[ietf-dkim] DKIM and EAI

2017-12-05 Thread John R. Levine
If I may change the topic for a moment ... I'm working on some stuff for ICANN to help people get EAI mail working. One of the underspecified bits of EAI is how authentication works with SPF, DKIM, DMARC and now, I suppose ARC. There's a bunch of places where one needs to make arbitrary

Re: [ietf-dkim] Fwd: SendGrid, GetResponse and Hubspot being used over DKIM "patent"

2017-12-05 Thread Daniel Dreymann
Mark Delany most definitely wrote: > Did the claimants vacuum up the IP of the now defunct Goodmail? Reads > somewhat similar to what they were once trying to sell. Particularly > the "contractual" obligations of the senders. Goodmail indeed sold its patent portfolio, but none of the three

Re: [ietf-dkim] Mailsploit

2017-12-05 Thread Murray S. Kucherawy
On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 2:52 PM, Pawel Lesnikowski wrote: > > DKIM works as expected, but as you said it may re-enforce an incorrect > assumption that email is from respected source. > > Only if it's abused by saying "DKIM signature verified, it's safe!" rather than "

Re: [ietf-dkim] Mailsploit

2017-12-05 Thread Murray S. Kucherawy
I disagree that it's specifically a DMARC issue, because from that I infer that you think DMARC is at fault here, i.e., that you expected it to deal with this. On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 1:44 PM, Steve Atkins wrote: > That's DMARC working exactly as designed but not as

Re: [ietf-dkim] Mailsploit

2017-12-05 Thread Dave Crocker
On 12/5/2017 1:44 PM, Steve Atkins wrote: That's DMARC working exactly as designed but not as commonly understood, which makes it a DMARC issue (though a usability one of unmet expectations rather than anything technical). probably not. it's an anti-abuse issue, where there is quite a bit

Re: [ietf-dkim] Fwd: SendGrid, GetResponse and Hubspot being used over DKIM "patent"

2017-12-05 Thread Roland Turner
On 06/12/17 08:33, Mark Delany wrote: On 06Dec17, Suresh Ramasubramanian allegedly wrote: The pledge idea isn???t terribly novel either Anne Mitchell used a habeas haiku Gosh. The Haiku. How could I have possibly forgotten that beauty! But, if you really want to intimidate spammers with

Re: [ietf-dkim] Fwd: SendGrid, GetResponse and Hubspot being used over DKIM "patent"

2017-12-05 Thread Suresh Ramasubramanian
Works for me. I could never look anything but ridiculous though .. 6 ft 40ish potbellied indian guy sticking his tongue out and trying to look like a scary Maori warrior, nope. --srs > On 06-Dec-2017, at 6:03 AM, Mark Delany wrote: > > Gosh. The Haiku. How could I

Re: [ietf-dkim] Fwd: SendGrid, GetResponse and Hubspot being used over DKIM "patent"

2017-12-05 Thread Mark Delany
On 06Dec17, Suresh Ramasubramanian allegedly wrote: > The pledge idea isn???t terribly novel either > > Anne Mitchell used a habeas haiku Gosh. The Haiku. How could I have possibly forgotten that beauty! But, if you really want to intimidate spammers with poetry I recommend the very effective

Re: [ietf-dkim] Fwd: SendGrid, GetResponse and Hubspot being used over DKIM "patent"

2017-12-05 Thread Suresh Ramasubramanian
The pledge idea isn’t terribly novel either Anne Mitchell used a habeas haiku and then contract law to enforce that any email with that haiku in the headers had to be complaint with anti Spam best practices or would get sued. --srs > On 06-Dec-2017, at 2:20 AM, Mark Delany

Re: [ietf-dkim] Mailsploit

2017-12-05 Thread Grant Taylor
On 12/05/2017 03:52 PM, Pawel Lesnikowski wrote: encoded-words are simply not permitted inside email addresses. MUA shouldn't attempt to decode this at all. Perhaps they shouldn't attempt to decode it per say. I think they should attempt to detect the presence of invalid characters and act

Re: [ietf-dkim] Mailsploit

2017-12-05 Thread Pawel Lesnikowski
> > >> What is "naive" or "incorrect" about the following decoding? > > po...@whitehouse.govpo...@whitehouse.gov@mailsploit.com > > "=?utf-8?b?cG90dXNAd2hpdGVob3VzZS5nb3Y=?=" quite literally does decode to > "po...@whitehouse.gov" > encoded-words are simply not permitted inside email addresses.

