On 30.04.2002 12:47 Uhr, Daniel Wolf wrote
> Here's a fast translation:
>
> With your assistant, one can in no way produce an image even only
> approximately comparable to a Henle score; but one could be led to this
> impression (by your assistant). One might be led to believe that we
> (the He
Here's a fast translation:
With your assistant, one can in no way produce an image even only
approximately comparable to a Henle score; but one could be led to this
impression (by your assistant). One might be led to believe that we
(the Henle Verlag) use Finale software, which applies to only a
I don't read German, so I have no clue what it says, but I think it is
safe to say that whatever a corporation states in March of 2001 is not
to be taken seriously in April of 2002.
Johannes Gebauer wrote:
> On 29.04.2002 22:31 Uhr, Jari Williamsson wrote
>
>
>>Johannes Gebauer writes:
>>
--Johannes Gebauer schreef:
...
>> So kann man mit Ihren Hilfestellungen
>> keineswegs ein auch nur annähernd vergleichbares Henle-Notenbild
>> produzieren; dieser Eindruck könnte aber entstehen.
Sounds rather arrogant to me...
_
Patrick Hubers
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Solve IT
Po
On 29.04.2002 22:31 Uhr, Jari Williamsson wrote
> Johannes Gebauer writes:
>
>> Well, Henle has not _moved_ to Finale, even if Coda claims this. Henle uses
>> a variety of software solutions, among them also Finale. To my knowledge
>> they also use their own system, called Amadeus, although it s
Johannes Gebauer writes:
> Well, Henle has not _moved_ to Finale, even if Coda claims this. Henle uses
> a variety of software solutions, among them also Finale. To my knowledge
> they also use their own system, called Amadeus, although it seems that this
> is no longer being developed and not fr
Johannes Gebauer writes:
> One example that comes immediately to mind is the space between the
> clef/key/meter area of a system and the first note. Henle in their
> traditional look always had more space than Finale would allow (the problem
> is that this particular space cannot be set, it is al
On 29 Apr 2002, at 22:02, Johannes Gebauer wrote:
> On 29.04.2002 19:59 Uhr, David W. Fenton wrote
>
> > On 29 Apr 2002, at 18:26, Jari Williamsson wrote:
> >
> >> Johannes Gebauer writes:
> >>
> >>> Whether those parts are or will ever be available I have no idea. The score
> >>> certainly wi
On 29.04.2002 19:59 Uhr, David W. Fenton wrote
> On 29 Apr 2002, at 18:26, Jari Williamsson wrote:
>
>> Johannes Gebauer writes:
>>
>>> Whether those parts are or will ever be available I have no idea. The score
>>> certainly will be. I did not check, however, whether the score was done in
>>>
On 29.04.2002 18:39 Uhr, Linda Worsley wrote
>>
>> Fact is that Henle in their other scores do some things that cannot possibly
>> be done in Finale,
>
> Johannes, you have mentioned this before. If at all possible, can
> you give us examples? I'm intensely curious!
One example that comes im
On 29.04.2002 18:26 Uhr, Jari Williamsson wrote
> Johannes Gebauer writes:
>
>> Whether those parts are or will ever be available I have no idea. The score
>> certainly will be. I did not check, however, whether the score was done in
>> Finale, I haven't seen it.
>
> Why is that particular scor
On Monday, April 29, 2002, at 09:26 AM, Jari Williamsson wrote:
> Johannes Gebauer writes:
>> Whether those parts are or will ever be available I have no
>> idea. The score
>> certainly will be. I did not check, however, whether the score
>> was done in
>> Finale, I haven't seen it.
> Why is
On 29 Apr 2002, at 18:26, Jari Williamsson wrote:
> Johannes Gebauer writes:
>
> > Whether those parts are or will ever be available I have no idea. The score
> > certainly will be. I did not check, however, whether the score was done in
> > Finale, I haven't seen it.
>
> Why is that particular
>
>Fact is that Henle in their other scores do some things that cannot possibly
>be done in Finale,
Johannes, you have mentioned this before. If at all possible, can
you give us examples? I'm intensely curious!
Thanks!
Linda
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Finale mailing list
Johannes Gebauer writes:
> Whether those parts are or will ever be available I have no idea. The score
> certainly will be. I did not check, however, whether the score was done in
> Finale, I haven't seen it.
