At 03:49 AM 12/8/00 +0859, Masataka Ohta wrote:
>However, they can't justify to call them internationalization.
precisely.
At 06:21 PM 12/6/00 +, Graham Klyne wrote:
>BTW, the basic tenet of end-to-end connectivity of data and services is, I
>think, satisfied by the IP layer. Part of my question was about the
>extent to which this end-to-end-ness needs to be duplicated at higher layers.
Not sure whether this i
> If the world had asked you or me to design an international
> language, I think either of us would have done better.
Don't be too sure. Even today, there are no more speakers of
Esperanto than of Mayan.
> From: Henk Langeveld <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> You know, it isn't that long ago that I realised that for many Americans,
> "International" is synonymous with "Non-American".
That is as true as the observation that many who learn English as a
second language think that "international" is synonymou
Keith;
> > > you missed it. Suppose you could not exchange in commerce with a person of
> > > a given nationality, not because you did not have a language in common with
> > > him or her, but because your system could not interpret his or her name.
> > > That would mean that you could not spend m
> > you missed it. Suppose you could not exchange in commerce with a person of
> > a given nationality, not because you did not have a language in common with
> > him or her, but because your system could not interpret his or her name.
> > That would mean that you could not spend money in that per
Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 07:23:11 -0500
From: Dave Crocker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
At least the recipient has the unintelligible data well isolated and
labeled. MIME did its job.
Indeed. If I get a mail message which is in HTML only, 99.97% of the
time it's SPAM-mail. And I've lost cou
Keith Moore wrote:
> Furthermore, a
> great many people use multiple languages (not necessarily including
> English) is, so that a given person, host, or subnetwork will often
> need to exist in multiple (potentially competing) locales at once.
Sometimes even in the same sentence. My mother gre
At 08:15 AM 12/4/00 -0500, Dave Crocker wrote:
>On the other hand, this thread was triggered by Graham's question about
>the negative impact of partitioning. The postal example would seem to
>show that the effect is not so bad.
>
>Except I would claim that it is not partitioning. Note that an
The notion that use of languages other than English can or should be
'localized' strikes me as both shockingly arrogant and hopelessly naive.
People can and will use their own languages on the Internet - in email,
on the web, and in domain names, and without regard to their location
in either
At 06:06 PM 12/3/00 -0500, Betsy Brennan wrote:
>But the Internet is not the postal system nor the phone system. We already
>have the postal system and the phone system. They may be slower, but does
>that mean they should be replaced or that the Internet must duplicate what
>these systems do? BLB
At 01:58 AM 12/7/00 -0700, Vernon Schryver wrote:
> > From: Harald Alvestrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > it may have escaped the notice of some that a fair bit of the
> discussion on
> > diacritcs was carried out using live examples,
>
>Diacritical marks are no different from Cyrillic, Arabic, Greek
James Salsman [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
>I don't know why ICANN would want to bring such a heavy burden
>upon themselves in an area of such flux so soon, when they have
>so much else that they have already committed to do.
Dan K says:
Well, the actual announcement at ICANN.Org doesn't really e
> From: Harald Alvestrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >The same thinking that says that MIME Version headers make sense in
> >general IETF list mail also says that localized alphabets and glyphs must
> >be used in absolutely all contexts, including those that everyone must
> >use and so would expect to
At 15:35 06/12/2000 -0700, Vernon Schryver wrote:
>The same thinking that says that MIME Version headers make sense in
>general IETF list mail also says that localized alphabets and glyphs must
>be used in absolutely all contexts, including those that everyone must
>use and so would expect to be l
Masataka Ohta and Vernon Schryver make excellent points in favor
of the domain name status quo. I agree that IDN should be frozen
for at least a few years to see what local domain admins and
application vendors tend to do, especially since the pieces of
the likely solutions (such as the compe
> From: Masataka Ohta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> ...
> > (Can we please move this discussion to the IDN list, where it
> > belongs?)
>
> The point is that IDN WG is purposeless and is wrong to exist. Of
> course, it is waste of time to discuss it in IDN list
Masataka Ohta is raising a point of or
John;
> (Can we please move this discussion to the IDN list, where it
> belongs?)
The point is that IDN WG is purposeless and is wrong to exist. Of
course, it is waste of time to discuss it in IDN list. So, the
only reasonable reaction is to ignore it (I dropped improper CC:).
The only necessar
I can't agree more.
-Original Message-
From: John C Klensin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: 06 December 2000 16:46
To: vint cerf
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Will Language Wars Balkanize the Web?
(Can we please move this discussion to the IDN list, whe
(Can we please move this discussion to the IDN list, where it
belongs?)
--On Wednesday, 06 December, 2000 08:19 -0500 vint cerf
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Mr. Ohta has put his finger on a key point: ability of all
> parties to generate email addresses, web page URLs and so on.
> Even if we int
Mr. Ohta has put his finger on a key point: ability of all
parties to generate email addresses, web page URLs and so on.
