[Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

Hi all, During my work on diff pairs/matched length tools, I've encountered a rather tricky problem: as the diff pair gap specific to a particular pair of traces is stored nowhere, the shove algorithm will mess up DP coupling after saving and re-loading the board. Ergo: the DP gaps (and possibly o

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

In general, I like the min version idea. It matches many web APIs with including the version number. However, I don't want to have to maintain users who want to run five stable versions old and have them expect their software will still work with new stuff. Adam Wolf On Jan 13, 2015 12:20 PM, "T

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 07:20:42PM +0100, Tomasz Wlostowski wrote: > The problem is that adding any new token to the file format causes all > precedent versions of pcbnew to drop an error attempting to load the > file. I would propose two solutions to overcome this: AFAIK the current policy in kic

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

2015-01-13 19:36 GMT+01:00 Lorenzo Marcantonio : > On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 07:20:42PM +0100, Tomasz Wlostowski wrote: >> The problem is that adding any new token to the file format causes all >> precedent versions of pcbnew to drop an error attempting to load the >> file. I would propose two soluti

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

2015-01-13 19:39 GMT+01:00 Nick Østergaard : > 2015-01-13 19:36 GMT+01:00 Lorenzo Marcantonio : >> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 07:20:42PM +0100, Tomasz Wlostowski wrote: >>> The problem is that adding any new token to the file format causes all >>> precedent versions of pcbnew to drop an error attempti

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

This is a tricky issue that has been discussed before. The general consensus in the past has been not to support forward compatibility. It increases maintenance and complexity of the file parser for a minimal net gain to the user. My preference is to force users that want to bleed on the edge to

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

On 1/13/2015 1:47 PM, Nick Østergaard wrote: > 2015-01-13 19:39 GMT+01:00 Nick Østergaard : >> 2015-01-13 19:36 GMT+01:00 Lorenzo Marcantonio : >>> On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 07:20:42PM +0100, Tomasz Wlostowski wrote: The problem is that adding any new token to the file format causes all pre

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 07:47:25PM +0100, Nick Østergaard wrote: > Which is easy to handle if the file tells the minimum version. Then > there should just be a check if the kicad that reads is new enough, > and it can tell you to update. This will remove the fatal failure, and > we don't have to su

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 02:16:46PM -0500, Wayne Stambaugh wrote: > bit of inconvenience, bandwidth, and time. Once we get the nightly > builds up to snuff for all platforms, I'll feel even less guilty. Also: do we *really* need to keep files made with nightlies compatible with the stable version?

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

2015-01-13 20:24 GMT+01:00 Lorenzo Marcantonio : > On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 02:16:46PM -0500, Wayne Stambaugh wrote: >> bit of inconvenience, bandwidth, and time. Once we get the nightly >> builds up to snuff for all platforms, I'll feel even less guilty. > > Also: do we *really* need to keep files

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 5:20 AM, Tomasz Wlostowski < tomasz.wlostow...@cern.ch> wrote: > Hi all, > > During my work on diff pairs/matched length tools, I've encountered a > rather tricky problem: as the diff pair gap specific to a particular > pair of traces is stored nowhere, the shove algorithm

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

If Cirilo is right, I like that. "Why solve today what you can solve in the future?" :) Adam Wolf On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 2:45 PM, Cirilo Bernardo wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 5:20 AM, Tomasz Wlostowski < > tomasz.wlostow...@cern.ch> wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> During my work on diff pairs

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

Cirilo, I like that. Adam Wolf On Jan 13, 2015 2:45 PM, "Cirilo Bernardo" wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 5:20 AM, Tomasz Wlostowski < > tomasz.wlostow...@cern.ch> wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> During my work on diff pairs/matched length tools, I've encountered a >> rather tricky problem: as the

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 10:38 AM, Adam Wolf wrote: > Cirilo, > > I like that. > > Adam Wolf > > [snip] I'd love to take credit, but numerous software packages use that scheme for file version control and loading. When it's proprietary like SolidWorks you go through hell working around the proble

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

I really like the idea of opening newer files as read only, that will force the user to do a conscious decision to save with data loss, and would practically eliminate the issues of accidental data loss. Also it would accommodate the issue of people using different versions being able to "check out