Why is that particular score so important? It has been announced that
Henle is moving
On 29.04.2002 16:34 Uhr, Philip Aker wrote
> On Monday, April 29, 2002, at 05:26 AM, Johannes Gebauer wrote:
>
>> To bring up my favourite, Henle, even they use software, and
>> their last hand-engraver has now retired. They actually had
>> their own software developed although as far as I know
On Monday, April 29, 2002, at 05:26 AM, Johannes Gebauer wrote:
> To bring up my favourite, Henle, even they use software, and
> their last hand-engraver has now retired. They actually had
> their own software developed although as far as I know they do
> use Finale on some smaller projects (
--Jari Williamsson schreef:
>> However, the competition I was thinking about is a little different. I
>> will probably start doing some research and put something up on my site
>> in the next few weeks (if time allows), and as soon as that has happened
>> I'll be looking for participants.
>
> Wh
Johannes Gebauer writes:
> Definitely a good idea, but an different one from my idea. I do actually
> want to see the software compared, though mostly in terms of what it can do,
> and not so much whether the way it does things is the best.
I still don't see the point here. Finale can notate _an
On 29.04.2002 14:13 Uhr, Jari Williamsson wrote
>> (Others may well be interested in comparing engraving skills in a
>> single-program competition format, but I'm not, and I think that's exactly >
>> the sort of thing the individual software manufacturers ought to be
>> organizing).
>
> I don't
On 29.04.2002 14:06 Uhr, Patrick Hubers wrote
> Lack of time, mostly. I can do some nice things with Finale and I know a
> few things about engraving, but I have just enough time to spend with it to
> keep my skills from getting worse. There are people on this list far better
> qualified than I a
Daniel Wolf wrote:
> I would really like to see a good competition between notation programs.
> There is plenty of anecdotal information comparing the output of the
> various programs, but very little in the way of concrete examples. As I
> see it, the main issue here is "what program should I
Daniel Wolf writes:
> I would really like to see a good competition between notation programs.
> There is plenty of anecdotal information comparing the output of the
> various programs, but very little in the way of concrete examples. As I
> see it, the main issue here is "what program should I
--Johannes Gebauer schreef:
>> (not that I would dare to be in the contest myself...).
>
> Why not?
Lack of time, mostly. I can do some nice things with Finale and I know a
few things about engraving, but I have just enough time to spend with it to
keep my skills from getting worse. There are
I would really like to see a good competition between notation programs.
There is plenty of anecdotal information comparing the output of the
various programs, but very little in the way of concrete examples. As I
see it, the main issue here is "what program should I buy?". (Others
may well be
On 29.04.2002 11:58 Uhr, David H. Bailey wrote
> Not necessarily -- if it is as you say "with a certain piece of software
> rather than another" then for the competition to be about the software
> then the same engravers need to use both pieces of software being
> compared and then we can see wha
Not necessarily -- if it is as you say "with a certain piece of software
rather than another" then for the competition to be about the software
then the same engravers need to use both pieces of software being
compared and then we can see what each engraver can do with both pieces
of software
On 29.04.2002 10:09 Uhr, d. collins wrote
> David H. Bailey écrit:
>> So it isn't about the software after all, but about what the engraver can do.
>
> ... with a certain piece of software rather than another.
Which I think pretty much sums it up. There is no objective way to compare
notation s
On 29.04.2002 0:42 Uhr, David W. Fenton wrote
> What about having them submit the file before the plugins and after, with
> an accounting of how much time was spent using the plugin to make the
> file better?
>
> Wouldn't that be incredibly useful information?
It would be useful, but will make
On 28.04.2002 22:21 Uhr, d. collins wrote
> David H. Bailey écrit:
>> One would have to depend upon the integrity of the engravers to live up to
>> the constraints of the competition. I would hope that would not be an issue.
>
> I think it would be asking quite a bit from them to spend hours do
I haven't even looked because I don't use the other program. I am not
interested in what it can and cannot do. I don't see how there can be a
meaningful comparison between them because they are so vastly different.
