Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

Thank you Björn, may have overlooked it otherwise. and thank you, Sue :-) dirk On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 11:01 PM, Bjoern Hoehrmann wrote: > * Dirk Franke wrote: > >the cultural homogenous group of Germans tends to discuss in German. So to > >give you a short update on what is happening: > > > >

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

thank you! h Am 29.10.2011 13:31, schrieb FT2: > Having checked the original blog > post, > I think it's either a rare exception of poorly chosen wording, or shows a > judgment within WMF that I can't agree with. > > I remember

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 10:04 PM, Kim Bruning wrote: > On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 03:36:18PM -0700, Erik Moeller wrote: >> >> Making it easy for editors to say, based on normal editorial judgment >> and established practices in their project, "Hey, reader, there's >> something here you might not want

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

Having checked the original blog post, I think it's either a rare exception of poorly chosen wording, or shows a judgment within WMF that I can't agree with. I remember when the director of featured articles on enwiki scrupulousl

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

* Dirk Franke wrote: >the cultural homogenous group of Germans tends to discuss in German. So to >give you a short update on what is happening: > >A White Bag protest movement against the image filter is forming. > >And people who talked privately about a fork for some time, start to think >and say

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 08:49:42AM +0200, Nikola Smolenski wrote: > > It is my understanding that parental software is often too overarching > or otherwise inadequate. ... and this despite (very likely) having a larger budget than the foundation ;-) There's a reason the software is inadequate,

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 03:13:22PM -0700, Erik Moeller wrote: > On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 2:51 PM, Tobias Oelgarte > wrote: > > What approaches do you have in mind, that would empower the editors and > > the readers, aside from an hide/show all solution? > > 1) Add a "collapsible" [*] parameter to

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

On 28 October 2011 20:08, Kim Bruning wrote: > I have the impression that most opposition comes from people with an IT > background. That is to say, people who have tried to figure it out, and have > had > some trouble finding a solution. (I may be biased, since that's my own > personal > backg

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 10:57:59AM +1100, Billinghurst wrote: > I do wish that this discussion can just move to implementation. This is about > what I get to filter for what I get to see, or when I get to see it. I have > had > enough of other people believing that they get to make their choices

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 03:36:18PM -0700, Erik Moeller wrote: > > Making it easy for editors to say, based on normal editorial judgment > and established practices in their project, "Hey, reader, there's > something here you might not want to see ... and BTW, would you like > to remember that cho

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

And another one, sorry, I cannot find the mail in which it was proposed. But generally I think a hide/show-all solution would be acceptable to everybode. There is still a lot of bad blood going around. And it would certainly be easier to implement it referring to technical reasons of low bandwith,

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

> With that in mind, I would humbly propose that we kill with fire at > this point the idea of a category-based image filtering system. > > +1 d/sp ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ma

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

Hi Eric, thanks for your answers. For me they were really helpful, and I hope they can lead to some understanding- Some of these ideas are explored here: > > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image_filter_referendum/Next_steps/en#Potential_models_for_hiding_images > > Is there a similar brainstormin

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

* Nikola Smolenski wrote: >Who is this "we" you are talking about? No one is going to force anyone >to categorize images. If some people want to categorize images, and if >their effort turns out to be in vain, again that is Their Problem and >not Your Problem. When your filtering or categorization

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

Erik Moeller wrote: > On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 2:56 PM, David Gerard wrote: >> On 22 October 2011 22:51, Tobias Oelgarte >> And, in detail, why is a hide/show all solution inadequate? What is >> the use case this does not serve? > > Clearly Hebrew and Arabic Wikipedia found a "show/hide all" solut

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

* Erik Moeller wrote: >With that said, I also think it's important to remember that Sue has >explicitly affirmed that the development of any technical solution >would be done in partnership with the community, including people >who've expressed strong opposition to what's been discussed to date. T

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

Erik Moeller wrote: > With that said, I also think it's important to remember that Sue has > explicitly affirmed that the development of any technical solution > would be done in partnership with the community, including people > who've expressed strong opposition to what's been discussed to date.

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

David Gerard wrote: > On 22 October 2011 23:36, Erik Moeller wrote: >> With that said, the mobile site already has a generic "Disable images" >> view and something similar would definitely make sense on the main >> site as well. > > I just tried it. It lacks the "click to show" feature. Add that

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

Am 23.10.2011 19:32, schrieb Ilario Valdelli: > On 23.10.2011 19:05, Tobias Oelgarte wrote: The German poll made clear, that not any category based filter will be allowed, since category based filtering is unavoidably non-neutral and a censorship tool. >>> Who the hell are you to for

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

On 23.10.2011 19:05, Tobias Oelgarte wrote: > >>> The German poll made clear, that not any category based filter will be >>> allowed, since category based filtering is unavoidably non-neutral and a >>> censorship tool. >> Who the hell are you to forbid me or allow me to use a piece of >> software?

