason is on offer that there was a miracle? Roger, I am not sure what the point of your metaphor is if you do not see God as intervening, troubled waters or not. I suppose when it is admitted that "evidence does not apply", we are going to be talking passed each other; unless we come to some stipulative broadened definition of "evidence." Chris From: Roger Clough To: "- mindbr...@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Tuesday, January 8, 2013 5:14 AM Subject: Re: Re: [Mind and Brain] Why God sometimes has to let bad things happen tous. Hi chris kramer CHRIS: God intervenes, piloting us through rough waters? If this is the thesis, then science should have something to say about it. ROGER: "Rough waters" is a metaphor, useful to get a complex point communicated. CHRIS: We should have evidence of such an intervention. And if the Bible is accurate, then there have been such interventions in the past in which God has helped his creations navigate through the world he has made--parting seas, resurrecting some people. But this disrupts the free will theodicy which claims that if God intervenes to save us, then we lose our free will. So which is it? ROGER: "Rough waters" is merely a metaphor, evidence doesn't apply. And nobody had to lose their free will when the virgin Mary conceived or when Jesus was resurrected. To a God who could create this marvellous universe, these events would have been child's play. CHRIS: (when it really matters--but not during the Holocaust!) so as to not remove FW? ROGER: The Holocaust was caused at least by one man (AH), who freely chose to do evil.CHRIS: God does not ever intervene thereby maintaining our autonomy-? ROGER: That seems to be the case, it was with Hitler. CHRIS: God does not intervene, and yet we have no FW? ROGER: Sorry, I don't follow your logic here. We have free will. CHRIS: There is no God but we are free in the relevant moral sense? There is no God and the determinists are right? Some other alternative? CHRIS: I imagine the second option might be the most palatable to theists; but then such interventions ought to be subject to scientific scrutiny and all of the theoretical and empirical methods that go along with it. I think the evidence for such interventions is quite scarce. ROGER: Miracles often don't leave much evidence. From: Roger Clough To: "- mailto:%20mindbr...@yahoogroups.com"; Sent: Sunday, January 6, 2013 7:13 AM Subject: [Mind and Brain] Why God sometimes has to let bad things happen to us. Hi chris kramer Although God is all-powerful in Heaven, where there is no death, but down here, where death is ever present, God must try to pilot us through sometimes rough waters,in which his options are more limited. Down here, good and evil --life and death--are inextricably mixed together:a) Men have been given free will so that they can be truly moral, but that also allows them to sometimes do evil to you. b) In this universe, according to Nature's plan, nature usually allows good things to happen, like the spring rains, but it can also allow badthings to happen, like your getting cancer or there being a tsunamio.Chris From: Roger Clough To: "- mailto:%mailto:%2020mindbr...@yahoogroups.com"; Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 10:19 AM Subject: Re: Re: Re: [Mind and Brain] The evolution of good and evil Hi chris kramer 1) Calm down. 2) organize your thoughts. 3) Write simple declarative sentences. [Roger Clough], [mailto:rclough%40verizon.net] 1/4/2013 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: chris kramer Receiver: mailto:MindBrain%40yahoogroups.com Time: 2013-01-03, 16:47:43 Subject: Re: Re: [Mind and Brain] The evolution of good and evil So the equivalent of a parent spanking a child to correct child's behavior, let's say the child just hit his sister, is analogous to God striking humanity that strays with boils, hurricanes, disease...? Or allows genocide to take place. And as for proscribing the striking of a child as THE cause of moral degeneration (assuming there is one. Were times better in the US in the 50's? For whom? Minorities, women...?)...I can't begin to repsond to that transparent false cause fallacy. Chris From: Roger Clough To: "- mailto:MindBrain%40yahoogroups.com"; Sent: Thursday, January 3, 2013 9:02 AM Subject: Re: Re: [Mind and Brain] The evolution of good and evil Hi Dan Ghiocel reverence = fear + love Think of God as your father. Yes, you love him, but you could also get spanked. But I guess liberals don't allow spanking these days. That could be why our morals have gone to hell. [Roger Clough], mailto:mailto:rclough%40verizon.net] 1/3/2013 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: Dan Ghiocel Receiver: MindBrain Time: 2013-01-02, 20:08:09 Subject: Re: [Mind and Brain] The evolution of good and evil The "fear" element sneaked into Christianity and the New Testament from the idol worshiping of Judaism and The Old Testament.Dan GOn 1/2/2013 2:37 PM, chris kramer wrote: Is such belief both necessary and sufficient? If so, that is a very strange and quite limited morality. Chris From: Roger Clough mailto:mailto:rclough%40verizon.net To: "- mailto:MindBrain%40yahoogroups.com"; mailto:mailto:MindBrain%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2013 10:31 AM Subject: Re: Re: [Mind and Brain] The evolution of good and evil Hi Dan Ghiocel If you believe that Jesus died for your personal sins, you need not fear. [Roger Clough], mailto:mailto:rclough%40verizon.net] 1/2/2013 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: Dan Ghiocel Receiver: MindBrain Time: 2013-01-01, 20:44:44 Subject: Re: [Mind and Brain] The evolution of good and evil Why would one fear of heaven and hell outcome? People are volunteering for war all the time and they are not afraid of doing it! What "salvation" ? What would that consist of? Dan G On 1/1/2013 3:19 PM, chris kramer wrote: And if we fail to fear doing evil? how much constitutes failure? A little? God Knows? If Hell is the end result of failure, then how can anyone who believes in both Heaven and Hell avoid the neuroses that come along with the constant fear that one might suffer eternal torments? To assume one is saved seems the height of theological arrogance and surely lacks epistemic humility. Chris From: Roger Clough mailto:mailto:rclough%40verizon.net To: "- mailto:MindBrain%40yahoogroups.com"; mailto:mailto:mindbrain%40yahoogroups.com; everything-list mailto:mailto:everything-list%40googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 1, 2013 3:05 PM Subject: [Mind and Brain] The evolution of good and evil The evolution of good and evil There are two opposing forces in the universe, those which enhance life, which we call Good, and those which diminish life, which we call Evil. Thus it is not surprising that Mankind has two basic motivating feelings, love, which strives to enhance life, being goodness, and fear, which causes him to avoid enhancing or even diminishing life, being essentially evil. Those who believe in God believe that he has placed these two basic emotions in man so that we may fear and love God, to fear doing evil as well as to love him and do good. [Roger Clough], [mailto:rclough%40verizon.net] 1/1/2013 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen __._,_.___Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (6) Recent Activity: New Members 2 Visit Your Group Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest ? Unsubscribe ? Terms of Use ? Send us Feedback . __,_._,___ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. 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