Re: helping the user is not an error

On Wed, 24 May 2006 07:01:55 -0500, Peter da Silva wrote: > On May 23, 2006, at 2:30 PM, H.Merijn Brand wrote: > > How much skin do you need? Or better how bare can you strip it? > > Who cares? The BIG problem with skinnable apps is that they never ever > *behave* consistently with the native U

Re: helping the user is not an error

On May 23, 2006, at 2:30 PM, H.Merijn Brand wrote: How much skin do you need? Or better how bare can you strip it? Who cares? The BIG problem with skinnable apps is that they never ever *behave* consistently with the native UI (or, in the case of X11, with any of the native UIs). Even if you

Re: helping the user is not an error

On May 23, 2006, at 11:36 AM, David Cantrell wrote: Oh come on, you have to admit that making each client application resonsible for deciding how to draw its widgets is crazy. If 'twere up to me, X servers would be responsible for rendering at least the basics, with - perhaps the user being a

Re: helping the user is not an error

On Tue, 23 May 2006 20:39:43 +0200, "A. Pagaltzis" wrote: > * jrod...@hate.spamportal.net [2006-05-23 > 19:10]: > > But if we're going to wander into "inconsistent widgets are > > terrible" territory (which they are), I'm going to have to > > mention the joy of Opera for Linux. > > I abandoned

Re: helping the user is not an error

* jrod...@hate.spamportal.net [2006-05-23 19:10]: > But if we're going to wander into "inconsistent widgets are > terrible" territory (which they are), I'm going to have to > mention the joy of Opera for Linux. I abandoned Opera when they went from pure-Qt in 5.x to a skinned interface in 6.x. I

Re: helping the user is not an error

* jrod...@hate.spamportal.net [2006-05-23 19:25]: > I suppose BMPX is a restart of the project? Yes, BMPx is "we gave up trying but we're reusing the same name for a completely different project anyway because we're the same developer team." > I'd know better, but the bmpx page has this for cont

Re: helping the user is not an error

On Tue, May 23, 2006 at 06:37:15PM +0200, H.Merijn Brand wrote: > On Tue, 23 May 2006 18:22:35 +0200, "A. Pagaltzis" wrote: > > > * Yoz Grahame [2006-05-23 14:10]: > > > Incidentally, if you long for a Windows Media Player with the old v6 > > > interface but with modern features, I highly recomm

Re: helping the user is not an error

On Tue, May 23, 2006 at 05:36:04PM +0100, David Cantrell wrote: > On Tue, May 23, 2006 at 06:18:32PM +0200, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > > * Chris Devers [2006-05-23 14:45]: > > > On Tue, 23 May 2006, Yoz Grahame wrote: > > > > I *think* it's all Winamp's fault, but can't prove it. I'm > > > > actually g

Re: helping the user is not an error

* Chris Devers [2006-05-23 18:40]: > I'm pretty sure X11 was pummeling people with ugly, yet > pointlessly endlessly configurable diarrhetic UI abominations > several years before Winamp came back to do the same thing with > much less ambition. There's a difference between a skinnable app and a

Re: helping the user is not an error

* H.Merijn Brand [2006-05-23 18:40]: > On Tue, 23 May 2006 18:22:35 +0200, "A. Pagaltzis" wrote: > > I also hear this one is pretty popular among people who only > > need an audio player: http://www.foobar2000.org/ > > Beep Media Player is too sophisticated already? > http://freshmeat.net/projec

Re: helping the user is not an error

On Tue, 23 May 2006, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > * Chris Devers [2006-05-23 14:45]: > > On Tue, 23 May 2006, Yoz Grahame wrote: > > > I *think* it's all Winamp's fault, but can't prove it. I'm > > > actually genuinely interested in researching this for a > > > reason - does anyone know what totally-use