I say, let the entrants use any and all plug-ins, any and all fonts, and
let
Isn't plate engraving the art we are all aspiring to reproduce with the
software? Yes I think professional plate engravers (if there are any of
them left) could do a better job than software.
d. collins wrote:
> David H. Bailey écrit:
>
>> They could simply get a plate-engraver to do the wh
On 28 Apr 2002, at 22:21, d. collins wrote:
> David H. Bailey écrit:
> >One would have to depend upon the integrity of the engravers to live up to
> >the constraints of the competition. I would hope that would not be an issue.
>
> I think it would be asking quite a bit from them to spend hours
David H. Bailey writes:
> Then it becomes a competition of engravers and not software. So a
> "souped-up" version of Finale on plug-in steroids is going to go up
> against an out-of-the-box Sibelius (because that is the only way that
> program can be used). Sounds fair to me. Not.
Go ahead
I would think that time could be controlled to the extent that the
engraving profession is filled only with truly honorable people who
wouldn't cheat just to gain a point or two in a competition.
If we are worrying about people not being honest in the plug-ins used or
the amount of time spent
One would have to depend upon the integrity of the engravers to live up
to the constraints of the competition. I would hope that would not be
an issue.
d. collins wrote:
> David H. Bailey écrit:
>
>> With all the ones which come with and the others which I have
>> downloaded I can't remem
Actually, not. A fair and valid competition of software only would be
to find some musicians with computer competence, but with no exposure to
notation software, give them each a shrink-wrapped version of one of the
programs and then have an independent panel of judges observe the whole
proce
Then it becomes a competition of engravers and not software. So a
"souped-up" version of Finale on plug-in steroids is going to go up
against an out-of-the-box Sibelius (because that is the only way that
program can be used). Sounds fair to me. Not.
And since you would include any plug-ins a
With all the ones which come with and the others which I have downloaded
I can't remember anymore which come with Finale and which don't. For a
competition of the software, any plug-ins which ship with the program
should be allowed and any others shouldn't be allowed.
Jari Williamsson wrote
> But if it is truly a competition between software and NOT users, then
> all included software packages should be used ONLY as they come out of
> the box, with all tweakings done by the users.
If users are tweaking then the results reflect the skill of different users,
not different software.
> And then it becomes a competition between engravers rather than a
> competition between engraving software.
>
> Which is fine, if that is what is desired, but it should be made clear
> what type of competition this would be before it begins.
Yes, it should be made clear. But I do not think that
On 28.04.2002 12:54 Uhr, David H. Bailey wrote
> But if it is truly a competition between software and NOT users, then
> all included software packages should be used ONLY as they come out of
> the box, with all tweakings done by the users. And if Sibelius can
> achieve a 95% emulation of a majo
On 28.04.2002 12:54 Uhr, David H. Bailey wrote
> In a true test of the software, yes I would rule out additional
> plug-ins, unless all programs in the competition allow plug-ins. And
> then I would restrict it to only those plug-ins which ship with the
> programs.
>
> If Sibelius allows tweaki
David H. Bailey writes:
> If Sibelius allows tweaking beams easily out of the box with no
> additional downloads (think of the millions of potential Finale users
> who may be totally unaware of Robert's fine plug-in) then it deserves to
> win in that category.
I must be missing something here
d. collins wrote:
> David H. Bailey écrit:
>
>> Ideally, if this is to be a competition of software, there would be
>> people using the competing software as it comes out of the box,
>> changing those aspects of engraving only which require no additional
>> purchases or downloads.
>
>
> T
d. collins wrote:
> David W. Fenton écrit:
>
>> I think there's a major issue unresolved here:
>>
>> - Is this an engraving competition or an engraving software competition?
>>
>> That is, is the goal to find the best engraving or to find the best
>> engraving software?
>>
>> If the former, fo
Richard Yates wrote:
> David Fenton wrote:
>
>>I think there's a major issue unresolved here:
>>
>
> Yes, at least one.
>
>
>>- Is this an engraving competition or an engraving software competition?