Even if we introduce extended character sets, it seems vital
that there be some form of domain name that can be rendered
(and entered) as simple IA4 characters to assure continu
Claus;
> vint cerf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb/wrote:
> > Incorporating other character sets without deep technical
> > consideration will risk the inestimable value of interworking across
> > the Internet. It CAN be done but there is a great deal of work to make
> > it function properly.
>
> Ho
Ran;
> At 02:53 05/12/00, Martin J. Duerst wrote:
> >At 00/12/04 10:42 -0800, Christian Huitema wrote:
> >>So, at a minimum, we need an IETF
> >>specification on how to detect that a domain name part is using a non ascii
> >>encoding, so that DNS servers don't get lost.
> >
> >Why not just use UT
At 18.05 +0900 00-12-05, Martin J. Duerst wrote:
>ACE is (maybe) for machines. It's not primarily intended for humans.
>We may have ACE all the way (including TLD). It might be usable as a
>poor man's ASCII equivalent, but I strongly doubt that anybody will
>want to have it on the Latin side of th
Martin,
I'll send you a copy of the "@sign vs !path" debate from my USENIX papers
archive. See "Pathalias: or The Care and Feeding of Relative Addresses" by
Honeyman and Bellovin, undated, at http://www.uucp.org/papers/pathalias.pdf.
Speculations on the general utility and availability of "singl
"Martin J. Duerst" wrote:
> The mixed case is not too
> important for us, as discussed above.
I think it can be, actually. Suppose you've got someone living in Spain,
whose father is Spanish and whose mother is Japanese. His full surname, then,
is something like Ohta y Montoya (or maybe the ot
> Really big post offices have special places to handle things such
> as incomplete addresses. Nothing guaranteed, but if you are lucky,
> you may even successfully send a letter from an arbitrary place to
> anywhere in the world using local addressing, at least if you don't
> forget the country n
At 02:53 05/12/00, Martin J. Duerst wrote:
>At 00/12/04 10:42 -0800, Christian Huitema wrote:
>>So, at a minimum, we need an IETF
>>specification on how to detect that a domain name part is using a non ascii
>>encoding, so that DNS servers don't get lost.
>
>Why not just use UTF-8? It is an encodi
however the value of the public Internet is surely in its widespread
accessibility and interoperability.
vint
At 05:10 PM 12/5/2000 +0900, Martin J. Duerst wrote:
>I think there is a difference between making it technically possible
>for everybody to participate in whatever community they want,
At 00/12/04 08:15 -0500, Dave Crocker wrote:
>Thank you. I was hoping someone would point out the support for parallel
>operation so we could go further down that path. As you note, it seems to
>be the closest to providing local/global support already.
>
>That means postal gives us:
>
>1. Glo
At 00/12/04 19:58 -0500, Eric Brunner wrote:
> > I guess one of the first questions should be; "Is some partitioning of
> the
> > Internet community such a bad thing?"...
>
>If the "partition" intended for discussion is "@sign vs !path" addressing
>conventions, Eric Allman and Peter Honeyman hav
At 00/12/04 10:42 -0800, Christian Huitema wrote:
>So, at a minimum, we need an IETF
>specification on how to detect that a domain name part is using a non ascii
>encoding, so that DNS servers don't get lost.
Why not just use UTF-8? It is an encoding of the UCS (aka
Unicode/ISO 10646), the encodi
> I guess one of the first questions should be; "Is some partitioning of the
> Internet community such a bad thing?"...
If the "partition" intended for discussion is "@sign vs !path" addressing
conventions, Eric Allman and Peter Honeyman have left a discussion archive
on the subject. Arguably t
> So, at a minimum, we need an IETF
> specification on how to detect that a domain name part is using a non ascii
> encoding, so that DNS servers don't get lost.
We need a great deal more than that.
The real impact of internationalizing DNS names isn't with the DNS
protocol or software itself (
> On Sun, 03 Dec 2000 13:17:45 EST, vint cerf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> > to incorporate and refer to domain names. The IA4 alphabet
> includes essentially
> > just the letters A-Z, numbers 0-9 and the "-" (dash). This
> is the limit of what
> > is allowed in domain names today.
>
> The sad
>Wasn't there a Dilbert cartoon regarding sending a page to a pager number
>containing a caret? ;)
It was a tilde.
;-)
RGF
Robert G. Ferrell, CISSP
Information Systems Security Officer
National Business Center
U. S. Dept. of the Interior
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
==
On Sun, 03 Dec 2000 13:17:45 EST, vint cerf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> to incorporate and refer to domain names. The IA4 alphabet includes essentially
> just the letters A-Z, numbers 0-9 and the "-" (dash). This is the limit of what
> is allowed in domain names today.
The sad part is, of cours
On Sun, 03 Dec 2000 16:00:53 PST, lists <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> "I'm sorry, I'm not going to be able to figure out how to type that email
> address on my keyboard, could you please send me a message, and I'll just hit
> reply".