Re: helping the user is not an error

On Tue, May 23, 2006 at 06:18:32PM +0200, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > * Chris Devers [2006-05-23 14:45]: > > On Tue, 23 May 2006, Yoz Grahame wrote: > > > I *think* it's all Winamp's fault, but can't prove it. I'm > > > actually genuinely interested in researching this for a > > > reason - does anyone k

Re: helping the user is not an error

On Tue, 23 May 2006 18:22:35 +0200, "A. Pagaltzis" wrote: > * Yoz Grahame [2006-05-23 14:10]: > > Incidentally, if you long for a Windows Media Player with the old v6 > > interface but with modern features, I highly recommend Media Player > > Classic: > > http://sourceforge.net/projects/guliverk

Re: helping the user is not an error

* Yoz Grahame [2006-05-23 14:10]: > Incidentally, if you long for a Windows Media Player with the old v6 > interface but with modern features, I highly recommend Media Player > Classic: > http://sourceforge.net/projects/guliverkli/ > ... which is worth keeping around even if you have VLC as it's >

Re: helping the user is not an error

* Chris Devers [2006-05-23 14:45]: > On Tue, 23 May 2006, Yoz Grahame wrote: > > I *think* it's all Winamp's fault, but can't prove it. I'm > > actually genuinely interested in researching this for a > > reason - does anyone know what totally-user-skinnable apps > > existed before Winamp? > > X11

Re: helping the user is not an error

[Microsoft Media Player] > *sigh* Yes. Which, as I result, I can hardly use. I keep a copy of version 2 around. Then there's itunes which (on the Mac at least) looks like it's a standard Cocoa application, but is some kind of Carbon-based precursor to actual Carbon and uses its own magic widgets

Re: helping the user is not an error

On Tue, 23 May 2006, Yoz Grahame wrote: > I *think* it's all Winamp's fault, but can't prove it. I'm actually > genuinely interested in researching this for a reason - does anyone > know what totally-user-skinnable apps existed before Winamp? X11 ? -- Chris Devers

Re: helping the user is not an error

On 5/23/06, Philip Newton wrote: On 5/23/06, A. Pagaltzis wrote: > * Philip Newton [2006-05-23 13:40]: > > User interface guidelines are there for a reason, and even > > Microsoft kinda-sorta sticks to them. > > Except for their media player. *sigh* Yes. Which, as I result, I can hardly use.

Re: helping the user is not an error

On 5/23/06, A. Pagaltzis wrote: * Philip Newton [2006-05-23 13:40]: > User interface guidelines are there for a reason, and even > Microsoft kinda-sorta sticks to them. Except for their media player. *sigh* Yes. Which, as I result, I can hardly use. It looked just fine in the mid-90's -- wh

Re: helping the user is not an error

Why, in particular, do media players have to look like flowers or who-knows-what? System default widgets might not look as if Christo designed them but at least they're recognisable, so people know what to expect! User interface guidelines are there for a reason, and even Microsoft kinda-sorta sti

Re: helping the user is not an error

* Philip Newton [2006-05-23 13:40]: > User interface guidelines are there for a reason, and even > Microsoft kinda-sorta sticks to them. Except for their media player. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis //

Re: helping the user is not an error

On 5/23/06, Peter da Silva wrote: Back to the Amiga... Programs that made their own widgets so they ignored the high res text and 3d look I got from patching Intuition to take advantage of my video card. And on Windows that's become pandemic, to the point where finding a non-skinned applicatio

Re: helping the user is not an error

Oh, geeze, I have a quarter century of hate saved up for programs that write to stdout, stderr, or even open up /dev/tty deliberately and spew stuff around all my pipelines regardless. EVERY operating system has hateful equivalents to these... MS-DOS 2.11, where loading ansi.sys meant that it

helping the user is not an error

When the user asks for help, giving that help is not an error. So please use STDOUT and not STDERR. It makes it so much easier to redirect your overly verbose spew into less(1). -- David Cantrell | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david Deck of Cards: $1.29. "101 Solitaire Variations" book: