Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

Hi, I didn’t follow all of the discussion. But how about a summary at place where it can be found and used later? It seems like this won’t go into the lilypond code right now. From what I read, there are spacings that are good, some are debatable and some are agreed that they are not good (accordi

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

On 11/11/2013 07:21 PM, Gilberto Agostinho wrote: Peter Bjuhr wrote Based on these two examples, it would indeed seem that LilyPond is intelligent enough to adjust for this potential problem; in the first example where there were no risk of mistakenly take the accidental for a part of the key s

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

2013/11/11 David Kastrup : > > I don't see a point in continuing this. It is obvious that I am wildly > unsuccessful providing any help for understanding how the dynamics in > this mailing list and LilyPond development work: it would appear that it > would have been much easier for you and less di

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

bout the spacing, as I stated before on the message you "claim" to have > read, "I am no programmer on this level and on this particular case I do not > know how to improve it. ". On top of that, in the first message of this > post, I added the files spacing.ly an

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

I don't see a point in continuing this. It is obvious that I am wildly unsuccessful providing any help for understanding how the dynamics in this mailing list and LilyPond development work: it would appear that it would have been much easier for you and less discouraging to learn this by yourself

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

I think would be best. - In the "sister" post about bar numbers, I posted my tweaks in an image bar_no.png. Nobody seemed interested in that, but if anyone wants, I am happy to share my code. So tell me please what is still """strange""" here? -- View this me

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

Gilberto Agostinho writes: > Regardless of that, I really hope I didn't gave the impression I want > to force people to change certain things on LilyPond only because of > what I think. Why would you want them to do anything other than what you think? > I already exposed my thoughts, and that i

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

do. Take care and thanks for all your replies, Gilberto -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Beam-positions-and-time-signature-spacing-tp153538p153770.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

On 11/11/2013 12:53 PM, Gilberto Agostinho wrote: Although I agree with you that these things are important, there are certain things that could make problems clearer and are not used. Ex: it is not standard to write a little "8" under the bass clef when dealing with Contrabass in a non-transpo

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

have pretty much the same spacing (around 1.4 units). So I don't think LilyPond is adjusting for potential misunderstandings. Best, Gilberto -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Beam-positions-and-time-signature-spacing-tp153538p153764.html Sent fr

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

On 11/11/2013 05:35 PM, Gilberto Agostinho wrote: Here we go: As you can see, the distances here are roughly 1 and 1.5 units, while the example I posted before ("with clef and with more accidentals") has a distance of merely 0.5 u

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

st, Gilberto -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Beam-positions-and-time-signature-spacing-tp153538p153739.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@g

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

On 11/11/2013 12:53 PM, Gilberto Agostinho wrote: Here the accidental could be mistakenly taken for a part of the key signature if it's too close. (The example appears fine to me when I compile it, but I would like to mention it anyway.) I think the worst case on my .PNG image was the one "with

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

- Original Message - From: "Kieren MacMillan" To: "Phil Holmes" Cc: "Urs Liska" ; "Lilypond-User Mailing List" Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 3:33 PM Subject: Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing Hi Phil, > Early music tend

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

Hi Phil, > Early music tends to work like that Really? What editions are you using? I’ve spent a great deal of my life singing and conducting music composed and/or engraved before ca. 1920, and have found it almost invariably uses *beaming* (as well as slurs and extensions, sometimes) to indic

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

- Original Message - From: "Kieren MacMillan" To: "Phil Holmes" Cc: "Urs Liska" ; "Lilypond-User Mailing List" Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 3:10 PM Subject: Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing Phil: > [if] you don&

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

Phil: > [if] you don't use slurs to indicate melisma, how do you indicate it - > especially with crochets, minims and semi-breves? Lyric extenders are necessary and (to some eyes) sufficient. Slurs are simply “suspenders and a belt”… and I happen to be one of those who vigorously ensure that m

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

- Original Message - From: "Urs Liska" To: Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 2:45 PM Subject: Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing Am 11.11.2013 15:34, schrieb Phil Holmes: === Not sure which practice you hate: slurs or b

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

Hi Gilberto, 2013/11/11 Janek Warchoł : > 2013/11/11 Gilberto Agostinho : >> David Kastrup wrote >>> It also sends out a more serious variant of the message "this is >>> important to me" without the accompanying "so this should make you want >>> to do the work". It's in general much easier to get

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

Hi Phil, > Properly entered, Sibelius does automatically provide lyric extensions. 1. Then the vast majority of the Sibelius scores I’ve seen in the last five years have been improperly entered. 2. Improperly entered, Lilypond doesn’t automatically provide lyric extensions either. ;) Cheers,

