Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

On 10/05/2012 05:51 AM, Patrick wrote: > I'd better not answer this. I should wind things down now. The FSF > foundation and it's members care about free software but the scope of > concerns stops there. FSF compatible licences do not protect charitable > software from becoming for-profit, period.

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

Le 04/10/2012 19:33, Patrick a écrit : Thanks so much for taking the time to put together this detailed email. This will take some time to analyze. I really appreciate your time-Patrick You're welcome. I forgotten: my opinion on (any, but especially that) kind of project is that publicit

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

How many cases are there of devils charging ££ for FLOSS and how much of a problem have they been? What about sites (like source forge.) that make money by ads. Are you going to forbid them redistributing your software? I guess you should also include that this condition does not apply to forks

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

Ok, I try a (long) short on the thread responses: 0) whatever closed/sewing on infringement/fs license solution, there could be unlikely some robberies, also ideas themselves cannot be copyrighted and you will experience clones if there is a market. 1) As I said, VIM /is a charity-ware/ whi

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

[copy to poster] Le 03/10/2012 23:54, Patrick a écrit : My posts are confusing because I have two projects. Let me just stick to the charity one for now. I don't want parents of autistic children to have to pay for the software I am going to write to try to help them. Right now the only way i

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

On 12-10-04 12:14 PM, Felipe T. R. Tovar wrote: libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org Patrick, suppose somebody gets your code and implements improvements on it, and want to be paid for this, you would disallow somebody to charge for their work? By restricting your software to be redistributed

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

scuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s) To: libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org Date: Thursday, October 4, 2012, 7:55 AM On 04/10/12 12:37, luke.leighton wrote: >   a non-free software license and also non-GPL licenses can be viewed > as coercion.  you're for

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 2:56 PM, Patrick wrote: > On 12-10-03 05:50 PM, Ramana Kumar wrote: > > Another attempt at a summary, and a plea for focussed clarification. > > Patrick has written/will write two pieces of software, A and B. > Patrick's wishes: > > Users of A do not pay for using it. > User

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

On 04/10/12 12:37, luke.leighton wrote: a non-free software license and also non-GPL licenses can be viewed as coercion. you're forcing people to pay, rather than offering them the opportunity to pay open-heartedly. I think you're getting him wrong here. Patrick wants to avoid that parents

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

On 10/04/2012 10:52 AM, Patrick wrote: > All you are doing is looking down on people, it's useless > I would be interested to know how it is that FSF is preventing you from writing a license that serves your absurd desires? Refusing to do your work for you is not the same as "locking you down."

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

Patrick writes: > And that's why the FSF is a sinking ship > > > http://developers.slashdot.org/story/11/12/17/1735253/gpl-copyleft-use-declining-fast > You should read the information that conclusion is based on. Except you won't be able to, because the data isn't published and neither is the m

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

Patrick said: > And that's why the FSF is a sinking ship You may find this interesting then: http://faif.us/cast/2012/feb/28/0x23/ signature.asc Description: PGP signature

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

It goes against the mission of this mailing list as an FSF project to help anyone find a license meeting this criteria: Then I give up. But in closing, if you are not making incremental progress towards your goals then you won't reach them. It's sad that BSD is gaining traction. It's much

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

I think that, at least in this case, your problem is not a license one but an advertizing one in the case someone would sold your soft. ^^ 03 at 10:02 PM (UTC), "Patrick" wrote: > On 12-10-03 05:59 PM, cryp...@nym.hush.com wrote: > > I usually din't but I juste have to interact : in case A, >

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

On 12-10-03 06:00 PM, Mark Holmquist wrote: Also, that CC-NC-* are also not free licenses, so we're back where we started, at an off-topic conversation! :) and your back to throwing anyone who does not meet your exceptions into the street. You're looking down on us a lot--all I'm saying is, w

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

On Wed, 2012-10-03 at 22:50 +0100, Ramana Kumar wrote: > > Everyone else, write specific ways to realise his wishes and/or > specific inaccuracies in his assumptions or faults of reasoning > therefrom. It goes against the mission of this mailing list as an FSF project to help anyone find a licen

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

On 12-10-03 05:59 PM, cryp...@nym.hush.com wrote: I usually din't but I juste have to interact : in case A, do you realise that closing your software will also be a bad things for the parents and children you try to protect ? they will not be allow / able to modify or adapt your soft to their

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

Also, that CC-NC-* are also not free licenses, so we're back where we started, at an off-topic conversation! :) and your back to throwing anyone who does not meet your exceptions into the street. You're looking down on us a lot--all I'm saying is, we should stick to the topic of the list. Thi

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

I usually din't but I juste have to interact : in case A, do you realise that closing your software will also be a bad things for the parents and children you try to protect ? they will not be allow / able to modify or adapt your soft to their needs if source are unavailable. If anything happe

