Hi all,
I was considering removing myself from the list as I feel completely
alienated by all of the "expert" discussions on the list.
I run an Exim infrastructure for hundreds of users over multiple sites
in the UK. I regard myself as reasonably competent, I have been using
open source (Lin
>
> I think the expert discussion on the exim-users list is VERY useful for
> the experts but is too advanced for most new users and converters.
Couldn't agree more.
>
> I would like to suggest an "exim-new-users" list, primarily to increase
> the use of Exim with new users and converters.
[Good post snipped]
I see what you are saying. I have previously spoken against doing this
due to not wanting to leave new folks in a wasteland where the people
who can answer questions have done elsewhere.
It may now well be time to change this.
If we did, my preference would be to start a new
On Tue, Nov 15, 2005 at 05:21:14PM +, Nigel Metheringham wrote:
> [Good post snipped]
> I see what you are saying. I have previously spoken against doing this
> due to not wanting to leave new folks in a wasteland where the people
> who can answer questions have done elsewhere.
Agreed.
> It
On Tue, 15 Nov 2005, Matthew Byng-Maddick wrote:
>
> I don't like "exim-experts", but I don't know what else to suggest. Ideally
> it should be roughly welcoming (the group shouldn't stagnate), but it should
> discourage questions which are trivially answerable from the specification.
>
Maybe the
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Lugo
>
> Maybe the welcoming message to exim-users could contain a
> polite admonishment for new exim users suggesting that they
> search the faq, wiki, docs, etc 9along to a pointer to a
>
On Tue, 15 Nov 2005, Mark Smith wrote:
>
> When I first started using Exim I had almost no experience of mailservers,
> and had to learn it all from scratch. I found the online documentation
> totally bewildering and quickly became very frustrated. I understood the
> concepts, but when it came to t
Dave Lugo wrote:
Don't think that trial and error isn't useful: it may be tedious, but you
get a broader background of what works, and what breaks. (though it sure
can be frustrating! hehehe)
Scary, too. I remember back when I was a clueless newbie being
terrified that every time I launched
On 15/11/05, Dave Lugo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Maybe a "new-to-exim-and-smtp-in-general" list? ;)
A point worth discussing. Should the dumbed-down (not meant to be a
perjorative term) exim-users list accept basic 'I don't know anything
about email, but my Linux distro came with Exim and so
On 15 Nov 2005 at 19:10, Mark Smith wrote about
"RE: [exim] suggestion - exim-new-us":
|...
| Now it all seems very straightforward, but I can still remember those early
| days of total frustration, and I think a list for new users would be a Good
| Thing (TM).
What I'm not clear on is just h
Having read through your posts, I think I should clarify what I meant,
and personally would have liked to have seen or would have found useful
when I first started using Exim.
1) A usable config, no matter how simple. The sample config is very
thorough but now 20 pages long. I usually have to
Fred Viles Wrote:
> On 15 Nov 2005 at 19:10, Mark Smith wrote about
> "RE: [exim] suggestion - exim-new-us":
>
> |...
> | Now it all seems very straightforward, but I can still remember those
> early
> | days of total frustration, and I think a list for new users would be
> a Good
> | Thing (TM)
On Tue, 15 Nov 2005, Fred Viles wrote:
>
> What I'm not clear on is just how a "new users list" would have
> helped you. In what way are we thinking that answers on the proposed
> list would differ from answers here? All I've got so far is that the
> charter would request more toleration of RTFM
On Tue, 15 Nov 2005, kmb wrote:
> I tend to agree that we sometimes chase away new users with RTFM as
> an answer. or by talking down to users because they don;t know as
> much as we do and ask a basic question..
On the other hand, the reality is that operating an internet-facing
MTA is a pot
On Tue, 15 Nov 2005 22:41:06 + (GMT), Alan J. Flavell wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Nov 2005, kmb wrote:
>
> > I tend to agree that we sometimes chase away new users with RTFM as
> > an answer. or by talking down to users because they don;t know as
It depends on how it is done ... nothing wrong with
Just my 2 pennies...
