Excellent ideas. I look forward to seeing your concrete proposals, and how they differ from what Sugar offers now, which I am still entirely unclear on. I thought that Sugar was the linked set of rooms with indexing and search facilities that you describe as your goal.
On Sat, September 15, 2012 8:41 pm, David Brown wrote: > as i started sketching out a design of something a child could use with no > training and no need for a guru "Help Desk" by the side, i realised that > what i had would be equally useful for general use by anyone. > > so i changed its name to OUI (Obvious User Interface) - it uses the > metaphor of a house of rooms within which named (and hence indexable) user > activities take place, instead of a desktop with folders of files on it > with an omnipotent file manager so you can mess up your data. > > https://sites.google.com/site/djhbrown2/oui.pdf > > the metaphor is not a big deal in and of itself - it's just that OUI's > conceptual structure makes it obvious to any user what they can do with > the > machine and how they can do it and where what they did before is; and it > helps them organise and name and hence find the information they create > themselves (their "works"). a teacher who wanted to monitor progress > could just look at the child's works > > re diagram below, what i was thinking of was making OUI the sys ui. [btw, > whereas a sugar "activity" is a single app (and its record), a OUI > "activity" is a named room (aka folder) containing artifacts (aka files) > produced so far with various tools (aka apps) - the artifacts represent > the > current state of the activity]. > > user > / \ > / \ > sys ui app ui (each app has its own ui) > | / \ > | / \ > user mgt app > \ / > \ / > os (eg gnome or fedora or android) > > Some screenshot mockups might help >> > > to the user, OUI is just a menu - that's all you need! every tool has its > own particular screen. the menu can be slid out in any room to show all > the tools and artifacts in that room and let you open side doors to the > "Library" and "Internet and People" rooms. > > the Library, however, is a bit special: there is still the problem that > Dewey, Yahoo and Google all attacked - that of indexing a repository of > information that other people have created in such a way that you can find > what kind of thing you are looking for easily. "kind of thing" is the key > phrase here - you may no't know exactly what you want, you just know the > kind of things you like, but you also need your interloctor (the machine) > to make suggestions to you because there might be something there you > would > like, if only you knew what it was called. > > to my mind, Google has found the most practical approach even though it > turns up more advertisements about where one can buy information than > information itself (not to mention misinformation and disinformation) - > but > that's the nature of the socio-political-economic system mankind lives in > and that's not going to change any time soon. > > so i figure it would be good to be able to do a Google search of one's own > local data (particularly the tool collection) as well as having a > hierarchical file structure so one can directly relocate frequently-used > familiar things. > > indexing-wise, words are our keys to meaning, but the range of things in > the real world is so vast and the range of the largest dictionary so small > by comparison that ambiguity is inevitable: a rose by any other name would > indeed smell as sweet, but there are all kinds of stinky things also > called > roses out there: > > "when i use a word", said Humpty-Dumpty in a scornful tone, "i use it to > mean what I want it to mean - neither more nor less" > > - and that works well for personal hierarchical indexes! > > PS constructivism can be applied within a syllabus as well as outside of > it. i have no criticism of etoys, logo (aka turtle art) etc - quite the > opposite! they are among the first tools i would put in a OUI Library for > my own child to play with. there are some pretty good apps > elsewhere<http://www.papert.org/>too. It's just the sugar interface > to get to them and the other > educational content that i think can be improved upon... and i reckon that > the educational content should include stuff to directly support whatever > particular syllabus a school is using, so the xo and what you can do with > it becomes an integral part of the curriculum. > > Hosting the document as a wiki rather than a pdf would aid community > input. >> > > there is a wiki on OUI here: > http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Talk:Design_Team/Proposals > the OUI design document is located separately because (a) its easier for > me > to edit it with Libre Office than by using the wiki editor and (b) OUI is > not just about xo; it could work on any platform > > > > On 13 September 2012 14:01, <fors...