[Lightning-dev] Selling Signatures: Another Reason to Move to Payment Points

2019-07-17 Thread Nadav Kohen
Hi All, I recently posted a proposal here for a scheme through which a trusted data provider can utilize the Lightning Network to privately sell data where data is received atomically with purchase. I've more recently been thinking about situations where a party, that is *not* trusted, is attempt

Re: [Lightning-dev] Selling Signatures: Another Reason to Move to Payment Points

2019-07-17 Thread Lloyd Fournier
Hi Nadav, This is cool idea. I always imagined oracles would either give their DLC signatures away for free or work via a subscription model. The downside to this proposal is that the seller of the signature knows which signature they're selling and therefore learns what kind of contract the buye

Re: [Lightning-dev] Selling Signatures: Another Reason to Move to Payment Points

2019-07-17 Thread Nadav Kohen
Hi Lloyd, Glad you like it :) And to address your concern, I think that although certainly it is possible for oracles to sell options contracts, it is also possible to have a more decentralized setup with normal DLC oracles (that can be used for all kinds of things as all they do is schnorr sign m

Re: [Lightning-dev] Paper: A Composable Security Treatment of the Lightning Network

2019-07-17 Thread Lloyd Fournier
Hi Orfeas, Thanks for formally modelling lightning and posting your paper here. I've taken a brief look at the paper so far. I am a UC novice and have no academic background so please take that into account when interpreting my comments. In general, I am glad that you are taking the approach to mo

Re: [Lightning-dev] Selling Signatures: Another Reason to Move to Payment Points

2019-07-17 Thread Lloyd Fournier
Hi Nadav, Interesting. Is there a writeup anywhere of this CET idea that I can add to my reading list. I feel like I am missing some background. LL On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 2:56 AM Nadav Kohen wrote: > Hi Lloyd, > > Glad you like it :) And to address your concern, I think that although > certai

Re: [Lightning-dev] Selling Signatures: Another Reason to Move to Payment Points

2019-07-17 Thread Nadav Kohen
Here is a pretty comprehensive write-up on how to make a DLC: https://medium.com/crypto-garage/p2p-protocol-based-crypto-asset-derivative-settled-in-bitcoin-on-discreet-log-contracts-13c823448ae8 I believe they also put the txid and such of their CET so you can find the actual script in a block exp

Re: [Lightning-dev] Paper: A Composable Security Treatment of the Lightning Network

2019-07-17 Thread Miller, Andrew
This is a really great question. You are totally right to notice that on-chain transactions are a difference between the real and ideal world and hence can lead to distinguishability... this is something we're actively working on clarifying for Sprites/SaUCy. To give a somewhat fuzzy answer of h

Re: [Lightning-dev] Selling Signatures: Another Reason to Move to Payment Points

2019-07-17 Thread Nadav Kohen
I've gotten a couple questions about the payment point idea. Here are the threads I've seen where ZmnSCPxj mentions payment points may help: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2019-June/002028.html https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2019-June/002030.htm

Re: [Lightning-dev] Selling Signatures: Another Reason to Move to Payment Points

2019-07-17 Thread ZmnSCPxj via Lightning-dev
Good morning Nadav, I strongly disagree that I first proposed payment points + scalars for Lightning. My understanding is that Andrew Poelstra first proposed this. Indeed, his work on Scriptless Script was, to my understanding, primarily motivated by a goal of eventually enabling Lightning over

[Lightning-dev] [PROPOSAL] Removal of proposal to make CSV delay symmetric

2019-07-17 Thread Rusty Russell
Hi all, In Adelaide we proposed that CSV delays be symmetric; that the to-self output would be delayed to avoid weird "no, you close!" games. Unfortunately, Roasbeef points out that this undermines the great strength of the option_static_remotekey, which allows a disaster-recovery