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

On 12-10-03 05:50 PM, Ramana Kumar wrote: Another attempt at a summary, and a plea for focussed clarification. Patrick has written/will write two pieces of software, A and B. Patrick's wishes: 1. Users of A do not pay for using it. 2. Users of B know that Patrick wrote B. Patrick's assumptio

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

On 12-10-03 05:49 PM, Patrick Anderson wrote: Patrick wrote: I want the code to be used by end users in any way except to resell for a profit What do you hope to solve by stopping the resale of software for a profit? How does selling Free Software hurt you or anyone else? Hi Patrick My post

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

On 12-10-03 05:42 PM, Mark Holmquist wrote: The problem is that the CC licences are not intended for use with software. It sounds like they won't hold up in court. Also, that CC-NC-* are also not free licenses, so we're back where we started, at an off-topic conversation! :) and your back to

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

Another attempt at a summary, and a plea for focussed clarification. Patrick has written/will write two pieces of software, A and B. Patrick's wishes: 1. Users of A do not pay for using it. 2. Users of B know that Patrick wrote B. Patrick's assumptions: 1. His wishes are best realised

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

Patrick wrote: > I want the code to be used by end users > in any way except to resell for a profit What do you hope to solve by stopping the resale of software for a profit? How does selling Free Software hurt you or anyone else?

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

On 12-10-03 05:42 PM, Patrick Anderson wrote: Patrick wrote: I have thought about selling binaries and source without makefiles. I'm confused why you want to distribute the source at all... If you don't want anyone to ever build the project, then what good does the source code do for those who

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

On 12-10-03 05:40 PM, Patrick Anderson wrote: Patrick wrote: I want to find another licence that provides all possible freedoms for end users but does not open doors of oppression for crooks. Are the distributors crooks only because they are charging money for those copies? What if they give

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

Patrick wrote: > I have thought about selling binaries and > source without makefiles. I'm confused why you want to distribute the source at all... If you don't want anyone to ever build the project, then what good does the source code do for those who receive it?

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

Thank you Michael Yes, this is a correct assessment. The problem is that the CC licences are not intended for use with software. It sounds like they won't hold up in court. On 12-10-03 05:36 PM, Michael Mehrazar wrote: I believe the question can be boiled down to this: Is there a software

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

Patrick wrote: > I want to find another licence that provides > all possible freedoms for end users but does > not open doors of oppression for crooks. Are the distributors crooks only because they are charging money for those copies? What if they give your program away without collecting money?

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

And that's why the FSF is a sinking ship http://developers.slashdot.org/story/11/12/17/1735253/gpl-copyleft-use-declining-fast On 12-10-03 05:37 PM, Ted Smith wrote: On Wed, 2012-10-03 at 17:33 -0400, Patrick wrote: Hi Mark, Hi Ted Again this is your with us or against us. Regardless of the

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

On Wed, 2012-10-03 at 17:33 -0400, Patrick wrote: > Hi Mark, Hi Ted > > Again this is your with us or against us. Regardless of the licence, if > the code ships with source code am I not somewhere up the ladder from > closed source, am I not? No, you aren't. "Free software" is a term defined he

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

I believe the question can be boiled down to this: Is there a software equivalent to Creative Commons Attribution + Noncommercial + ShareAlike license? I am not aware of any such license. However, I think that although such a license would not be considered "free" under FSF's definition, I do fee

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

Hi Mark, Hi Ted Again this is your with us or against us. Regardless of the licence, if the code ships with source code am I not somewhere up the ladder from closed source, am I not? Can you not come down from your Ivory tower and help me to find an alternative to closed source software(whic

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

Exactly!!! I want to find another licence that provides all possible freedoms for end users but does not open doors of oppression for crooks. "All possible freedoms", sadly, includes reselling copies. You're making totally incompatible demands here! If you want to produce free software, use a

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

On Wed, 2012-10-03 at 17:13 -0400, Patrick wrote: > "This is not a "betrayal of charitable efforts." This is the free > software culture working as intended." > > ask the GIMP developers then: > > "IMPORTANT: GIMP AND OPENSOURCE SCAM ON *EBAY*! >

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

On 12-10-03 05:20 PM, Patrick Anderson wrote: Obviously many people feel betrayed. Why people choose the GNU GPL if it does not do what they expect? If artisans want their work available under different terms, then why not just choose a different license? If the GNU GPL does not accomplish you

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

> Obviously many people feel betrayed. Why people choose the GNU GPL if it does not do what they expect? If artisans want their work available under different terms, then why not just choose a different license? If the GNU GPL does not accomplish your goals, then why not just use some other lice

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

On 12-10-03 04:43 PM, Rudolf wrote: It seems like you're complaining that you'll have to face competition. Yes it's hard to compete with larger companies but maybe you should cross that bridge when you come to it. This is a hard problem that other projects face as you've pointed out. They s

