Re: Backwards compatibility myth [Re: Last Call: draft-weil-shared-transition-space-request-14.txt]

2012-02-15 Thread Noel Chiappa
From: j...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Ironically, TCP/IP had variable length addresses put in _twice_, and they were removed both times! Sigh, another correction for the record: it was _three_ times!!! Early versions of IPv4 (IEN-28, confusingly titled Draft Internetwork

Re: Backwards compatibility myth [Re: Last Call: draft-weil-shared-transition-space-request-14.txt]

2012-02-14 Thread Dave CROCKER
On 2/13/2012 7:09 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: On 2012-02-14 13:42, Dave CROCKER wrote: On 2/13/2012 4:38 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: There were very specific reasons why this was not done. Is there a useful citation that covers this strategic decision? You may recall that at the time,

RE: Backwards compatibility myth [Re: Last Call: draft-weil-shared-transition-space-request-14.txt]

2012-02-14 Thread Greg Daley
Hi Randy and Brian, I am sure the discussion of the discussion has been had before, but: IPv4 provides no mechanism whatever for addresses greater than 32 bits. Therefore, mathematically, there is no possible design for an IP with bigger addresses that is transparently backwards

Backwards compatibility myth [Re: Last Call: draft-weil-shared-transition-space-request-14.txt]

2012-02-13 Thread Brian E Carpenter
Martin Rex wrote: ... It was the IETFs very own decision to build IPv6 in a fashion that it is not transparently backwards compatible with IPv4. If the is anyone to blame for the current situation, than it is the IETF, not the consumers or the ISPs (except for those folks at ISPs who

Re: Backwards compatibility myth [Re: Last Call: draft-weil-shared-transition-space-request-14.txt]

2012-02-13 Thread Dave CROCKER
On 2/13/2012 4:17 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: People say this from time to time, but it's a complete myth. well, not completely... IPv4 provides no mechanism whatever for addresses greater than 32 bits. Therefore, mathematically, there is no possible design for an IP with bigger

Re: Backwards compatibility myth [Re: Last Call: draft-weil-shared-transition-space-request-14.txt]

2012-02-13 Thread Brian E Carpenter
On 2012-02-14 13:32, Dave CROCKER wrote: On 2/13/2012 4:17 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: People say this from time to time, but it's a complete myth. well, not completely... IPv4 provides no mechanism whatever for addresses greater than 32 bits. Therefore, mathematically, there is no

Re: Backwards compatibility myth [Re: Last Call: draft-weil-shared-transition-space-request-14.txt]

2012-02-13 Thread Dave CROCKER
On 2/13/2012 4:38 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: There were very specific reasons why this was not done. Is there a useful citation that covers this strategic decision? Given that that decision was an essential part of what caused a roughly 15 year delay, it would be helpful to have it

Re: Backwards compatibility myth [Re: Last Call: draft-weil-shared-transition-space-request-14.txt]

2012-02-13 Thread Randy Bush
IPv4 provides no mechanism whatever for addresses greater than 32 bits. Therefore, mathematically, there is no possible design for an IP with bigger addresses that is transparently backwards compatible. We've known that since at least 1992. i guess you forget the discussion of variable

Re: Backwards compatibility myth [Re: Last Call: draft-weil-shared-transition-space-request-14.txt]

2012-02-13 Thread Brian E Carpenter
On 2012-02-14 13:42, Dave CROCKER wrote: On 2/13/2012 4:38 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: There were very specific reasons why this was not done. Is there a useful citation that covers this strategic decision? You may recall that at the time, we were very concerned about the pre-CIDR

Re: Backwards compatibility myth [Re: Last Call: draft-weil-shared-transition-space-request-14.txt]

2012-02-13 Thread Noel Chiappa
From: Brian E Carpenter brian.e.carpen...@gmail.com The design error was made in the late 1970s, when Louis Pouzin's advice that catenet addresses should be variable length, with a format prefix, was not taken during the design of IPv4. Ironically, TCP/IP had variable length

Re: Backwards compatibility myth [Re: Last Call: draft-weil-shared-transition-space-request-14.txt]

2012-02-13 Thread Masataka Ohta
Brian E Carpenter wrote: There were very specific reasons why this was not done. And it doesn't change the fact that an old-IP-only host cannot talk to a new-IP-only host without a translator. It is that fact that causes our difficulties today. The fact is that an old-IP-only host can talk to