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

- Original Message - From: "Kieren MacMillan" To: "Phil Holmes" Cc: "Urs Liska" ; "Lilypond-User Mailing List" Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 2:41 PM Subject: Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing Not sure which practice you hate:

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

2013/11/11 Gilberto Agostinho : > David Kastrup wrote >> It also sends out a more serious variant of the message "this is >> important to me" without the accompanying "so this should make you want >> to do the work". It's in general much easier to get something done by >> doing it than by telling

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

Am 11.11.2013 15:34, schrieb Phil Holmes: - Original Message - From: "Kieren MacMillan" To: "Urs Liska" Cc: "Lilypond-User Mailing List" Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 2:12 PM Subject: Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing In 19th century s

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

> Not sure which practice you hate: slurs or beams? For myself, a singer who > sings for 10s of hours a week, I like slurs to indicate melisma and think > beaming for the same purpose is irritating in the extreme. Sorry, I was definitely unclear: I, like you, intensely dislike the practice of b

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

changed, that would > be very good. Discussions about concrete proposals *with* the code > change are much different than discussions without the code. I will check that, thanks for the tip. Take care, Gilberto -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Beam-p

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

- Original Message - From: "Kieren MacMillan" To: "Urs Liska" Cc: "Lilypond-User Mailing List" Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 2:12 PM Subject: Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing In 19th century song notation (e.g. look at all old Peters edit

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

opinions on what should be or shouldn't be modified? Fine. I never wanted to force any one to do things on my own way. Regards, Gilberto -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Beam-positions-and-time-signature-spacing-tp153538p153719.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

> In 19th century song notation (e.g. look at all old Peters editions of > Schubert/Schumann etc. songs) slurs were used to indicate melismas - but they > were usually used _in combination_ with beams. It’s not just "19th century notation": it persisted as the standard in operas and musicals wr

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

Am 11.11.2013 14:12, schrieb Janek Warcho?: Another example: for centuries, it was the standard in vocal music to only beam together notes that are part of a melisma. Now, there was some reason behind it - to make clear what was a melisma and what wasn't - but that practice was nevertheless a ba

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

Janek Warchoł writes: > So, standards change. If that's the case, we can be a forefront of > such changes. In the case of the measure numbers, this change causes less effective use of a rectangular printing area. In the age of digital print, the role of a bounding box has changed. I am not su

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

2013/11/11 David Kastrup : > Gilberto Agostinho writes: > >> Although I agree with you that these things are important, there are >> certain things that could make problems clearer and are not used. Ex: >> it is not standard to write a little "8" under the bass clef when >> dealing with Contrabass

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

Hi, 2013/11/11 Gilberto Agostinho : > Peter Bjuhr wrote >> What she is aiming at throughout the book >> is clarity and readability of the notation especially in a performance >> situation. > > Although I agree with you that these things are important, there are certain > things that could make pro

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

Gilberto Agostinho writes: > Although I agree with you that these things are important, there are > certain things that could make problems clearer and are not used. Ex: > it is not standard to write a little "8" under the bass clef when > dealing with Contrabass in a non-transposed orchestral sc

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

t;with clef and with more accidentals", where there is basically no spacing at all between the clef and the accidentals! The example you posted also seems to me to be rather close to the key signature. Best regards! Gilberto -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabb

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

On 11/10/2013 12:36 PM, David Kastrup wrote: One should never _discard_ what an authority has to say and should try tracking its reasoning, but if the results from following instructions don't actually lead to convincing results (in particular when comparing them with the printed results), one

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

dak wrote > So obviously one quotes _only_ what is immediately relevant to the reply. Sorry, I will be more careful from now on. Thanks for pointing it out. -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Beam-positions-and-time-signature-spacing-tp153538p153662.h

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

Gilberto Agostinho writes: > Sorry for the confusion, I am used to simply go to nabble.com to post, > answer or simply check what is going on with LilyPond, and I realize > now that by merely clicking "reply" to someone's message is not enough > to find out where the reply was aimed (there are no

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

Patrick or Cynthia Karl-2 wrote >> Message: 7 >> Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2013 16:29:26 -0800 (PST) >> From: Gilberto Agostinho < > gilbertohasnofb@ > > >> To: > lilypond-user@ >> Subject: Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing >>

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

> Message: 7 > Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2013 16:29:26 -0800 (PST) > From: Gilberto Agostinho > To: lilypond-user@gnu.org > Subject: Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing > Message-ID: <1384043366945-153614.p...@n5.nabble.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-asc

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

e in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Beam-positions-and-time-signature-spacing-tp153538p153638.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

