i m denying the relencnce of Adivasi movemnt
sorry a correction.
pls read it as "I m not denying"
--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
greenyouth mailinglist is the activist support mailinglist for kerala
To post to this group, send email to greenyouth@googlegroups.com
-~---
hi dilip
i m denying the relencnce of Adivasi movemnt, but just pointed out that how
such a movement gets the GO node from the mainstream.. in fact i support the
movement.. i ve intervies CK Janu during those days as well. i ve high
regard for her and the movement. and dont deny its history of evo
Adivasi land issue never get support untill Janu raised the question of
'pakaram bhoomi'
X'n NGOs and Manorama came with support(which never happnd before)...dalit
intellectuals/orgnsations supportd, but critiqued it
Your reporting is again incorrect, Ranjith
The specific struggle you are referri
a,no doubt,these new issue movements are important and
they are raising prominent questions.
b,The post-emergency context of india gave a new space
for democratic movements,expanding the democratic
sphere is an important agenda for these movements.At
the same,this period had given birth to the he
"There are no permanent enemies or allies"( in issue based mobilisations)
just a few words on this:
Even in such mobilizations,
to the degree to which issues of caste and gender get selectively
addressed /prioritized /mystified / focused / invisibli-zed so as to not
disturb the staus-quoist con
Two Qoutable utterances:
"Outside of these killings, Washington has the lowest of crime rates in this
country"
Marian Barry, Mayor,Washington DC
We do not necessarily discriminate; we simply exclude certain types of
people"
Colonel Gerald Wellman, ROTC Instructor
--~--~-~--~~-
re: CK Janu's movemnt
adivasi land issue never get support untill Janu raised the question of
'pakaram bhoomi'
X'n NGOs and Manorama came with support(which never happnd before)...dalit
intellectuals/orgnsations supportd, but critiqued it
i do remember as a cub reporter covering 'Kudilketti samara
if it is for a better cause let them be
but i doubt, as i have seen the kind of SILENCE from feminsts (as
Maharashtrian Dalit feminists rightly critiquesd it as Brahmin women
movemnt) who shy away from issues of dalit women
i guess, it is the same case here in Chitralekha issue (correct me if i am
:-) Ranjith... I wish you won't take my comment
too serious this time!!
There could be practical problems for unsubscribing...
Why don't we accept the right to opt out as democratic as well?
On 7/28/07, Ranjit Ranjit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> issue based movemnt were always ther, but as
issue based movemnt were always ther, but as i have pointed out time has
come to de-localise these movemnts theorise it
otherwise it'l remain localised entities and may not transform into a
MOVEMENT
it's alos interesting to note that many who 'claims to be working for women'
and so (if i m not wro
@googlegroups.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 26, 2007 7:28 PM
> *Subject:* {greenyouth} Re: Caste and Gender In The Urban Space of Kerala
>
>
>
> A correction first.
> "though i asked wher r they? that provoked dilip"
>
> It's incorrect reporting. I asked cou
please unsubscrib us from this mailing list
sakhi
- Original Message -
From: Dileep Raj
To: greenyouth@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 7:28 PM
Subject: {greenyouth} Re: Caste and Gender In The Urban Space of Kerala
A correction first.
"though i
For me what is new in issue based mobilisations
are the following.
1. They are not afraid of results. They do expect concrete results from
within
the existing system. Quite often they raise demands which could be
realised.
2. That brings different forces together around the specific issue.
There a
Everybody knows that language warfare is an important
reality in new politics.new latin american spring
thunders are effectively using language
politics.dialogue space is enlarging and it
accommodates different opininons,computer net
works,civil society invitations,,interviews etc are
opening open
North indian dalit politics posed the same question of
ranjith.This is also a period of Ekalavya.his fingers
are being cut down.
--- salimtk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > i had a brief discussion with K K Kochu recently .
> As a scholar he has
> > earned a place among dalits..but i doubt,
Chithralekha,civil society,democracy
Ranjith is right,if chithralekha was not a dalit,this
incident might not have happened.
I like to quote NCDHR report about atrocities on
dalits.
