Tony Finch said:
> Halsbury's Laws of England has some interesting (bizarre, self-
> contradictory) paragraphs on the meaning of civil time, which I'll
> append as a postscript because of their length.
I'm going to comment on these, partly because Halsbury is well out of date.
> 215. Local time.
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Steve Allen writes:
>On Wed 2008-11-12T01:12:58 +, Poul-Henning Kamp hath writ:
>The humans will adapt to the name change, even getting it fixed in
>most documents and ancillary software long before the difference
>between TI and UT gets to a few seconds.
Livin
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Rob Seaman writes:
>Meanwhile, the astronomers in this conversation have repeatedly
>demonstrated the willingness to consider new options, [...]
... as long as they get things their way.
None of the proposals from your hand have addressed the problems
of the oth
On Nov 12, 2008, at 6:30 AM, Rob Seaman wrote:
"dawn's early light"
This better fits twilight. Perhaps "crack of dawn"?
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On Wed, 12 Nov 2008, Rob Seaman wrote:
> Clive D.W. Feather wrote:
>
> > No, it's because there are no applications where people need to say "what
> > would my GPS receiver had said in 1751?". Whereas people do need to
> > represent older times in (say) POSIX time.
>
> Do they? Example use case fr
Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
Living in a country that legally still uses 'mean solar time on the
15the eastern longitude' I find this very hard to belive.
We have not even come close to eradicating usage of GMT as an
alias for UTC.
Thanks for emphasizing this point.
I think it is safe to say, t
Clive D.W. Feather scripsit:
> I don't think that R. v Haddock on the meaning of "general purposes" is
> settled law in the UK,
Doubtless not. But, if you will, remind us just which piece of jolly
ligitation that was? There were so many of them
--
With techies, I've generally found
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Rob Seaman writes:
>Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
>
>However, surely the point of coupling TI with the zoneinfo notion -
>just for the sake of argument - is to simply start distributing TI
>instead of UTC. Then UTC - a flavor of Universal Time, an alias for
>Green
On Wed, 12 Nov 2008, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Rob Seaman writes:
> >Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> >
>
> >However, surely the point of coupling TI with the zoneinfo notion -
> >just for the sake of argument - is to simply start distributing TI
> >instead of UTC. Th
John Cowan said:
> Clive D.W. Feather scripsit:
> > I don't think that R. v Haddock on the meaning of "general purposes" is
> > settled law in the UK,
>
> Doubtless not. But, if you will, remind us just which piece of jolly
> ligitation that was? There were so many of them
Drinking is not
Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:And illegal on many systems, including all USGOV owned and operated systems.I thought the ITU had treaty status, therefore that they could decree that we all must henceforth wear Goofy watches that run CCW, and that this sober determination would supersede all other laws of
On Wed, 12 Nov 2008, Rob Seaman wrote:
>
> However, surely the point of coupling TI with the zoneinfo notion - just for
> the sake of argument - is to simply start distributing TI instead of UTC.
> Then UTC - a flavor of Universal Time, an alias for Greenwich Mean Time (which
> as you say is far fr
There have been requests on this list to gather requirements
for civil time keeping. I would like to suggest one. Anyone
who has ever participated in an EBay auction will have noticed
that all the savvy bidders wait to the very end to submit bids.
However, mismatches between the bidder's clock and
Poul-Henning Kamp said:
> Another issue is that exception rules should not trigger so seldom
> that people forget about them.
>
> Again the 400 year rule is exhibit number 1, and exhibit number two
> could be how Sweden failed to follow their own established rules,
> trying to recover from the old
Tony Finch wrote:
On Wed, 12 Nov 2008, Rob Seaman wrote:
However, surely the point of coupling TI with the zoneinfo notion -
just for
the sake of argument - is to simply start distributing TI instead
of UTC.