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

On 23/10/11 16:24, Andrew Garrett wrote: > On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 8:27 AM, David Gerard wrote: >> A neutral all-or-nothing image filter would not have such side effects >> (and would also neatly help low bandwidth usage). > It would also make the project useless. I don't want to see the 0.01% > (

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

Am 23.10.2011 17:24, schrieb Andrew Garrett: > On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 8:27 AM, David Gerard wrote: >> A neutral all-or-nothing image filter would not have such side effects >> (and would also neatly help low bandwidth usage). > It would also make the project useless. I don't want to see the 0.01%

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

Am 23.10.2011 17:19, schrieb Nikola Smolenski: > On Sun, 2011-10-23 at 10:31 +0200, Tobias Oelgarte wrote: >> Am 23.10.2011 08:49, schrieb Nikola Smolenski: >>> On Sat, 2011-10-22 at 23:35 +0200, Tobias Oelgarte wrote: Why? Because it is against the basic rules of the project. It is inten

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 11:50 AM, Fae wrote: > > A cookie-based "hide all images"/"show all images" toggle clearly > > visible in the toolbar at the top of pages. together with > > ... > > I'd be interested in any arguments that might be made against such a > > proposal. > > How about the fact th

[Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

> From: Erik Moeller > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] > > > The literal translation of what was being voted on: > > "Pers?nliche Bildfilter > (Filter, die illustrierende Dateien anhand von > Kategorien der Wikipedia verbergen und vom Leser an- und abgeschaltet > werden k?nnen, vgl. de

[Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

> Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 12:58:03 -0700 > From: Erik Moeller > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] > > The vote in German Wikipedia, and most of the discussions to > date, have focused on the specific ideas and mock-ups that > were presented as part of the referendum. Erik, You are wrong. The vot

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 8:27 AM, David Gerard wrote: > A neutral all-or-nothing image filter would not have such side effects > (and would also neatly help low bandwidth usage). It would also make the project useless. I don't want to see the 0.01% (yes, rhetorical statistics again) images of medi

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

On Sun, 2011-10-23 at 10:31 +0200, Tobias Oelgarte wrote: > Am 23.10.2011 08:49, schrieb Nikola Smolenski: > > On Sat, 2011-10-22 at 23:35 +0200, Tobias Oelgarte wrote: > >> Why? Because it is against the basic rules of the project. It is > >> intended to discriminate content. To judge about it and

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

On 23 October 2011 12:38, David Gerard wrote: > On 23 October 2011 12:30, Fae wrote: ... >> PS "clear failure" looks like an opinion, not a statement of fact. >> Presumably this relates to an official position of the WMF? > > An opinion held by several staff on the matter, including the > Executi

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

On 23 October 2011 12:30, Fae wrote: > PS "clear failure" looks like an opinion, not a statement of fact. > Presumably this relates to an official position of the WMF? An opinion held by several staff on the matter, including the Executive Director. I consider this significant, you may not. -

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

On 23 October 2011 12:02, David Gerard wrote: > On 23 October 2011 11:50, Fae wrote: > The Foundation considers de:wp's careful and thoughtful decision to > put [[:de:vulva]] on the front page of de:wp with a picture was a > clear failure of community judgement sufficient to justify the > imposi

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

On 23 October 2011 11:50, Fae wrote: > How about the fact that newspaper websites regularly include shocking > images of violence and death on their main pages and have few > complaints as they rely on editorial control rather than built-in > software tricks? This is a solution looking for a prob

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

> A cookie-based "hide all images"/"show all images" toggle clearly > visible in the toolbar at the top of pages. together with > ... > I'd be interested in any arguments that might be made against such a > proposal. How about the fact that newspaper websites regularly include shocking images of v

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

On 22/10/11 22:56, David Gerard wrote: > On 22 October 2011 22:51, Tobias Oelgarte > wrote: > >> What approaches do you have in mind, that would empower the editors and >> the readers, aside from an hide/show all solution? > > And, in detail, why is a hide/show all solution inadequate? What is >

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

On 23 October 2011 10:01, teun spaans wrote: > I completely agree :) So you can address my answer, even as Nikola didn't quite. - d. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/lis

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

I completely agree :) On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 11:23 PM, Nikola Smolenski wrote: > On Sat, 2011-10-22 at 21:16 +0100, David Gerard wrote: > > "Both the opinion poll itself and its proposal were accepted. In > > contrary to the decision of the Board of Trustees of the Wikimedia > > Foundation, pers