Re: [ietf-dkim] Mailsploit

2017-12-05 Thread Steve Atkins
> On Dec 5, 2017, at 2:23 PM, Grant Taylor wrote: > > What's worse, no security, or bad / false security? That's DMARC's motto. Cheers, Steve ___ NOTE WELL: This list operates according to

Re: [ietf-dkim] Mailsploit

2017-12-05 Thread Grant Taylor
On 12/05/2017 02:24 PM, Pawel Lesnikowski wrote: I'm not sure if you noticed but it seems many client are affected by 'mailsploit': https://www.mailsploit.com/index $ReadingList++ Basically the attacker uses special characters inside encoded words to spoof the sender: From:

Re: [ietf-dkim] Mailsploit

2017-12-05 Thread Steve Atkins
> On Dec 5, 2017, at 1:36 PM, Dave Crocker wrote: > > On 12/5/2017 1:33 PM, Steve Atkins wrote: >> It's a DMARC issue rather than a DKIM one. > > > How is it a DMARC issue? From: {spoo-that-expands-to bill...@paypal.com\0}@badpeople.ru will be delivered and (on some

Re: [ietf-dkim] Mailsploit

2017-12-05 Thread John R. Levine
From: =?utf-8?b?cG90dXNAd2hpdGVob3VzZS5nb3Y=?==?utf-8?Q?=00?==?utf-8?b?cG90dXNAd2hpdGVob3VzZS5nb3Y=?=@ mailsploit.com I'm with Steve, this is overclever in a world where most MUAs just show you the From: comment. Regards, John Levine, jo...@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for

Re: [ietf-dkim] Mailsploit

2017-12-05 Thread Dave Crocker
On 12/5/2017 1:33 PM, Steve Atkins wrote: It's a DMARC issue rather than a DKIM one. How is it a DMARC issue? d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net ___ NOTE WELL: This list operates according to

Re: [ietf-dkim] Mailsploit

2017-12-05 Thread Steve Atkins
> On Dec 5, 2017, at 1:24 PM, Pawel Lesnikowski > wrote: > > Hi All, > > I'm not sure if you noticed but it seems many client are affected by > 'mailsploit': > https://www.mailsploit.com/index > > Basically the attacker uses special characters inside encoded words

[ietf-dkim] Mailsploit

2017-12-05 Thread Pawel Lesnikowski
Hi All, I'm not sure if you noticed but it seems many client are affected by 'mailsploit': https://www.mailsploit.com/index Basically the attacker uses special characters inside encoded words to spoof the sender: From:

Re: [ietf-dkim] Fwd: SendGrid, GetResponse and Hubspot being used over DKIM "patent"

2017-12-05 Thread Dave Crocker
On 12/5/2017 12:50 PM, Mark Delany wrote: For moral equivalence, the Date: header is a pledge as to when the email was composed/sent I've done only two user studies in my life. The first -- for the Rand system --produced the email command name 'reply'. The second -- for the DRUMS

Re: [ietf-dkim] Fwd: SendGrid, GetResponse and Hubspot being used over DKIM "patent"

2017-12-05 Thread Mark Delany
On 05Dec17, Steve Atkins allegedly wrote: > > I thought this might be of interest to DKIM implementers. > The Asserted Patents share a common specification. Did the claimants vacuum up the IP of the now defunct Goodmail? Reads somewhat similar to what they were once trying to sell. Particularly

[ietf-dkim] Fwd: SendGrid, GetResponse and Hubspot being used over DKIM "patent"

2017-12-05 Thread Steve Atkins
I thought this might be of interest to DKIM implementers. > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Laura Atkins > > A company called TrueMail is suing the above 3 companies claiming DKIM is an > infringement of 3 patents they own. > > Docs are up: > >