Every hour 2 dalits are assaulted,every day 3 dalit
women are rapped,every day 2 dalits are murdered,every
day 2 da
i like your arguments.But,i have reservations.A new
language is being used in internet.that's
positive.Latin american discourses are the best
examples for these types of languages.i feel the
dangerous hegemony of neo-brahmanism.
--- Dileep Raj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I feel the discussion ha
It's incorrect reporting.
Re: Wher r they?
u have misquoted me out of context that i have already pointed out in one of
the previous mails...
see, i am not positioning myself unproblematically here. but i cant wait for
the perfect "ethical" question to enter the discourse, nor am i gonna
withdraw
we all construct our arguments from ideological positions
and as such, i think, the question of morality being pushed forward at this
particular juncture when issues of dalit/subaltern raised in public/cyber
spaces, would onlyled to undermine it socially/politically///
i do understand dilip's ethic
A correction first.
"though i asked wher r they? that provoked dilip"
It's incorrect reporting. I asked couple of critical questionsin response to
Ranjith's
arguments. That provoked him. He attacked me [ not my arguments] . This,
only by way of reminding what happened.
On the problematization of
good that u read Ambedkar
my point is simple-- Chitralekha issue is not just a HR case, it needs
addressing Caste Question... if she's not a dalit, perhaps this atrocity may
not have even occured...
and pure/impure debate is not mine dear... if u read Ambedkar carefully u
will understand it bette
i am also not an illeterate in Ambedkar/dalit readings.
a pure or uncontaminated addressing to an issue is your imagination only.
Chitralekha issue is raised and addressed through certain 'discourses'. if
chithralekha was not a dalit, the 'discourses' would be different. this is
what i meant.
On
morality, virtue, fascism become the focus and chitralekha issue remains
un-addressed
such discursive attempts have been practised in history whnevr one raise the
issue of the downtrodden, Gandhi being one of the major players...
and perhaps u couldnt understand/experienced the infllence of caste
i mean throughtout these conversations the focus was Chitraleka issue, not
that i discussed.
what if Chitralekha was not a dalit? the whole nature of debate, discussion,
focus and all would be something else, or we woudnt be discussing it at
all. so, the morality, virtue, fascism and all are not
what else has been the focus here so far?
do u think that we r really discussing Chitralekha issue here?
Venugopal can say that, but not u, i think
if u dont want to discuss it, what can i do
i tried to debate the theoretical questions raised by dilip (in my capacity)
i appreciate that, at the s
what else has been the focus here so far? the problem starts when u think
this should only be the focus and everybody, no matter which area of life
they are involved in, should come, study, and discuss this issue.
On 7/26/07, Ranjit Ranjit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> hi salim
> it seems u didnt
hi salim
it seems u didnt get my point, chalo kya kareh...
if u all have strong pro-chitralekh stand, and tht's been sited as reason
for the supreme SILENCE, wht more can i say...
my contention is that if all r concernd let us focus the discussion on
that, .
at the same if the attempt to problema
aren't we all stay safely distant from the 'real' battle ground of
Chitralekha ? then why do the people like dilip only fall in to the category
of 'healthy' side? what are the 'immunities' of ranjith for being on the
'other' side always?
i didnt see anybody in this group insisting for 'moral' corre
hi
i had a brief discussion with K K Kochu recently . As a scholar he has
earned a place among dalits..but i doubt, that still the "mainstream"
hesitate to accept him
his presence among "cultural leaders", in the present context cant be seen,
if i am not wrong, as a sign of inclusiveness in the k
I feel the discussion has become sympathetic buy now.
You may forgive me for the 'pollluted' English i am writing in ..
By 'sympathetic' I meant ' not antagonistic but healthy'!!
Something like Ulparty Janadhipatyam
On 7/25/07, C.K. Vishwanath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> All over the wo
Hi,
I feel the discussion has become sympathetic buy now.