A list for newbie users ends up like the FreeBSD question list: lots of
questions and no answers. I for one, have no time to read all the
mails on the Exim list as it is and would not even bother with the
newbie list. Not that I participate much or know much about Exim now a
On Tue, 15 Nov 2005, Jason Meers wrote:
> 1) A usable config, no matter how simple. The sample config is very thorough
> but now 20 pages long.
The *default* configuration (it isn't a sample, it really works :-) is
672 lines long, it is true (your printer has 34 lines per page?).
It's the way
Quoth Philip Hazel on Wed, Nov 16, 2005 at 10:02:48 +
> It's the way it is because people (in the early days) wanted a working
> configuration that was highly commented so that newcomers could read it
> and perhaps understand the way it worked. Perhaps this has turned into
> overkill?
No, t
On Wed, 16 Nov 2005, Yann Golanski wrote:
> You know, I think the same way... does that mean that I am a grumpy old
> man as well?...
No. You are a grumpy *young* man. :-)
--
Philip HazelUniversity of Cambridge Computing Service,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Cambridge, England. Phone: +
I think you have misunderstood me, I showed an example of the type of
simple config that "I would have found useful" when I first started
leaning to use Exim, and went on to say that once I had a working
config, no matter how clunky it was, it would not matter as long as I
was not running an op
Quoth Jason Meers on Wed, Nov 16, 2005 at 11:45:19 +
> I think you have misunderstood me, I showed an example of the type of
> simple config that "I would have found useful" when I first started
> leaning to use Exim, and went on to say that once I had a working
> config, no matter how clunk
Philip Hazel wrote:
On Tue, 15 Nov 2005, Jason Meers wrote:
1) A usable config, no matter how simple. The sample config is very thorough
but now 20 pages long.
The *default* configuration (it isn't a sample, it really works :-) is
672 lines long, it is true (your printer has 34 lines per
On 16/11/05, Philip Hazel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It's the way it is because people (in the early days) wanted a working
> configuration that was highly commented so that newcomers could read it
> and perhaps understand the way it worked. Perhaps this has turned into
> overkill?
If you don't
On Wed, 16 Nov 2005, Jason Meers wrote:
> I think you have misunderstood me, I showed an example of the type of simple
> config that "I would have found useful" when I first started leaning to use
> Exim, and went on to say that once I had a working config, no matter how
> clunky it was, it would
Philip Hazel wrote:
On Wed, 16 Nov 2005, Jason Meers wrote:
I have always said that I am the wrong person to write stuff about
"basic Exim" because I know too much. I only wrote the book because
nobody else seemed likely to do so. I would very much welcome
introductory material for beginners,
On Wed, Nov 16, 2005 at 11:45:19AM +, Jason Meers wrote:
> A new user doesn't *necessarily* need to know how to configure any of
> the following if they haven't got a working server to begin with:
>
> av_scanner
> mime decoding and content checking
I would say that one or other of these are
On Wednesday 16 November 2005 10:02, Philip Hazel wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Nov 2005, Jason Meers wrote:
> > 1) A usable config, no matter how simple. The sample config is very
> > thorough but now 20 pages long.
>
> The *default* configuration (it isn't a sample, it really works :-) is
> 672 lines long,
On Wed, Nov 16, 2005 at 02:35:10PM +, Philip Hazel wrote:
> > I am not asking for Exim to be dumbed down for the lowest common
> > denominator,
> > just pointing out that it is very hard to take in everything at once.
>
> Absolutely. Not only is Exim large and complicated, the whole Internet
A new user doesn't *necessarily* need to know how to configure any of
the following if they haven't got a working server to begin with:
av_scanner
mime decoding and content checking
>>> I would say that one or other of these are virtually required on
the >>> modern internet.