Then UTC - a flavor of Universal Time, an alias for Greenwich Mean
Time (which
a
Clive D.W. Feather wrote:
My legal research has failed to find any definition in statute of
"sunrise" and "sunset". In particular, it is not clear whether
sunset is when the
(1) upper limb of the sun disappears below
(2) centre of the sun passes
(3) lower limb of the sun first touches
the
(4
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Peter Bunclark writes:
>> And illegal on many systems, including all USGOV owned and operated
>> systems.
>
>So would that mean that any USGOV owned and operated systems not running
>NTP (Window boxes, for example), or those running NTP but are in the
>middle of de
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Gerard Ashton" writes:
>There have been requests on this list to gather requirements
>for civil time keeping. I would like to suggest one. Anyone
>who has ever participated in an EBay auction will have noticed
>that all the savvy bidders wait to the very end to sub
Clive D.W. Feather wrote:
No, it's because there are no applications where people need to say
"what would my GPS receiver had said in 1751?". Whereas people do
need to represent older times in (say) POSIX time.
Do they? Example use case from 1751?
__
On Wed, 12 Nov 2008, Rob Seaman wrote:
>
> Are people really convinced by the argument that badly implemented systems
> should determine policy?
I'm arguing about deployment pragmatics. Note that the systems aren't
badly implemented, they are just following specs based on UT sans leap
seconds.
If
On Wed, 12 Nov 2008, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
>
> Savy auction houses deal with such behaviour by not closing the
> auction "while bidding is ongoing", typically implementing a
> 30 second wait after the most recent bid before closing.
> Why eBay doesn't have always been a mystery to me, people wou
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Rob Seaman writes:
>Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
>
>> And illegal on many systems, including all USGOV owned and operated
>> systems.
>
>I thought the ITU had treaty status, therefore that they could decree
>that we all must henceforth wear Goofy watches that run CC
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Tony F
inch writes:
>On Wed, 12 Nov 2008, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
>>
>> Savy auction houses deal with such behaviour by not closing the
>> auction "while bidding is ongoing", typically implementing a
>> 30 second wait after the most recent bid before closing.
>> Why
Gerry Ashton wrote:
> There have been requests on this list to gather requirements
> for civil time keeping. I would like to suggest one. Anyone
>
> Let me summarize my requirement:
>
>The legal definition of time shall be sufficiently
>unambiguous that those with adequate equipment will
>
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Steve Allen writes:
>Standards and laws are commonly disregarded, especially when those
>ignore the practicalities of reality.
>
>Worrying about the effect on the documentation aspects of deployed
>systems did not stop the CCIR from declaring a change to leap second
Rob Seaman scripsit:
> I thought the ITU had treaty status, therefore that they could decree
> that we all must henceforth wear Goofy watches that run CCW, and that
> this sober determination would supersede all other laws of God and man.
Even if it were a treaty rather than an IGO, treaties
I'm just stating a requirement. I leave open the possibility that other
requirements might be more stringent, thus making
my requirement redundant.
Gerry Ashton
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of christopher hoover
Sent: Wednesday, November 1
Poul-Henning Kamp scripsit:
> >They'd never be able to close any auctions :-)
>
> They would, it works fine in most real-life auction houses.
Real-life auction rooms don't routinely have tens of active bidders
for a particular item. Waiting does not scale.
--
MEET US AT POINT ORANGE AT MIDN
On Wed, 12 Nov 2008, Gerard Ashton wrote:
> There have been requests on this list to gather requirements
> for civil time keeping. I would like to suggest one. Anyone
> who has ever participated in an EBay auction will have noticed
> that all the savvy bidders wait to the very end to submit bids
Gerard Ashton said:
> This would make the current
> civil time definitions inadequate, because at least one country,
> the UK, specifies Greenwich Mean Time as their basis of civil time
> and failed to address proposals to clarify whether this means
> UT1 or UTC.