And, precisely that is one of my problem with Ranjith, Viswanath and
C K Raju who in an earlier situation complained/ accused that some
intellectuals are getting away from the real issue [ for him, it was
Smart City which effected people at
All over the world the most oppressed communities are
asserting themselves.they are developing new
strategies to counter hegemonic forces.of
course,india,dalits are re-writng india's golden
past,village romanticism etc.Even they found out their
role in emergency in american diaspora.but,in
kerala
hi
as you are the one running after the samskarikanayakar to force them to
speak out.
if i run it'd would after these Brahmincal slaves, but not to make them
speak out
but to make them teach a lesson (how's de polemics!!!)
It is requested that instead of waisting time in fighting with me (as i ca
hi
i dont think so Mr Salim, especially from people like u
i dont need ur "empowerment"
when I assert it's a problem for u
when Chitralekha asserted it's a problem for cultural KErala
that's the strange similarty of the so called "nobody in the group fails to
see brahminic system" with that of t
For empowerment question,where is the level playing
field?This is not just a power play.chithralekha issue
is clearly a genocidal matter.NCDHR gives us the day
to day reality of casteist violence .Kerala also
gives its contribution.
--- salimtk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> this kind of supreme
you deserve empowerement :), as you are the one running after the
samskarikanayakar to force them to speak out.
On 7/25/07, Ranjit Ranjit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> hi
>
> democratic spaces are like Indian secularism
>
> resistance to Brahmanism cant be achieved through begging or patronising
hi
democratic spaces are like Indian secularism
resistance to Brahmanism cant be achieved through begging or patronising
it's very intersting to notice the enthusiasm to ctitique Dalit/subaletrn
politics (any criticism is welcome), but the same cannot be seen in the case
of critiquing the mainstr
this kind of supreme self righteousness 'even' in the name of
dalit/subaltern politics reminds me of the 'golden' days of proletarian
dictatorship. they rejected all democratic space, rights, tolerance, and
dialogues by calling them bourgeois.
if we assume any superior legitimacy for us over other
i remember gail omvedt's article on this topic.she
analysed it brilliantly.The post-dalit panther
politics of india don't want any patronage.Multiple
oppressions of dalits have been sidelining for
centuries.The particular inclusion/exclusion strategy
of castiest strategy doesn't work anymore.chith
hi dilip,
see i have no claims of an activist or intellectual
i wanna raise the issue of Dalit/subaltern refering chitralekha issue, as a
continuation of wht Mr Venugopal wrote. and i begun by raising the quesion
of silence and invisibility i have mentioned it in my previous mails and
dont wa
AIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Dileep Raj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Jul 24, 2007 6:53 PM
> Subject: {greenyouth} Re: Caste and Gender In The
> Urban Space of Kerala
> To: greenyouth@googlegroups.com
>
>
>
> "let
"let me add that this may please not be mistaken for calling you or others
names"
Well, there couldn't be any better definition of fascism than given [
negatively ] in the above statement.
Recently in MM Vision , Johny Lukkose asked M N Vijayan about the 'nasty
language' used in Patam magazine a
My poser was as simple as this:
Where was fascism in criticising (individual(s) , parties, or whatever)?
Another related question: Where is the 'difference' between criticism for
silence and soliciting the help of the cultural elites in this issue? (when
being silent almost borders culpability
What is so much 'fascist' in demanding response from distinguished people
with known allegiance to concerns of human rights, particularly in this
case, where atrocities continues to be perpetrated with near total impunity
against a dalit woman ?( And further,even in criticising them for being
silen
yea it's always complicated...who'l be given birth to it or who can be
omitted... such generalisations will always create problems..especially when
we use it as an 'abusive' term..
and it becomes so from the very connotations and denotations of the civil
society (another complicated term)...
i know
Two Questions to Dileep;
1.What is so much 'fascist' in demanding response from distinguished people
with known allegiance to concerns of human rights, particularly in this
case, where atrocities continues to be perpetrated with near total impunity
against a dalit woman ?( And further,even in criti
Complicate! Always complicate!!!
Allow me to complicate the issue of 'Cultural Leaders ' more.