I am not excludi
On Wed, Nov 16, 2005 at 07:40:54PM +, Jason Meers wrote [and I've fixed
his quoting]:
[>I wrote:]
[>> Jason wrote:]
>>> A new user doesn't *necessarily* need to know how to configure any of
>>> the following if they haven't got a working server to begin with:
>>> av_scanner
>>> mime decoding
On Tue, 15 Nov 2005 17:21:14 +, Nigel Metheringham
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>If we did, my preference would be to start a new list - maybe
>exim-experts - and encourage the esoteric traffic to go there.
>Theoretically exim-dev could take on this role, although its meant to
>have a different p
On Thu, 2005-11-17 at 15:07 +0100, Marc Haber wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Nov 2005 17:21:14 +, Nigel Metheringham
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >If we did, my preference would be to start a new list - maybe
> >exim-experts - and encourage the esoteric traffic to go there.
> >Theoretically exim-dev cou
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005, Nigel Metheringham wrote:
> I'd like to find a better way of handling FAQ documentation which is
> easily searchable, can be kept up to date etc - ideas on this can be
> posted back into this thread.
My Bright Idea on that topic was the KWIC index that I generate for the
(no
Nigel Metheringham wrote:
I've been watching this with interest, but not contributing much (for
various personal reasons I've been pretty much out of circulation for 3
weeks and am now frantically catching up).
[snip]
However I'm not sure any sort of consensus in favour of a list split was
heard
>
> However I'm not sure any sort of consensus in favour of a list split was
> heard - in fact it seemed to me the drift was against this.
>
Having voiced earlier my support for splitting the list, I'd like to retract
that vote. I was persuaded by arguments of those who oppose the idea.
-a
--
Aa
It would seem that the majority of people are against splitting the
list. I have no problem with that.
I have no strong preferences for how we cater for new users or
converters just a desire that we do more to help them.
Anything to stop people giving up with Exim completely as I did and
dec
On 11/17/05 10:24 AM, "Jason Meers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It would seem that the majority of people are against splitting the
> list. I have no problem with that.
>
> I have no strong preferences for how we cater for new users or
> converters just a desire that we do more to help them.
>
On 11/17/05, Jason Meers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> It would seem that the majority of people are against splitting the
> list. I have no problem with that.
I think it is a much better idea to have a separate list. That way, those
who read the
beginners list know what they are in for and brin
On 11/15/05, Tony Finch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 15 Nov 2005, Fred Viles wrote:
> >
> > What I'm not clear on is just how a "new users list" would have
> > helped you. In what way are we thinking that answers on the proposed
> > list would differ from answers here? All I've got so far
at 2005-11-18 11:37 Jeremiah Foster wrote:
>
> To be frank, this list has scared off even some capable sysadmins and
> developers. Of all the lists I read, this is the most
> technical, and unwelcoming. It has its own culture and that culture is
> intolerant of ignorance to the point of rudeness.
Peter Velan wrote:
> I'm just lurking here (and very seldom ask for help) but IMO the
> statement "... that culture is intolerant of ignorance to the point of
> rudeness." is not true!
>
> I would put myself in the beginner class and despite some very technical
> discussions I got a lot of very h
James Davis wrote:
> I didn't find the online documentation too useful by itself but in
> combination with the book and the list it's much more useful.
Curious, one of the main reasons I got addicted to exim is the really
excellent Specification Document, besides Philip's, Nigel's, Tony's and
oth
> > To be frank, this list has scared off even some capable
> sysadmins and
> > developers. Of all the lists I read, this is the most
> technical, and
> > unwelcoming. It has its own culture and that culture is
> intolerant of
> > ignorance to the point of rudeness.
>
> No! I could not disag
On 18 Nov 2005 at 11:37, Jeremiah Foster wrote about
"Re: [exim] suggestion - exim-new-us":
|...
| But there are
| others who spew venom unneccessarily and removing them from contact with
| newer users would be a positive thing.