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

Am 23.10.2011 08:49, schrieb Nikola Smolenski: > On Sat, 2011-10-22 at 23:35 +0200, Tobias Oelgarte wrote: >> Why? Because it is against the basic rules of the project. It is >> intended to discriminate content. To judge about it and to represent you > No, it is intended to let people discriminate

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

Am 23.10.2011 08:30, schrieb Nikola Smolenski: > On Sat, 2011-10-22 at 22:56 +0100, David Gerard wrote: >> And, in detail, why is a hide/show all solution inadequate? What is >> the use case this does not serve? > Are you even trying to pretend to be serious? Use case: me reading an > article. > >

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

On Sat, 2011-10-22 at 23:35 +0200, Tobias Oelgarte wrote: > Am 22.10.2011 23:23, schrieb Nikola Smolenski: > > On Sat, 2011-10-22 at 21:16 +0100, David Gerard wrote: > >> "Both the opinion poll itself and its proposal were accepted. In > >> contrary to the decision of the Board of Trustees of the W

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

On Sat, 2011-10-22 at 22:56 +0100, David Gerard wrote: > And, in detail, why is a hide/show all solution inadequate? What is > the use case this does not serve? Are you even trying to pretend to be serious? Use case: me reading an article. It is my impression that you are pushing for this hide/sh

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

On Sat, 2011-10-22 at 22:27 +0100, David Gerard wrote: > On 22 October 2011 22:23, Nikola Smolenski wrote: > > I wanted to say this for a long time, and now seems like a good > > opportunity. I see this as a tyranny of the majority. I understand that > > a large majority of German Wikipedia editor

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

Am 23.10.2011 02:00, schrieb Erik Moeller: > On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 4:14 PM, Tobias Oelgarte > wrote: >> Isn't that the same as putting some images inside the category >> "inappropriate content"? Will it not leave the impression to the reader >> that "we" think that this is something not anybody

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

Am 23.10.2011 01:57, schrieb Billinghurst: > On 22 Oct 2011 at 15:36, Erik Moeller wrote: > >> On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 2:56 PM, David Gerard wrote: >>> On 22 October 2011 22:51, Tobias Oelgarte >>> And, in detail, why is a hide/show all solution inadequate? What is >>> the use case this does not s

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 4:14 PM, Tobias Oelgarte wrote: > Isn't that the same as putting some images inside the category > "inappropriate content"? Will it not leave the impression to the reader > that "we" think that this is something not anybody should see? Can it be > easily used by providers t

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

On 22 Oct 2011 at 15:36, Erik Moeller wrote: > On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 2:56 PM, David Gerard wrote: > > On 22 October 2011 22:51, Tobias Oelgarte > > And, in detail, why is a hide/show all solution inadequate? What is > > the use case this does not serve? > > A show/hide all images function is l

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

Am 23.10.2011 00:13, schrieb Erik Moeller: > On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 2:51 PM, Tobias Oelgarte > wrote: >> What approaches do you have in mind, that would empower the editors and >> the readers, aside from an hide/show all solution? > 1) Add a "collapsible" [*] parameter to the File: syntax, e.g.

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

On 22 October 2011 23:36, Erik Moeller wrote: > A show/hide all images function is likely too drastic to serve some of > these use cases well. So for example, if you're at work, you might not > want to have autofellatio on your screen by accident, but you'd be > annoyed at having to un-hide a fab

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 2:56 PM, David Gerard wrote: > On 22 October 2011 22:51, Tobias Oelgarte > And, in detail, why is a hide/show all solution inadequate? What is > the use case this does not serve? Clearly Hebrew and Arabic Wikipedia found a "show/hide all" solution inadequate. Are folks fro

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 2:51 PM, Tobias Oelgarte wrote: > What approaches do you have in mind, that would empower the editors and > the readers, aside from an hide/show all solution? 1) Add a "collapsible" [*] parameter to the File: syntax, e.g. [[File:Lemonparty.jpg|collapsible]]. 2) When presen

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

On 22 October 2011 22:51, Tobias Oelgarte wrote: > What approaches do you have in mind, that would empower the editors and > the readers, aside from an hide/show all solution? And, in detail, why is a hide/show all solution inadequate? What is the use case this does not serve? The board have n

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

Am 22.10.2011 23:44, schrieb Erik Moeller: > On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 1:50 PM, Tobias Oelgarte > wrote: >> No one said it would be evil. But since we already have working >> solutions for this projects, why do we need another, now global, >> solution, based on categories? Thats when it becomes hai