@ozonline.com.au> wrote: > >> Hi David >> >> You have written a wide ranging piece which is difficult for me to >> respond >> to comprehensively, please permit me to respond to just a few points. >> >> 1) Working against school systems >> Though Sugar/OLPC are unashamedly constructivist/constructionist, I >> don't >> think it is accurate to characterise them as "revolution (by working >> against them [school systems])", although comments like that may have >> been >> made at times by some. >> >> Constructiv(n)ist learning takes place within schools and continues >> outside of school. Many teachers and schools recognise its importance. >> Wanting schools to change their emphasis from instruction to more >> construction is evolutionary. Supporting the learning that takes place >> outside of school is not working against schools, its complimentary. >> >> 2) How to prevent/stem infection ... manage money >> This is the kind of stuff that the most constructionist Activities, >> Etoys, >> Scratch, TurtleArt, really excell at. Have a look at some of their >> simulations. I am not sure what you are criticising here in OLPC/Sugar, >> but >> if its constructionism, I think the criticism is not well founded >> >> 3) Proposed OUI >> I gather that you are not a supporter of the Home view and the tagged >> Journal. I have some reservations myself. It is limited in things like >> multiple file operations and mangling of file name extensions. The >> inclusion of Gnome in OLPC images is a good thing and neutralises my >> concerns about Sugar. Kids can migrate to Gnome once they become more >> sophisticated users, somewhere around the upper primary lower secondary >> years. >> >> I would like to see Sugar Activities able to run in Gnome and vice >> versa. >> As far as I know, TurtleArt is the only one that does both. There are >> excellent Sugar Activities that should not be restricted to just the >> Sugar >> desktop. >> >> When it comes to desktop metaphors, I don't much care. Kids are much >> less >> concerned with metaphors than we are, they will take an operating system >> as >> is. My problem with your OUI is that I can't see what problem it is >> solving. It may be better than the current Sugar desktop but I can't >> tell. >> Some screenshot mockups might help. Hosting the document as a wiki >> rather >> than a pdf would aid community input. >> >> Thanks >> Tony >> >> >> > i see that olpc is responding to consumer demand and putting android >> as >> > well as sugar on new xo3 machines. >> > >> > perhaps this will become gladiatorial combat in which one will die, or >> > perhaps it is an opportunity for conjugation by their respective >> developers >> > to give birth to a new generation of interface that possesses the best >> > features of each ... it all depends on how the teams respond. >> > >> > presumably, the original intent of olpc was to facilitate education; >> > education in the broadest sense. >> > >> > there are two strategies for that: evolution (by working with school >> > systems) or revolution (by working against them). >> > >> > perhaps i am wrong, but it looks to me that sugar has followed the >> latter >> > route. Papert's marvellous insights were seminal - and i seem to >> recall >> > that there was talk of a revolution in the classroom - but perhaps >> that >> was >> > just the heady language of the 1960s at work? the electronic >> spreadsheet >> > was another seminal development - and even more far-reaching, for it >> was >> > the one that sparked the personal computer revolution in the first >> place, >> > and one that has stood the test of time so far. >> > >> > economic/social revolution worked in France, but its ideals never made >> it >> > into USA political consciousness, except in the mouths of a few >> sanguine >> > commentators like Noam Chomsky and less sanguine ones like Michael >> Moore. >> > >> > yet the computer revolution still hasn't made a major impact on >> education - >> > a minor one, to be sure, but the promise has yet to be fully realised. >> it >> > is possible that the people who like making software, being computer >> > enthusiasts, forget that the average Joe child in whatever country has >> > other, more urgent, more visceral, more real-world needs than making >> > machines dance? like knowing how to prevent/stem infection. like >> knowing >> > how to manage money. etc etc. computers could help them learn these >> vital >> > things, if only that was where the technocrats' motivations lay... >> > >> > in the long run, evolution is more persistent than revolution. >> empires, >> > having risen, eventually and fall. but technology marches on and >> drags >> > humankind (sometimes kicking and screaming) into new ways of thinking >> about >> > things. >> > >> > an interface, like a human language, is a means to an end, but >> > (particularly in