K. K. Koch and Salimkumar were there in the group which
supported Munnar action [ From reports I came to theis knowledge. Not quite
sure about it]
are they included in this apolitical list of Samskarik
the silence of Malayali intellectuals, cultural leaders, feminists in the
chitralekha issue is conspicuous. these pseodo-intellectuals and feminsts
have come forward to lend support for Achudanandan in Munnar issue, but
never come out of their caste castles in support of any Dalit/subaltern
issue..
Hi,
As discussions in this forum is well archived, let me
remind the timeline of this particular discussion briefly.
The man accusing others for making Samskarika nayakar
the debating point instead of Chitralekha's resistence himself
raised the issue first on July 19!
wher r they? Sara joseph, A
more over, the attempt to mock at collectivities will favour the statist and
status quoist NGOisation
these will reduce dalit/subaltern resistances to the itinerary of "new
Social movements"
such a reductive ontology has been cleverly planted ...
either u remain essentialised or coopted to the civi
The near lack of sensitivity in Chithralekha Case, one of the most
grotesquely played out abuse of human rights recently in Kerala that has
caused a poor dalit woman to flee her home and hearth, has to be reiterated
here; notwithstanding the illfeeling it may generate inside the collective
ego of
hi
Am i part of this civil soceity? Will people like u allow us to be part of
this civil soceity?
is chitralekha part of this civil society?
if we were part of it issues of chitralekha, rajni s anand, neetu etc etc
would not have been mad e invisible
got the point??
and this anger of anivar is go
hi only
Am i part of this civil soceity? Will people like u allow us to be part of
this civil soceity?
is chitralekha part of this civil society?
if we were part of it issues of chitralekha, rajni s anand, neetu etc etc
would have been mad e invisible
got the point??
and this anger of anivar is goo
Dear Raeekand others,
Yes, yes..but I meant no malice toward anyone specifically..but have been
trying to critically acknowledge only two things here in the debate so far:
1.The issue of Chithralekha's (as a dalit woman, pitted against many odds
and the overall apathy from the HR activists of Keral
Anivar,
What is there in 'they','us',etc.unless you impute insinuating connotation
to such expressions,taken out of context? I feel that the issue at stake is
sought to be obscured (perhaps uncosciously) and relegated to a point that
nobody would like to address and redefine it with a bit of
self
Dear Venu Gopal and Ranjith Ranjith
Well done, but still I cant understand what is going on. In my opinion, this
has already started, independetly of whether one as individual (with his/her
petty ego wedded to poor sensitivity toward the dalit experience of fellow
humans) is able to fully comprehe
Ranjit Ranjit wrote:
> this discussion gave a clear picure of the priorities of our civil
> society... they prefer to debate on samskarika nayakar/ki , but not
> on real issues some close their eyes and demands heavenly bliss for
> all cure pity that they need to bo told abt wht's happening in ke
Dear Venugopal,
this discussion gave a clear picure of the priorities of our civil
society...
they prefer to debate on samskarika nayakar/ki , but not on real issues
some close their eyes and demands heavenly bliss for all cure
pity that they need to bo told abt wht's happening in kerala
when will
Dear Ranjith,Dileep and all who are concerned,
An ordinary attempt to bring to focus an essentially Human Rights issue
suddenly invites bitterness and contempt!
I'm afraid this is a roadblock which is rather crashed through by more
resolute attempts in challenging the prevailing brahmanic structu
hi
dilip is right in saying that it's not diaspra, but local/regional
resistances that will make changes
at the same time, at the academic/cultural frontiers the local remain a trap
which cannot see through the walls of Kerala model
DSU and other such initiatives by Dalits are the only sites wher o
to anil
Open ur eyes and see
u can see right in front of ur eyes that such a "samiti" exists which u
people delightedly mock at and conveniently neglect
and keep ur abhivadyangal for ur fellow comrades in kerala
u may need it at least for their funeral function
regards
--~--~-~--~~---
There is no way out except through building alliances with others located
outside Kerala --
I would disagree with Devika on this point . [ Not because somebody in this
forum is assuming it through imagination,
'representing' it wholesale, making democracy others' burden, placing
oneself convenie
Dear Ranjith
Since you choose to be in 'hell", why can't to you go to Kerala and take
initiative to form a " Samarasamathi" to support Chitralekha. The actual
resistance should start from there. Then, we can think of forming support
groups in the virtual world of Web ("heavenly" support!!). I
hi all,
DILIP RAJ'S JOKES APART...
let us come back to our business..