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 1:50 PM, Tobias Oelgarte wrote: > No one said it would be evil. But since we already have working > solutions for this projects, why do we need another, now global, > solution, based on categories? Thats when it becomes hairy. The Board of Trustees didn't pass a resolution

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

Am 22.10.2011 23:23, schrieb Nikola Smolenski: > On Sat, 2011-10-22 at 21:16 +0100, David Gerard wrote: >> "Both the opinion poll itself and its proposal were accepted. In >> contrary to the decision of the Board of Trustees of the Wikimedia >> Foundation, personal image filters should not be intro

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 8:58 PM, Erik Moeller wrote: > On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 10:07 AM, Dirk Franke > wrote: > > And people who talked privately about a fork for some time, start to > think > > and say it loud. > > Thanks for the update, Dirk. I think it's good that people are > seriously discu

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

On 22 October 2011 22:23, Nikola Smolenski wrote: > I wanted to say this for a long time, and now seems like a good > opportunity. I see this as a tyranny of the majority. I understand that > a large majority of German Wikipedia editors are against the filter. But > even if 99.99% of editors are

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

On Sat, 2011-10-22 at 21:16 +0100, David Gerard wrote: > "Both the opinion poll itself and its proposal were accepted. In > contrary to the decision of the Board of Trustees of the Wikimedia > Foundation, personal image filters should not be introduced in > German-speaking wikipedia and categories

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

Am 22.10.2011 22:31, schrieb Erik Moeller: > > What am I proposing, Jussi-Ville? So far, the only material proposal > I've made as part of this debate is here: > > http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2011-September/069077.html > > And, I don't think you're being accurate, historically

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

Am 22.10.2011 22:21, schrieb Erik Moeller: > On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 1:16 PM, David Gerard wrote: >> This would appear to indicate the opposition is to *any* personal >> image filter per the Board resolution, and the category-based proposal >> additionally as an example of such rather than as the

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

Am 22.10.2011 22:16, schrieb David Gerard: > Unless nuances of the translation are inaccurate - is this the case? > Do you see wiggle room in the original German phrasing? There is no room for interpretation. It clearly says that no category based filtering of any illustrative media will be accepte

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 1:13 PM, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen wrote: > There has always been a consensus that what you are > proposing is evil and against what we as a non-profit free content > site stand for. What am I proposing, Jussi-Ville? So far, the only material proposal I've made as part of this

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 1:16 PM, David Gerard wrote: > This would appear to indicate the opposition is to *any* personal > image filter per the Board resolution, and the category-based proposal > additionally as an example of such rather than as the main topic of > the vote. I think that says "sho

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

On 22 October 2011 20:58, Erik Moeller wrote: > If not, would > you be interested in organizing some community discussion on whether > there are solutions within the scope of the resolution that the dewiki > community would find acceptable, or whether the prevailing view is > that the resolution

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 10:58 PM, Erik Moeller wrote: > On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 10:07 AM, Dirk Franke > wrote: >> And people who talked privately about a fork for some time, start to think >> and say it loud. > > Thanks for the update, Dirk. I think it's good that people are > seriously discussin

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

Why should we open a brain storming section to think about something that is seen as unacceptable in the first way? What is left is a simple "No Images/All Images" solution. Anything else could not be justified. You would have to respect this points: * categorization should not be influenced by

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 10:07 AM, Dirk Franke wrote: > And people who talked privately about a fork for some time, start to think > and say it loud. Thanks for the update, Dirk. I think it's good that people are seriously discussing what it would mean to fork and how it would be done. Forking the

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

If something is useful or not, shouldn't be the question. Alt least the WMF seams to see it that way, because it is very doubtful that the image filter is useful for the project, for its goals, growth and development. I would invite the Board to view the movie "Schoolbreak Special: The Day They

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

Lets just disable the filter for the german wikipedia and make the decisions wiki per wiki. Ebe123 On 11-10-22 3:52 PM, "emijrp" wrote: > So, we are going to have virtually two cloned German Wikipedias, one with > image filter extension enabled and other disabled. Not very useful, but it > is

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

So, we are going to have virtually two cloned German Wikipedias, one with image filter extension enabled and other disabled. Not very useful, but it is your choice. I hope you enable the Semantic MediaWiki extension in the new fork. Good luck. 2011/10/22 Dirk Franke > Dear Mailinglists, > > th

[Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

Dear Mailinglists, the cultural homogenous group of Germans tends to discuss in German. So to give you a short update on what is happening: A White Bag protest movement against the image filter is forming. And people who talked privately about a fork for some time, start to think and say it loud