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 09:44:18PM +0100, Nick Østergaard wrote: > Not sure what you mean there Lorenzo, but what I am advocating is that > kicad would not fail with a cryptic error when it encounters a future > format, and just state this file is incompatible and the user should > upgrade. No back

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

On 13.01.2015 20:11, Wayne Stambaugh wrote: > This is a tricky issue that has been discussed before. The general > consensus in the past has been not to support forward compatibility. It > increases maintenance and complexity of the file parser for a minimal > net gain to the user. My preference

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

On 1/14/2015 11:27 AM, Tomasz Wlostowski wrote: > On 13.01.2015 20:11, Wayne Stambaugh wrote: >> This is a tricky issue that has been discussed before. The general >> consensus in the past has been not to support forward compatibility. It >> increases maintenance and complexity of the file parser

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

(www.nitrodesk.com) -Original Message- From: Wayne Stambaugh [stambau...@gmail.com] Received: Wednesday, 14 Jan 2015, 7:12PM To: Tomasz Wlostowski [tomasz.wlostow...@cern.ch]; kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

Le 14/01/2015 19:32, Miguel Angel Ajo Pelayo a écrit : > As a reference: In other EDA tools they can load newer files on older > versions of the software. They just open a warning window with > everything which is not read/processed, and tell you everything not > readed will be lost at next save.

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

On 1/14/2015 2:13 PM, jp charras wrote: > Le 14/01/2015 19:32, Miguel Angel Ajo Pelayo a écrit : >> As a reference: In other EDA tools they can load newer files on older >> versions of the software. They just open a warning window with >> everything which is not read/processed, and tell you everyt

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 3:27 AM, Tomasz Wlostowski < tomasz.wlostow...@cern.ch> wrote: > On 13.01.2015 20:11, Wayne Stambaugh wrote: > > This is a tricky issue that has been discussed before. The general > > consensus in the past has been not to support forward compatibility. It > > increases ma

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

> On 14 Jan 2015, at 21:07, Cirilo Bernardo wrote: > > > > On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 3:27 AM, Tomasz Wlostowski > wrote: > On 13.01.2015 20:11, Wayne Stambaugh wrote: > > This is a tricky issue that has been discussed before. The general > > consensus in the p

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

My 2c: let the parser ignore unknown/incompatible s-expressions and warn the user when they are encountered. On 14 January 2015 at 22:24, Martijn Kuipers wrote: > > On 14 Jan 2015, at 21:07, Cirilo Bernardo > wrote: > > > > On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 3:27 AM, Tomasz Wlostowski < > tomasz.wlostow..

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

I was talking about Altium in my previous email, and I believe the points you made are quite reasonable (in favor and against). I also didn’t know about the measures of not saving the unchanged defaults, which are quite neat. What about a flag in the loader parameters, disabled by default, but wh

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

On 15.01.2015 23:40, Miguel Ángel Ajo wrote: > I was talking about Altium in my previous email, and I believe > the points you made are quite reasonable (in favor and against). Hi Miguel, Fully agree here. > > I also didn’t know about the measures of not saving the unchanged > defaults, which are

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

In response to a message written on 13.01.2015, 19:20, from Tomasz Wlostowski: Hi all, During my work on diff pairs/matched length tools, I've encountered a rather tricky problem: as the diff pair gap specific to a particular pair of traces is stored nowhere, the shove algorithm will mess up DP

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

On 1/20/2015 12:44 AM, LordBlick wrote: > In response to a message written on 13.01.2015, 19:20, from Tomasz > Wlostowski: >> Hi all, >> >> During my work on diff pairs/matched length tools, I've encountered a >> rather tricky problem: as the diff pair gap specific to a particular >> pair of traces

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 10:19:08AM -0500, Wayne Stambaugh wrote: > I'm not terribly thrilled about that idea. One of the things we have > changed over the years is to move board specific settings out of the > project file and into the board file. This makes the board file more > portable. If you

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

Le 20/01/2015 16:27, Lorenzo Marcantonio a écrit : > On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 10:19:08AM -0500, Wayne Stambaugh wrote: >> I'm not terribly thrilled about that idea. One of the things we have >> changed over the years is to move board specific settings out of the >> project file and into the board f