Gilberto Agostinho writes: > Hi David, > > I am sorry if I expressed myself badly, I never wanted to say that "you are > proposing to judge things solely by the eye, while I propose to only use > strict rules". What I wrote before was just a comment that came to my head > while reading your messa

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

Thanks a lot Peter, I will keep an eye on it. -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Beam-positions-and-time-signature-spacing-tp153538p153630.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

w this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Beam-positions-and-time-signature-spacing-tp153538p153629.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

On 11/10/2013 01:39 AM, Gilberto Agostinho wrote: And Peter, if I may bother you a bit more, could you also have a look on this message I posted some days ago if you have the time? http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Bar-numbers-position-td153274.html It also concerns notation standards, spec

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

Gilberto, On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 6:29 PM, Gilberto Agostinho < gilbertohasn...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi David, > > Indeed that exact example is the worst one, but I think that our way of > dealing with engraving rules, spacing, etc. should not be conducted by what > bother us or not. I really think

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

very glad to hear what you and Ms. Gould think about it (I really need to buy this book as soon as possible!). Thanks and take care! Gilberto -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Beam-positions-and-time-signature-spacing-tp153538p153615.html Sent from the User

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

e with and without accidental(s) so a fix could be easier to implement. Thanks for you reply, take care! Gilberto -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Beam-positions-and-time-signature-spacing-tp153538p153614.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

Hi Gilberto, On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Gilberto Agostinho < gilbertohasn...@gmail.com> wrote: > Great! > > So now it would also be nice to hear what others have to say on this issue > of spacing. As you said, Gould book is highly regarded and I think we > should > follow it whenever we fi

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

-positions-and-time-signature-spacing-tp153538p153586.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

On 11/09/2013 05:09 PM, Gilberto Agostinho wrote: But that is exactly what I did, I turned the staff 90 degrees to create that ruler. Yes, I thought so too (good job interpreting Gould just from the image!). But it wasn't completely clear and I wanted to clarify anyway! Best Peter

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Beam-positions-and-time-signature-spacing-tp153538p153584.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

I'm sorry, I should have been clearer what she actually measures and not just posted the image! I hope you figured it out anyway! What she measures is the stave-space. So, you can see her scale as a staff turned forward 90°. It's a direct relational measure it doesn't depend on fontsize or any

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

eye the most on all these examples, to be honest. I think that we should balance these distances, her examples are looking much better than the current output of LilyPond IMO. What do you think? Best, Gilberto -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Beam-positi

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

On 11/08/2013 08:46 PM, Gilberto Agostinho wrote: Hi Peter, I will ask him about this, and I will also check some other scores of mine to see if I find these kind of beams. And if it would not be asking you too much, do you know if Gould says something on her book about the distance between cl

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

Hi Janek, It indeed does not look bad at all! Best, Gilberto -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Beam-positions-and-time-signature-spacing-tp153538p153556.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

of a system? This was the second discussion I had with this friend of mine about LilyPond. Take care, Gilberto -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Beam-positions-and-time-signature-spacing-tp153538p153549.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

Hi Gilberto, 2013/11/8 Gilberto Agostinho : > Hi Janek, > > I showed him two scores of mine, one with default settings for size, and the > had #(set-global-staff-size 18) ok, thanks. I supposed smaller staffsize (such problems are more visible with small sizes). > As for your suggestion of whit

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

ng-out the staff lines on the gaps, I think that this could look bad. My guess is that it would make the notes to appear to "float" above the staff, and it would make reading more difficult. Regards, Gilberto -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.co

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

Hi, 2013/11/8 Gilberto Agostinho : > Hi Peter! > > Thanks a lot for the scan. I would say that even though she doesn't condemns > her example a), she still considers b) as bad and c) as the best compromise. > My corrections above are all similar to her example c) > > What about her recommendation

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

On 11/08/2013 08:03 PM, Gilberto Agostinho wrote: Hi Peter! Thanks a lot for the scan. I would say that even though she doesn't condemns her example a), she still considers b) as bad and c) as the best compromise. My corrections above are all similar to her example c) I interpret her as s

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

is message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Beam-positions-and-time-signature-spacing-tp153538p153544.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.o

Re: Beam positions and time signature spacing

On 11/08/2013 05:50 PM, Gilberto Agostinho wrote: Hi all, I am not too sure if I do agree with some of the automatic beam position done by LilyPond, and also by the spacing between a time signature and the first note. First, about the beams. Here is a little code showing the problem: beam.ly <

Beam positions and time signature spacing

what you all think about this. Regards, Gilberto -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Beam-positions-and-time-signature-spacing-tp153538.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond-user maili