Without debating the extent to which that might be true, I'd lik
On Fri, 18 Nov 2005, Jeremiah Foster wrote:
> On 11/15/05, Tony Finch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, 15 Nov 2005, Fred Viles wrote:
> > >
> > > What I'm not clear on is just how a "new users list" would have
> > > helped you. In what way are we thinking that answers on the proposed
> >
ok, to put my oar in: I'm against list splitting. Some assorted reasons:
This list has not enough traffic. Splitting the list would lead into
splitting the community. And People will start double posting,
especially if the get no answer on the exim-novice list. And who do you
think will answer the
Marilyn Davis wrote:
BTW, oddly, Python email lists are always polite and patient way
beyond my patience. In fact, all the other lists I monitor are kinder
than this one. I don't know why exim would collect an impolite and
competitive culture. Philip is always very nice and doesn't engender
r
On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 10:04:56 +0100, Jeremiah Foster
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>This is a good idea. I think even Marc Haber (debian package maintainer)
>said that what exim lacks is a good
>tutorial with examples. I would help with this if work needs doing, I think
>this would really help.
Philip
On Fri, Nov 18, 2005 at 07:37:35PM +0100, Marc Haber wrote:
> And I am quite opposed to giving HOWTO-type examples because people
> will blindly cut&paste them without understand what they do.
I love HOWTOs, because they usually a) provide a solution if you just
need one, and b) they show ideas ex
On 11/18/05 10:20 AM, "Marc Sherman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I really wonder how Philip has managed to stay so pleasant in the face
> of this. :)
Philip's starting out as one of the world champion nice people certainly
helped. :)
The interesting thing is that he has stayed in that group.
I think, there's no need to split the list.
I'm surely a exim newbie, exim gracefully handles most of the job without my
help.
>From my point of view, the newbie problem is another (it's the second time I
joined the list to get help on specific topics- and I found help).
The list suffers from a w
Marc Haber wrote:
On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 10:04:56 +0100, Jeremiah Foster
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
This is a good idea. I think even Marc Haber (debian package maintainer)
said that what exim lacks is a good
tutorial with examples. I would help with this if work needs doing, I think
this would r
On Fri, 18 Nov 2005, Marc Sherman wrote:
> I really wonder how Philip has managed to stay so pleasant in the face of
> this. :)
By being older. Gotta conserve my waning energy... :-)
--
Philip HazelUniversity of Cambridge Computing Service,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Cambridge, England
On Nov 18, 2005, at 6:07 PM, Fred Viles wrote:
On 18 Nov 2005 at 11:37, Jeremiah Foster wrote about
"Re: [exim] suggestion - exim-new-us":
|...
| But there are
| others who spew venom unneccessarily and removing them from contact
with
| newer users would be a positive thing.
Without deb
On Nov 18, 2005, at 6:59 PM, Jakob Hirsch wrote:
And for the poeple thinking the people here are rude (at the risk of
seeming inpolite): This is ridiculous. I'd really like to see some
examples.
I appreciate your differing point of view, I would like to point you to
the mail archives however
After instigating all of this discussion earlier in the week I've been
encouraged, enraged and at some points I've got downright angry at some
of the responses and attitudes towards new users.
I think there are some points that _most_ would agree on that we may be
able to use as a basis for so
On 11/19/05 1:00 PM, "Jeremiah Foster" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I politely disagree. The point of this excellent peice of software is
> for people to use it. I appreciate that it is large and complex, but I
> see great good in more people being able to understand it. If exim4
> were the main M
On 11/19/05 4:22 PM, "Jason Meers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[Very good stuff snipped.]
> What does everyone else think?
Your summary is excellent.
One more thing is that we on the list should try very hard not to repeat
opinion-based technical arguments we've had here many times before.
[Tha
Jeremiah Foster wrote:
>> I'd really like to see some examples.
> I appreciate your differing point of view, I would like to point you
> to the mail archives however and ask you again if you feel that
> perhaps competent people have not been treated rather rudely.
Usually, the people making claim
On Nov 20, 2005, at 2:59 AM, John W. Baxter wrote:
[Very good stuff snipped.]
What does everyone else think?
Your summary is excellent.
I agree whole-heartedly!
Jeremiah Foster
--
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