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

On 20.01.2015 16:19, Wayne Stambaugh wrote: > On 1/20/2015 12:44 AM, LordBlick wrote: >> In response to a message written on 13.01.2015, 19:20, from Tomasz >> Wlostowski: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> During my work on diff pairs/matched length tools, I've encountered a >>> rather tricky problem: as the diff

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

On 1/20/2015 10:27 AM, Lorenzo Marcantonio wrote: > On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 10:19:08AM -0500, Wayne Stambaugh wrote: >> I'm not terribly thrilled about that idea. One of the things we have >> changed over the years is to move board specific settings out of the >> project file and into the board fi

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

In response to a message written on 20.01.2015, 16:19, from Wayne Stambaugh: I think that may be sufficient to add section [gal] to .pro file as usual project setting. In this way you can avoid the next .kicad_pcb format version change. I'm not terribly thrilled about that idea. One of the th

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

On 1/20/2015 10:51 AM, Tomasz Wlostowski wrote: > On 20.01.2015 16:19, Wayne Stambaugh wrote: >> On 1/20/2015 12:44 AM, LordBlick wrote: >>> In response to a message written on 13.01.2015, 19:20, from Tomasz >>> Wlostowski: Hi all, During my work on diff pairs/matched length tools, I

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

On 20.01.2015 17:58, Wayne Stambaugh wrote: > On 1/20/2015 10:51 AM, Tomasz Wlostowski wrote: >> On 20.01.2015 16:19, Wayne Stambaugh wrote: >>> On 1/20/2015 12:44 AM, LordBlick wrote: In response to a message written on 13.01.2015, 19:20, from Tomasz Wlostowski: > Hi all, > >

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

On 1/20/2015 11:04 AM, LordBlick wrote: > In response to a message written on 20.01.2015, 16:19, from Wayne > Stambaugh: >>> I think that may be sufficient to add section [gal] to .pro file as >>> usual >>> project setting. In this way you can avoid the next .kicad_pcb format >>> version change. >>

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

On 1/20/2015 12:07 PM, Tomasz Wlostowski wrote: > On 20.01.2015 17:58, Wayne Stambaugh wrote: >> On 1/20/2015 10:51 AM, Tomasz Wlostowski wrote: >>> On 20.01.2015 16:19, Wayne Stambaugh wrote: On 1/20/2015 12:44 AM, LordBlick wrote: > In response to a message written on 13.01.2015, 19:20,

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

On 20.01.2015 18:42, Wayne Stambaugh wrote: > On 1/20/2015 11:04 AM, LordBlick wrote: >> In response to a message written on 20.01.2015, 16:19, from Wayne >> Stambaugh: I think that may be sufficient to add section [gal] to .pro file as usual project setting. In this way you can avoi

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 04:47:27PM +0100, jp charras wrote: > I am surprising by this sentence: > > the page layout is set for schematic under [schematic_editor] and > *separately set* for the board editor under [pcbnew] Fine then; I didn't notice the change; IIRC there was one setting for both,

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

On 01/20/2015 10:04 AM, LordBlick wrote: In response to a message written on 20.01.2015, 16:19, from Wayne Stambaugh: I think that may be sufficient to add section [gal] to .pro file as usual project setting. In this way you can avoid the next .kicad_pcb format version change. I'm not terrib

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

In response to a message written on 20.01.2015, 18:53, from Tomasz Wlostowski: Is on a kicad roadmap multi-board projecting ? If no, there's no much difference where one board settings are stored, regardlessly of how much work was done… I'm not 100% sure what you mean by multi-board projects.

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

In response to a message written on 20.01.2015, 20:02, from Bob Gustafson: Is on a kicad roadmap multi-board projecting ? If no, there's no much difference where one board settings are stored, regardlessly of how much work was done… The idea of a 'Standalone' board design app is puzzling to me

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

On 01/20/2015 01:37 PM, LordBlick wrote: In response to a message written on 20.01.2015, 20:02, from Bob Gustafson: Is on a kicad roadmap multi-board projecting ? If no, there's no much difference where one board settings are stored, regardlessly of how much work was done… The idea of a 'S

Re: [Kicad-developers] file version compatibility (optional tokens in s-expression files)

In response to a message written on 20.01.2015, 21:15, from Bob Gustafson: The idea of a 'Standalone' board design app is puzzling to me. If there is anything in the project file that has project-wide scope, it seems to me that trying to use the pcbnew application without that information would b