a monopoly market) there is always the risk of it >> becoming >> > political territory, as with the Academie Francaise for example, >> fighting >> > off the linguistic invasion of "l'Anglish". >> > >> > but if evolution is truly inevitable, might it not be better to go >> with >> it >> > than stick one's heels in against it? >> > >> > aside from the surface interface issues of whether one should point >> with >> a >> > finger or a mouse, or type on a screen or a keyboard (typing isn't >> going >> to >> > go away anytime soon as reliable AI aural comprehension is still a >> long >> way >> > off) - there are deeper issues; issues about the "deep interface" - >> issues >> > about how the interface provides access to function. Google has found >> a >> > pretty good way of providing access to data - now users need one for >> > providing obvious access pathways to function too, to make machines >> truly >> > "user-friendly". >> > >> > and a means of facilitating collaboration: if there is one still >> green >> > field waiting to be ploughed, it is the field of synchronous real-time >> > collaborative creative activity extending beyond mere chat. user >> > collaboration takes place inside an application, but the screen >> management >> > and filesystem support engineering needs to provide the props for that >> to >> > occur smoothly, to assure data integrity, etc. this is one of the >> stated >> > design goals of sugar; i don't know whether it is also a design goal >> of >> > android. >> > >> > below is one suggestion on how desktop and playground metaphors of >> > android/linux and sugar respectively could coalesce and evolve, so >> that >> the >> > user interface gets out of the user's way and becomes merely a means >> to >> the >> > end of facilitating interaction with the real educational (or other >> > functional) content instead of (as in the case of sugar) shouting >> about >> > itself in the user's face or (as in the case of linux) being awkwardly >> > troublesome for the non-geek: >> > >> > https://sites.google.com/site/djhbrown2/oui.pdf >> > <div><span >> style="vertical-align:baseline;margin:0px;border:0px;padding:0px">i see >> that olpc is responding to consumer demand and putting android as well >> as >> sugar on new xo3 machines.</span><div >> style="vertical-align:baseline;margin:0px;border:0px;padding:0px"> >> > >> > <br></div><div >> style="vertical-align:baseline;margin:0px;border:0px;padding:0px">perhaps >> this will become gladiatorial combat in which one will die, or perhaps >> it >> is an opportunity for conjugation by their respective developers to give >> birth to a new generation of interface that possesses the best features >> of >> each ... it all depends on how the teams respond.</div> >> > >> > <div >> style="vertical-align:baseline;margin:0px;border:0px;padding:0px"><br></div><div >> style="vertical-align:baseline;margin:0px;border:0px;padding:0px">presumably, >> the original intent of olpc was to facilitate education; education in >> the >> broadest sense.</div> >> > >> > <div >> style="vertical-align:baseline;margin:0px;border:0px;padding:0px"><br></div><div >> style="vertical-align:baseline;margin:0px;border:0px;padding:0px">there >> are >> two strategies for that: evolution (by working with school systems) or >> revolution (by working against them).</div> >> > >> > <div >> style="vertical-align:baseline;margin:0px;border:0px;padding:0px"><br></div><div >> style="vertical-align:baseline;margin:0px;border:0px;padding:0px">perhaps >> i >> am wrong, but it looks to me that sugar has followed the latter route. >> Papert's marvellous insights were seminal - and i seem to recall that >> there was talk of a revolution in the classroom - but perhaps that was >> just >> the heady language of the 1960s at work? the electronic spreadsheet was >> another seminal development - and even more far-reaching, for it was the >> one that sparked the personal computer revolution in the first place, >> and >> one that has stood the test of time so far.</div> >> > >> > <div >> style="vertical-align:baseline;margin:0px;border:0px;padding:0px"><br></div><div >> style="vertical-align:baseline;margin:0px;border:0px;padding:0px">economic/social >> revolution worked in France, but its ideals never made it into USA >> political consciousness, except in the mouths of a few sanguine >> commentators like Noam Chomsky and less sanguine ones like Michael >> Moore. </div> >> > >> > <div >> style="vertical-align:baseline;margin:0px;border:0px;padding:0px"><br></div><div >> style="vertical-align:baseline;margin:0px;border:0px;padding:0px">yet >> the >> computer revolution still hasn't made a major impact on education - a >> minor >> one, to be sure, but the promise has yet to be fully realised. it is >> possible that the people who like making software, being computer >> enthusiasts, forget that the average Joe child in whatever country has >> other, more urgent, more visceral, more real-world needs than making >> machines dance? like knowing how to prevent/stem infection. like >> knowing >> how to manage money. etc etc. computers could help them learn these >> vital >> things, if only that was where the technocrats' motivations lay...