So I went to E3 at the end of last week and did some networking with people. And I found out a number of things. One thing I did was heard some comments from various programmers and also distributors as well as alternatives to Java3D. ---Macromedia--- First thing is, I dont think Macromedias 3d solution is much of a threat to the other 3d solutions. At least I have heard one developer who refered to it as ducktaping 3d on. Who knows maybe its popularity in the interface area will boost it up after a while, but again if you look at 2d web games made for it, in comparison to Java 2d web games, you can probably get the same idea of the quality of procucts. The only time I have seen anything good out of it was the independant plugin The Groove engine. But Lingo is still more limited then Java. ---distribution--- In looking at distribution paths, it seems like RealGames, may be a good path for some developers. They are not a developement platform they are a distribution platform, so they dont necesarily care about what the a game is created with (Macromedia, WildTangent, Java3D or some thing custom) but they have some strict requirements though for their web games in terms of file size (the bandwidth I guess is an issue), and I believe their standalone games they are a little more forgiving in terms of size, but their statistic was that around 68% of their users have 56k modems. They will though look at the game and make sure it does not coincide with their current games, like if they already have a chess game, they will not want to have another chess game, and they have made some aliances with some companies and they will more then likely favor these companies products over someone elses. I believe they are flexible in revenue models. And they will check the game for quality, if they dont feel your game is ready they will more then likely not distribute it. With the deals they are making and some of the issues involved these guys may be a tuff sell. Also it seems that statisticly most game players, play puzzle or card games, not so much action adventure. At least for example if you check out http://www.pogo.com/, you can see that most players prefer those types of games, and RealGames confirmed this by saying their more popular games are those. And also I believe it was said that the majority appears to be women aged 20 something and up. ---Wild Tangent--- The semi bad news in all of this is that, I have decided to move my current game project over to WildTangents Web Driver, and there is many reasons I am going to do this. I am not sure if I will keep going this route, I believe at some point I will come back and certainly I will be keeping an eye on Java3D and doing small projects for various purposes and keeping up to date on it. Number one reason, is that out of all the distribution models out there, they seem to have the nicest, they actual go out and look for places to put content, and they have a number of customers that want games from them, as oposed to RealNetworks whom I believe also is looking for games from WildTangents distribution. Since my financial situation is not rosey I can not afford to experiment so much in the area of distribution. The second reason is time, by the time Java3D is ready for deployment (is easy to distribute on the web through the browser) I will probably be working on either improving/upgrading my game or working on another game project (I have short game developement cycles for web deployment). Maybe by that time I will port it back, or I may wait until Java3D supports boned/skinned geometries, although in my spare time I may do this myself so that by this time I will be able to use it. But who knows maybe also by that time a larger user base will be present and file size will be less of an issue. WildTangent even was able to get itself distributed with computers (no need to download). --comparison The general comparison between Java3D and the Web driver is pretty even (if you dont take distribution in to account). They overlap each other because Java3D has a broad range of use. When you look at it in terms of specific applications, it would seem that the Web driver is better for games for the time being, because it has higher performance supports skinned models has BSP trees built into it and comes with a BSP world building tool, basicly it is best at what it is designed for. Java3D though is good at a lot of things, not just games By far though Java3D is the more flexible of the 2, you are working much deeper into it, and its more intuitive (if I know enough of how it works I can guess how the rest of it works) and Java3D is more broken down and object oriented, while WildTangents stuff is like sitting in front of a few walls and the walls provides all the functionality for you (which is limited), and control most of the internal stuff. I think Java3D is better documented especially considering its size, while WildTangents documentation is kind of punny, some things I found a little confusing. WildTangent allows you to use Visual Basic :p, JavaScript and old Java (the ones that come with the browser), I think it may work with Java2 plugin, but I think the size of it may not be so good to do on top of the size of the web driver, I am using however Java2 and ant to make the source files as long as you dont use anything new, the way I like to work. Debugging is pretty bad in WildTangents Web driver. During my usage of it I came across some really baffling problems that I originally I thought was that the functions were not working, but upon further inspections, I found out it was that an error was occuring but I had no idea it was occuring, except that none of the function after it were working. On top of that it would continue to run even though the error occured, so it was really hard to figure out if there even was an error, or that the documents were not telling you how to use things properly. This one error on my part (in the use of a Java2 Math function that did not work in classic Java) cost me a day because it was so confusing. The art path for WT is a bit awkward but in some ways both are. FYI I am a Lightwave modeler, who exports to Max and does texturemapping and animation in Max (kind like how SGI artists used to use Alias Wavefront for modeling and Softimage for animation as well as RenderMan for rendering). I'll start off with Java3D since it is not that bad. Its art path is bad when it comes to texturemaps with transparency, you can load objects from various formats with the available loaders but cookie-cutter transparency does not seem to be easy to get it in there, I had to break apart my scene and load the cookie-cutter transparent objects seperately and then sift through the objects to set the rendering attributes of all the shape3Ds. Morphing was another issue, the formats available dont have a way to export morphs from Max and import them into Java3D, plus the Java3D format is not entirely done yet. I did create a utility to combine obj files and export them to the j3f format, but it uses a custom version of the j3f, and I noticed that compressed that j3f files can be smaller then obj files. With WildTangent, I had to go through a lot of pain to get the work in and there are still quirks with the way it does it. First the path for importing scenes that are not modeled in their world editor, requires you to first export to 3ds (the old 3d studio format), then use a conversion utility to convert to the X format, then from there use their conversion utility to convert to their compressed format, that is a lot when you realize you jump from Max to a command line utility to their utility before you can even use it. There was a new plugin they have that I tried using for Max to export scenes, but it screwed up because it automaticly centered my object so the object was off, which is OK if you plan to use collision detection but my stuff was going to be custom and required things to be accurate so this plugin was not acceptable. With character exporting its a bit easier and supports boned animations, so the file sizes are a lot smaller, but this plugin also suffers from autocentering which makes it a pain if you dont want that to occure, they do however have you go through the world builder before you can use it but this is not as bad, because this helps you organize and optimize the character and its animations bit more before using it. --summary But above all else, I still think Java3D will be a better solution in the long run. For the short term for me and my situation I have to use WildTangents solution, more notably because the way they distribute the games, we are currently not a big company (there is just 2 of us right now to be more precise) and our time is limited due to financial constraints. I'm sure Java3D will eventually support more features, be easier to install for end users, performance will improve, the available tools will get better, and more platforms will support it. From what I see Java3D there is nothing but going up. In talking with WT at E3, they were more interested in taking advandage of Direct3D, they said they would like to make their engine as polished as possible for the current platform before considering porting it to other platforms, and possibly port it to XBox. In looking at their engine a lot of bits and pieces remind me of Genesis3D which WildTangent had aquired, the world builder looks much better, but it seems to me they have not made any major improvements to the over all engine, most of the same stuff is there. They took it and fixed it up and made it a bit easier, as well as fit it in a browser with Java being able to access it but it seems like they have not done to much to it in terms of architecture. I dont see them moving to far along with it that fast, there may be a lot of issues that are not entirely visible to me right now, but currently that is my assestment. Anway, thanks to those who helped me out with some of my questions in this mailing list. Im not leaving the mailing list I will definetly be monitoring what is going on here but I will probably start posting a lot less here. Some how I feel I should apologize or something, but I dont think this is the end. Leyland Needham =========================================================================== To unsubscribe, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and include in the body of the message "signoff JAVA3D-INTEREST". For general help, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and include in the body of the message "help".