As venugopal in his mail pointed out;
It is hoped that members of this forum may well recognize the implications
of the continuing struggle of Chithralekha and come forward to extend
substantial support.
And as Ms Devika sugge
I don't find my presence or absence as a crucial factor in the evolution of
Dalit movement in Kerala. If Mr. Ranjith is trying to tell me that once he
brand me as something I won't have the freedom to express my views or act as
I wish,..Go to hell man!!
hi
i read dileep's response later
his re
hi
i was not condemning any one.. though i might sound so ...
and it's not just a chitralekha issue that is of my concern
i m least concerned abt whether sara joseph, ajita and dilip raj fall on one
side or other
my intention to "irritate " people through this discussion forum was to
focus the att
Dear Ranjith
While I do see your anger against public non-response, clubbing ajita, sara
joseph and dileep raj together (I'd read dilip's mail and just glanced at
your response when I wrote) and then condemning all of them in the same
breath is bad politics. I'm amazed to see how often we wh
...issues in which dileep raj's heros and heroins participate enmasse in the
name of the downtrodden... and i dont expect any thing from either dileep
raj or sara josesh or ajitha as i am very clear abt to what extent these
people can go as far as dalit cause is concerned...
Ha Ha Mr. Ranjith, I
Very interesting commentary on the issue; A perspective from a recent
expatriate
The realities of cast and gender are far more alarming in so called
developed or states with exceptionally high ranks in Human Development
Index of India. This is a reality not only of Kerala but also its
neighboring
Dear Dilip and Ranjit
Reading your exchanges, can't help feeling both you are right -- and maybe
what you're saying isn't so contrary to each other. I agree that moralism
is a poor political strategy -- pointing out that someone else isn't
politically correct will harm the prospects of formi
hi
just take chitralekha's case... and check with her for how many people she
approached for support...
i am not insisting that wht cultural leaders or "acting" intellectuals
should do
rather i was trying to point out how insensitive and indifferent are our
"civil society" is towards these issues
Isn't it a fascist move to
demand response from certain
people on all issues?
Isn't it an issue of personal choice
and priority?
Could Ranjith Ranjith substantiate
his accusation with concrete examples?
What I understand is that
it is very easy to get the support
of 'cultural leaders' on all mos
hi devikaji,
Well said.
i was shocked to see the invisible side of progressive kerala, in my recent
visit to kerala and interactions with some of the dalit activists. many
dalit organisations (includes caste/subcaste ones also) are fighting against
caste atrocities happening in very nook and corne
Dear ranjit
If you look at mathrubhumi today and read what the samskaarika nayakanmaar
are up to. as for the naayikamaar, well, they are generally so blind, that
they can't see beyond their noses (the nose being also a metaphor for their
narrow idea of public interest!).
i think much better
the silence of Malayali intellectuals, cultural leaders, feminists in the
chitralekha issue is conspicuos. these pseodo-intellectuals and feminsts
have come forward to lend support for Achudanandan in Munnar issue, but
never come out of their caste castles in support of any Dalit/subaltern
issue..
hi
Mr Venugopal has initiated a debate which many so called "intellectuals"
refuse to undertake or not even able to digest bz of the
misguided/overemphasised class deterministic discourse of old marxism.. and
the religious following of revisionist communism as "revolutionary" and
radical...
Chitra
The story has been similar if not same in terms of magnitude of the voilence
committed, from Belchi (Bihar-1970s) to Parasbhiga(UP?1980s) to
Schundur(1990s, Andhra Pradesh) to Jhajjar (Haryana, 2004?) to
Khairlanchi(Maharashtra, 2006 Sept 29th- 30th) and many many of unreported
crimes.
The differen
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