</div> >> > >> > <div >> style="vertical-align:baseline;margin:0px;border:0px;padding:0px"><br></div><div >> style="vertical-align:baseline;margin:0px;border:0px;padding:0px">in the >> long run, evolution is more persistent than revolution. empires, having >> risen, eventually and fall. but technology marches on and drags >> humankind >> (sometimes kicking and screaming) into new ways of thinking about >> things.</div> >> > >> > <div >> style="vertical-align:baseline;margin:0px;border:0px;padding:0px"><br></div><div >> style="vertical-align:baseline;margin:0px;border:0px;padding:0px">an >> interface, like a human language, is a means to an end, but >> (particularly >> in a monopoly market) there is always the risk of it becoming political >> territory, as with the Academie Francaise for example, fighting off the >> linguistic invasion of "l'Anglish".</div> >> > >> > <div >> style="vertical-align:baseline;margin:0px;border:0px;padding:0px"><br></div><div >> style="vertical-align:baseline;margin:0px;border:0px;padding:0px">but if >> evolution is truly inevitable, might it not be better to go with it than >> stick one's heels in against it?</div> >> > >> > <div >> style="vertical-align:baseline;margin:0px;border:0px;padding:0px"><br></div><div >> style="vertical-align:baseline;margin:0px;border:0px;padding:0px">aside >> from the surface interface issues of whether one should point with a >> finger >> or a mouse, or type on a screen or a keyboard (typing isn't going to go >> away anytime soon as reliable AI aural comprehension is still a long way >> off) - there are deeper issues; issues about the "deep interface" - >> issues >> about how the interface provides access to function. Google has found a >> pretty good way of providing access to data - now users need one for >> providing obvious access pathways to function too, to make machines >> truly >> "user-friendly".</div> >> > >> > <div >> style="vertical-align:baseline;margin:0px;border:0px;padding:0px"><br></div><div >> style="vertical-align:baseline;margin:0px;border:0px;padding:0px">and a >> means of facilitating collaboration: if there is one still green field >> waiting to be ploughed, it is the field of synchronous real-time >> collaborative creative activity extending beyond mere chat. user >> collaboration takes place inside an application, but the screen >> management >> and filesystem support engineering needs to provide the props for that >> to >> occur smoothly, to assure data integrity, etc. this is one of the >> stated >> design goals of sugar; i don't know whether it is also a design goal of >> android.</div> >> > >> > <div >> style="vertical-align:baseline;margin:0px;border:0px;padding:0px"><br></div><div >> style="vertical-align:baseline;margin:0px;border:0px;padding:0px">below >> is >> one suggestion on how desktop and playground metaphors of android/linux >> and >> sugar respectively could coalesce and evolve, so that the user interface >> gets out of the user's way and becomes merely a means to the end of >> facilitating interaction with the real educational (or other functional) >> content instead of (as in the case of sugar) shouting about itself in >> the >> user's face or (as in the case of linux) being awkwardly troublesome for >> the non-geek:</div> >> > >> > <div >> style="vertical-align:baseline;margin:0px;border:0px;padding:0px"><br></div><div >> style="vertical-align:baseline;margin:0px;border:0px;padding:0px"><a >> href=" >> https://sites.google.com/site/djhbrown2/oui.pdf" >> style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;vertical-align:baseline;text-decoration:none;color:rgb(102,17,204)" >> target="_blank">https://sites.google.com/site/djhbrown2/oui.pdf</a></div> >> > >> > >> > </div> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) >> > IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org >> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep >> >> > > > -- > website <http://sites.google.com/site/djhbrown2/home> > +61(0)266537638 > +61(0)488471949 > _______________________________________________ > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) > IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep -- Edward Mokurai (默雷/निशब्दगर्ज/نشبدگرج) Cherlin Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation. The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination. http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Replacing_Textbooks _______________________________________________ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep