Hi Roland, Happy Holidays. Thank you for your response and for accepting the fairness of my question. That was prompted by the two-group 'comparison' in your extended family that you voluntarily wrote about.
Yet, I am surprised by your hesitancy to provide full disclosure after opening the two avenues among your cousins. If the children have already made the right decision (and I have no doubt about it), what is the issue of privacy? Is it private to even tell us the proportion (approximate) of how many are married outside the Goan community? As you know, I do not know you at all, and I am not asking for their names and addresses. In fact your hesitancy to share this information, raises many questions about YOUR attitudes and claim of "caste-less, liberal and forward looking cousins" and the maintenance of their 'Goan identity'. IMO, when one suggest what Goans should do - perhaps for the good of themselves and their community - the issue comes up: What has been the experience of those who have traveled the path? ... if they have truly traveled that path? Have you or the cousins married up or down the caste? If Goans are truly "caste-less, liberal and forward looking", the distribution of their married partners would likely be similar to population distribution of these caste. So please understand my curiosity if TRULY, 'the rubber meets the road' among the "caste-less, liberal and forward looking" Goans? I do not accept a vertical caste stratification. I view Goan caste / social stratification rather as occupational guilds similar to medieval and modern times. That is exactly why the term .... Mahar or Chamar or Sonna etc. Other societies have stratified using other characters - Scottish highlanders and Lowlanders depending if they live in the mountains (grazing sheep) or in the lowland (tilling fields and in commerce). Historically both these groups were antagonistic to each other .... till the English came. They encouraged both groups to join the Scottish regiments instead of fighting each other or slaughtering the English. Those wanting a more intellectual view of the caste system (rather than rabble rousing) may want to read the Scottish tradition - some of it seen in present Scottish Diaspora society. See below from Wikepedia. Back to your post. Your ex-Indian cousins, (assuming in Canada) seem to not meet your description of "Goan children in advanced countries". (please see below). The fact that you chose to make a personal attack is unfortunate and suggest I may have nicked your armor. As I have said, the few vocal pseudo-anti-casteists who preach to other Goans, have their kids married to White Caucasians. I have absolute no problem with that, except they are not in the ideal situation to be lecturing to other Goans, how they should proceed to select their Goans partners. To me, someone (including Cornel) who has 'walked the talk' on this issue is more creditable and honest ... and I encourage full disclosure. In the interest of full disclosure, neither my wife nor I have suggested to anybody any potential marriage partners (except to our daughter). I have been requested by many including Indian and white Americans to help. I consider individuals who introduce people (soirik) as good social workers. Without their services, an individual, family and community would have a more difficult time. My wife and I have never opined on the merits of who, why or how others have chosen their partners. To us that intimate bond is a personal issue; for it is them that have to live their lives together. My good wishes and blessings are on the young couple. Lest you or the readers get carried away with how things are done in "advanced countries", you may want to see the movie "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" (Greeks in USA) or "Bend it like Beckham" (Indians in UK). This very vividly displays the role of parents, family, relations and society. Perhaps the Goan community can learn from them. In the interest of full disclosure, as in the Greek wedding, like the father of the bride (but without the crying), I frequently say, "What have I done to deserve this?" - Two lovely grand-daughters, daughter and Goan son-in-law. He has a Masters in Computer Engineering from Berkeley and a Bostonian caste termed - MBA-HBS (Harvard Business School), with a hobby for gourmet cooking. And we went about this the traditional way - which I would recommend to anybody ... and wish them luck too. Mamma Lawrence was not sleeping at the switch.:=)) This supurlo Goenkar's caste / occupational grouping is AAPI - ASTRO. (American Association of Physicians of India - American Society for Therapeutic Radiology and Oncology) You can have the last word! Once again Happy Holidays to you and other Goanetters. Kind Regards, GL -------------- Roland Francis wrote: Gilbert, Since most of your questions are fair, I have no problem in answering them. I prefer my caste-less and liberal cousins because: As parents they make no effort to marry off their children, whether it is to Sudras, Dalits Bamons, white Caucasians or anybody else. It is the children who pick and choose whom they are to marry and I know those children well enough to say they end up with spouses based on criteria other than pigmentation and family caste. To ask for further full disclosure would be violating someone else's privacy, whether they are cousins or not. Either you are unaware their Goan children in advanced countries: a) do not need their parents to find someone for them b) are definitely against their parents introducing them to prospective spouses (a system that smacks of Indian arranged marriages) c) would be horrified to discover that their parents feel they are incapable of finding someone themselves (a blow to their self-esteem) ----------- Gilbert Lawrence wrote: > I ask you and others with out pre-judgement to whatever your answer is: > Is it better that your and other "cousins are completely caste-less, liberal > and forward looking," and marry non-Goans (since their parents make no effort > to marry them within the community? OR > Is it better that "my ex-Indian cousins are the opposite. They still feel > that their children should marry within the same caste and have turned all > stones to make this possible."? > > I wish the anti-casteists (instead of blindly condemning others, including > the GSB who want to marry within caste / community) state where they and > their kids are married - in the interest of full disclosure. Have they > introduced their children to marriageable partners of the Sudra or Dalit > class? Now as we say in America, there is where the rubber meets the > road.:=)) > > Most pseudo-anti-casteist that I know, have their kids married to White > Caucasians. You can tell us how many of your "caste-less, liberal and > forward looking" cousins are married to Sudras and Dalits. ---------- >From Wikepedia: Scottish clans (from Scottish Gaelic clann, "children"), give a sense of identity and shared descent to people in Scotland and to their relations throughout the world, with a formal structure of Clan Chiefs officially registered with the court of the Lord Lyon, King of Arms which controls the heraldry and Coat of Arms. Each clan has its own tartan patterns, usually dating to the 19th century, and members of the clan may wear kilts, skirts, sashes, ties, scarves, or other items of clothing made of the appropriate tartan as a badge of membership and as a uniform where appropriate. Clans identify with geographical areas originally controlled by the Chiefs, usually with an ancestral castle or manor, and clan gatherings form a regular part of the social scene.