You fail to understand what they a
I consider the matter of whether for civil time-keeping purposes,
GMT is, or is not, UTC, is unresolved until the highest court in
the UK rules on a case where the difference is important. Courts
sometimes pay more attention to conduct than words, and I gather
that most clocks in the UK are set acc
Standards and laws are commonly disregarded, especially when those
ignore the practicalities of reality.
Worrying about the effect on the documentation aspects of deployed
systems did not stop the CCIR from declaring a change to leap seconds
in 1970.
During the 1960s the CCIR was recommending tha
Steve Allen said:
> Here's an interesting point. Nobody misinterprets GPS time.
> Nobody tries to extrapolate it backwards and make algorithms
> about proleptic GPS time. That's because GPS time simply
> did not exist prior to 1980-01-06. Nobody can screw it up
> because GPS time is exactly and
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, John Cowan writes:
>Poul-Henning Kamp scripsit:
>
>> >They'd never be able to close any auctions :-)
>>
>> They would, it works fine in most real-life auction houses.
>
>Real-life auction rooms don't routinely have tens of active bidders
>for a particular item. W
Just back from the dentist and can't possibly spare the time to read
all the intervening messages with the attention they deserve, so I'll
just recommend (highly!) the book I'm currently reading:
"The Stuff of Thought", by Steven Pinker
And pass on a lovely quote from Immanuel Kant t
Clive D.W. Feather scripsit:
> With two-bis being the misinterpretation of "every four years" in the
> Julian calendar, so that Feb 29th was added every *three* years for some
> time (Wikipedia suggests the most likely sequence was 44, 41, 38, 35, 32,
> 29, 26, 23, 20, 17, 14, 11, 8 BC, then a hia
Clive D.W. Feather scripsit:
> > > I don't think that R. v Haddock on the meaning of "general purposes" is
> > > settled law in the UK,
> >
> > Doubtless not. But, if you will, remind us just which piece of jolly
> > ligitation that was? There were so many of them
>
> Drinking is not a "g
Peter Bunclark scripsit:
> So would that mean that any USGOV owned and operated systems not running
> NTP (Window boxes, for example), or those running NTP but are in the
> middle of dealing with a leapsecond, are being illegally operated?
Modern Windows boxes do indeed do NTP, or rather SNTP.
-
The adoption of TI would be massive and immediate.
And illegal on many systems, including all USGOV owned and operated
systems.
Are you sure you want to be commenting on what is and is not legal
on US computers when you post from a .dk address?
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Rob Seaman writes:
I thought USA went out of their way some years back, to make it
clear that the relevant secretary (of commerce ?) decided what
US timekeeping was and that it certainly had nothing to do with GMT ?
Or was that laying the ground for US unlateral a
On Wed, 12 Nov 2008, Jonathan E. Hardis wrote:
> * Who can cite case law, where a court has had to decide an actual
> controversy on timekeeping? (Courts don't deal with hypothetical
> controversies or arguments over trivia. De minimis non curat lex.)
Curtis v. March, cited earlier in
- Original Message -
From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Leap Second Discussion List"
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 10:58 AM
Subject: Re: [LEAPSECS] Synchronization requirement
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, John Cowan writes:
Poul-Henning Kamp scripsit:
>The
- Original Message -
From: "Rob Seaman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Leap Second Discussion List"
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 6:48 AM
Subject: Re: [LEAPSECS] The relation between calendars and leap seconds.
On Nov 12, 2008, at 6:30 AM, Rob Seaman wrote:
"dawn's early light"
T
On Wed 2008-11-12T09:04:31 +, Clive D.W. Feather hath writ:
> My legal research has failed to find any definition in statute of "sunrise"
> and "sunset".
Sunset?
To quote from Buffy the Vampire Slayer "DoubleMeat Palace":
It's a process.
As seen in the following link, especially in the first
Brian Garrett wrote:
I was wondering when somebody was going to mention sniper bids.
These are automated and require reliable synchronization so as to
get bids in at literally the very last second.
[...]
laws that reference civil time to actual timescales, instead of
"mean solar time of 1
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