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

"This is not a "betrayal of charitable efforts." This is the free software culture working as intended." ask the GIMP developers then: "IMPORTANT: GIMP AND OPENSOURCE SCAM ON *EBAY*! " http://gim

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

It seems like you're complaining that you'll have to face competition. Yes it's hard to compete with larger companies but maybe you should cross that bridge when you come to it. This is a hard problem that other projects face as you've pointed out. They simply issue warnings about downloading from

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

On Wed, 2012-10-03 at 16:24 -0400, Patrick wrote: > > If I offer two streams what's to stop the business from using the > non-commercial version? > > > > Most businesses will not like the idea of selling or modifying gpl > > software so they'll be open to paying for a different license to be >

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

On Wed, 2012-10-03 at 16:29 -0400, Patrick wrote: > On 12-10-03 01:51 PM, Jason Self wrote: > > Patrick said: > > > >> Parents of autistic kids are already under > >> enormous stress and most won't end up knowing there was a free as in > >> beer alternative. parisites will swoop in an screw over th

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

On Wed, 2012-10-03 at 16:33 -0400, Patrick wrote: > Please > help me find another licence that will help me to help people. > > This is an FSF mailing list. You will not find anyone to help you find a non-free license to use. -- Sent from Ubuntu signature.asc Description: This is a digitall

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

On 12-10-03 02:38 PM, Jason Self wrote: Patrick GPL is very wrong for me This isn't actually a GPL issue. Any free software license that you select -- whether it's copyleft or not -- must by definition [1] allow for people to distribute copies for a fee if they want to. [1] http://www.gnu.o

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

On 12-10-03 01:51 PM, Jason Self wrote: Patrick said: Parents of autistic kids are already under enormous stress and most won't end up knowing there was a free as in beer alternative. parisites will swoop in an screw over the parents by sellign them the software. It's good that you're concerne

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

Hi Rudolf Since you are distributing the code yourself you can offer the binary and sources for free. If a competitor wants to sell your software it is *still* available from your own website. Yes but this is where the advertising dollars matter. If no one knows it originally came from me

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

Patrick > GPL is very wrong for me This isn't actually a GPL issue. Any free software license that you select -- whether it's copyleft or not -- must by definition [1] allow for people to distribute copies for a fee if they want to. [1] http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html > I hope to fi

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

Hi Ramana I am not good at writing in as few words as possible... "You want people to use your software (and derivatives?) without paying for it." Yes, without having to pay for it. With both projects, If the software was to be free as in beer forever, it would solve problems. Parents wouldn

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

Patrick said: > Parents of autistic kids are already under > enormous stress and most won't end up knowing there was a free as in > beer alternative. parisites will swoop in an screw over the parents by > sellign them the software. It's good that you're concerned that people might be taken adv

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

For the second project I think GPL is the right license: by law anyone using its code or part of the code must show the "based upon $project created by $you" line, also you can get revenue by both selling binaries (with the source attached) and providing support. For the first one GPL is also

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

I just realized that this list seems to be set up so that relies are sent as private messages. i was hoping to keep the discussion on list. I hope you don't mind me posting this Thomas. Well, I'm aware of problem one person has pay for a Dia cdrom copy, and she didn't aware it was avail

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

Rudolf said > The only way to guarantee that your name will appear prominently in the > user interface is to use a different license when dealing with businesses. Not really. Attribution is an optional feature in Section 7 of GPLv3. signature.asc Description: PGP signature

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

On Oct 3, 2012 9:33 AM, "Patrick" wrote: > It's still in the planning stage but once complete, I do not want it to be sold but to be free as in beer forever. If I understand things correctly to be a FSF approved licence, the licence must allow for resale, I won't allow this. Parents of autistic ki

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

I don't understand how making your software non-free is solving your problems. These are the problems you said you have: 1. You want people to use your software (and derivatives?) without paying for it. 2. You want credit for your software, in particular, that any people using it can

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

Hi Michal I think no legal solution will solve this problem completely (e.g. you can buy illegally copied discs with proprietary software). A license that allows selling and requires including appropriate attribution notices could solve that misinformation problem in some cases. You want parent

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

> It's still in the planning stage but once complete, I do not want it > to be sold but to be free as in beer forever. If I understand things > correctly to be a FSF approved licence, the licence must allow for > resale, I won't allow this. Parents of autistic kids are already under > enormous stre

[libreplanet-discuss] help with FSF incompatible but community oriented licence(s)

Hi Everyone I hope this post won't upset anyone. I have been going around in circles with free software licences for a few years now. I have posted to FSF on IRC and pretty much received a message of GPL is the way to go for nearly everyone including me. Unfortunately it is not right for m