Wasn't there a Dilbert cartoon regarding sending a page to a pag
At 10:59 PM 12/4/00 +0859, Masataka Ohta wrote:
> > Thank you. I was hoping someone would point out the support for parallel
> > operation so we could go further down that path. As you note, it seems to
> > be the closest to providing local/global support already.
>
>Silly comparison.
Thank you
Dave;
> Thank you. I was hoping someone would point out the support for parallel
> operation so we could go further down that path. As you note, it seems to
> be the closest to providing local/global support already.
Silly comparison.
Efficient postal system works with numbers so called zip
Thank you. I was hoping someone would point out the support for parallel
operation so we could go further down that path. As you note, it seems to
be the closest to providing local/global support already.
That means postal gives us:
1. Global support for a common "character set"
2. Global
At 00/12/03 13:57 -0500, Dave Crocker wrote:
>Would it be such a bad thing to be unable to postal mail a letter or
>package to anywhere in the world?
Of course it would be very bad. But it is usual now to send mail
e.g. from Japan to Japan with an address without any Latin letters.
It is also po
At 00/12/03 08:03 +, Graham Klyne wrote:
>There's a news story at:
>
> http://www.acm.org/technews/articles/2000-2/1201f.html#item10
>
>under the heading "Will Language Wars Balkanize the Web?"
>
>Leaving aside the issues of competing registries,
Sorry,
- Original Message -
From: "lists" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 19:00
Subject: Re: Will Language Wars Balkanize the Web?
>
>
> "I'm sorry, I'm not going to be able to figure out how to type
> "I'm sorry, I'm not going to be able to figure out how to type that email
> address on my keyboard, could you please send me a message, and I'll just hit
> reply".
if the app-presentation -> internal coding -> dns request mapping is not
one:one and reversable on the other end, even this is not
On Sun, Dec 03, 2000 at 04:56:38PM -0500, Kimon A. Andreou wrote:
>
> > You can't address a letter to someone in Berkeley, USA in nagari or
> amharic
> > characters and expect it to reach. However you can address a letter to
> someone
> > in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia in ASCII characters with a poor
Kimon gets a A. Betsy gets an F.
d/
At 03:30 PM 12/3/00 -0500, Kimon A. Andreou wrote:
>But isn't the Internet a medium of communication as is the Post and the
>telephone?
>Therefore, shouldn't it support communication between any two points,
>wherever they may be or however they're called?
>
>
- Original Message -
From: "R . P . Aditya" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 16:20
Subject: Re: Will Language Wars Balkanize the Web?
> You can't address a letter to someone in Berkeley, USA in nagari or
amharic
As has been noted, the _hard part_ is making the protocol that is used between
countries' communications systems "language independent".
> > Would it be such a bad thing to be unable to make a phone call to anywhere
> > in the world?
I have yet to see a telephone dialpad that even has non-arabic
MAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 15:06
Subject: Re: Will Language Wars Balkanize the Web?
> But the Internet is not the postal system nor the phone system. We already
> have the postal system and the phone system. They may be slower, but does
>
> But the Internet is not the postal system nor the phone system. We already
> have the postal system and the phone system. They may be slower, but does
> that mean they should be replaced or that the Internet must duplicate what
> these systems do?
i am sorry, but i can not understand the above
But the Internet is not the postal system nor the phone system. We already
have the postal system and the phone system. They may be slower, but does
that mean they should be replaced or that the Internet must duplicate what
these systems do? BLB
Dave Crocker wrote:
> At 08:03 AM 12/3/00 +,
> I guess one of the first questions should be; "Is some partitioning of the
> Internet community such a bad thing?". Why should it matter if, say,
> Chinese-based domains aimed at Chinese audiences are not meaningfully
> accessible to non-Chinese Internet users?
There's a distinct issue th
AN be done
but there is a great deal of work to make it function properly.
Vint
At 08:03 AM 12/3/2000 +, Graham Klyne wrote:
>There's a news story at:
>
> http://www.acm.org/technews/articles/2000-2/1201f.html#item10
>
>under the heading "Will Language Wars Balkanize
At 08:03 AM 12/3/00 +, Graham Klyne wrote:
>I guess one of the first questions should be; "Is some partitioning of
>the Internet community such a bad thing?".
Would it be such a bad thing to be unable to make a phone call to anywhere
in the world?
Would it be such a bad thing to be unable
At 03:03 03/12/00, Graham Klyne wrote:
>I guess one of the first questions should be; "Is some partitioning of the Internet
>community such a bad thing?"
A partioning based on nationality, which is of course
different than language group, would be harmful. Lack of
interoperability of s
Graham;
> Leaving aside the issues of competing registries, touched upon in that
> article, I had been wondering with the formation of IDN WG how I18N would
> affect cross-character-type-boundary Internet activities.
Nothing.
Cross-character-type-boundary is a pure localization issue
and has
you may want to look at the work going on in the idn wg.
randy
There's a news story at:
http://www.acm.org/technews/articles/2000-2/1201f.html#item10
under the heading "Will Language Wars Balkanize the Web?"
Leaving aside the issues of competing registries, touched upon in that
article, I had been wondering with the formation of IDN WG
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