>>
>>That is, is the goal to find the best engraving or to find the best
>>engraving softwar
On 28.04.2002 10:40 Uhr, d. collins wrote
> Johannes Gebauer écrit:
>> Dennis, I think you are now contradicting yourself: Either you allow any
>> fonts to be used as music fonts, in that case the fact whether a certain
>> software package comes with several different, good looking fonts, or with
On 28.04.2002 8:38 Uhr, d. collins wrote
> Why limit the fonts to defaults, when you're not going to limit the other
> aspects: line thickness, slurs, ties, stems, beaming, spacing, margins,
> etc. to the defaults? Even if this is a competition between different
> programs, the idea is getting th
On 27 Apr 2002, at 18:20, Richard Yates wrote:
> David Fenton wrote:
> > I think there's a major issue unresolved here:
>
> Yes, at least one.
>
> > - Is this an engraving competition or an engraving software competition?
> >
> > That is, is the goal to find the best engraving or to find the be
David Fenton wrote:
> I think there's a major issue unresolved here:
Yes, at least one.
> - Is this an engraving competition or an engraving software competition?
>
> That is, is the goal to find the best engraving or to find the best
> engraving software?
>
> If the former, fonts should be enti
On 27 Apr 2002, at 14:53, d. collins wrote:
> Johannes Gebauer écrit:
> > > But then what about text fonts? This was also a problem with the Score
> > > competition. If you have lyrics, a title, etc. Will you tell everyone to
> > > use Times?
> >
> >Perhaps? What do you think?
>
> Being very fon
Johannes wrote:
[snip]
> 2) The set pieces should be chosen from 18th to early 20th century, I have
> my doubts that including contemporary or experimental notation will say
> anything about the software, such music is always likely to favour certain
> software, while another set piece could ha
On 27.04.2002 17:38 Uhr, d. collins wrote
> Johannes Gebauer écrit:
>> It depends very much whether this is more a test of notation software or
>> more a competition between engravers. I'll have to think about this.
>
> Well, I think you'll have a hard time finding competitors if it's between
>
On 27.04.2002 17:09 Uhr, Patrick Hubers wrote
> (not that I would dare to be in the contest myself...).
Why not?
Johannes
--
http://www.musikmanufaktur.com
http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de
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Finale mailing list
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--Johannes Gebauer schreef:
...
>> encourage typographical creativity and let people use whatever fonts
>> they want, including their own, since you'll only be judging the end
>> result, and not impose a font as dull and bland as Times.
>
> It depends very much whether this is more a test of nota
On 27.04.2002 14:53 Uhr, d. collins wrote
> Being very fond of typography, fonts, etc., I would find it a shame, at
> least for the "free" entries, not to be able to use any music font and text
> font one finds suitable for the piece in question. This is an important
> aspect of musical engraving
On 27.04.2002 12:27 Uhr, d. collins wrote
> Johannes Gebauer écrit:
>> The answer can only be, use only the standard fonts the app comes with. The
>> jury should be informed of this fact, and may judge the general look of the
>> fonts, but not the closeness to the set pieces.
>
> But then what a
On 27.04.2002 11:48 Uhr, d. collins wrote
> Johannes Gebauer écrit:
>> What do others think about such a plan?
>
> I sent a certain number of comments privately, but I think the question of
> the fonts raised by Jari is most important, both music fonts and text
> fonts. The house style, or rathe
On 27.04.2002 1:02 Uhr, Jari Williamsson wrote
> Well, generally I _don't_ like the idea. Any such composition would only
> reach a small subset of users of a specific program. And an engraver who
> has a huge set of music fonts (and perhaps also programs like
> Phontographer) at his/her disposal
> Due to the discussion about Igor I got reminded again of something that
I'd
> like to initiate, though I cannot do it on my own.
>
> Recently there was a kind of competition between different computer
> engravers using different software
> Here is what I propose, and I hope more people will
On 26.4.2002 22:34, "Johannes Gebauer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Due to the discussion about Igor I got reminded again of something that I'd
> like to initiate, though I cannot do it on my own.
>
> Recently there was a kind of competition between different computer
> engravers using different
Johannes Gebauer writes:
> Recently there was a kind of competition between different computer
> engravers using different software. The competition was originally done as a
> promotion for Sibelius, as far as I remember, and the results were quickly
> withdrawn when they weren't so favourable fo
Due to the discussion about Igor I got reminded again of something that I'd
like to initiate, though I cannot do it on my own.
Recently there was a kind of competition between different computer
engravers using different software. The competition was originally done as a
promotion for Sibelius, a
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