Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-20 Thread Laura Abbott
On 07/20/2017 10:30 AM, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: > On 20 July 2017 at 09:56, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: >> On 20 July 2017 at 09:36, James Morse wrote: >>> Hi Ard, >>> >>> On 20/07/17 06:35, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: On 20 July 2017 at 00:32, Laura Abbott

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-20 Thread Laura Abbott
On 07/20/2017 10:30 AM, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: > On 20 July 2017 at 09:56, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: >> On 20 July 2017 at 09:36, James Morse wrote: >>> Hi Ard, >>> >>> On 20/07/17 06:35, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: On 20 July 2017 at 00:32, Laura Abbott wrote: > I didn't notice any performance

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-20 Thread Ard Biesheuvel
On 20 July 2017 at 09:56, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: > On 20 July 2017 at 09:36, James Morse wrote: >> Hi Ard, >> >> On 20/07/17 06:35, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: >>> On 20 July 2017 at 00:32, Laura Abbott wrote: I didn't notice any

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-20 Thread Ard Biesheuvel
On 20 July 2017 at 09:56, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: > On 20 July 2017 at 09:36, James Morse wrote: >> Hi Ard, >> >> On 20/07/17 06:35, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: >>> On 20 July 2017 at 00:32, Laura Abbott wrote: I didn't notice any performance impact but I also wasn't trying that hard. I did

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-20 Thread Ard Biesheuvel
On 20 July 2017 at 09:36, James Morse wrote: > Hi Ard, > > On 20/07/17 06:35, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: >> On 20 July 2017 at 00:32, Laura Abbott wrote: >>> I didn't notice any performance impact but I also wasn't trying that >>> hard. I did try this with a

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-20 Thread Ard Biesheuvel
On 20 July 2017 at 09:36, James Morse wrote: > Hi Ard, > > On 20/07/17 06:35, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: >> On 20 July 2017 at 00:32, Laura Abbott wrote: >>> I didn't notice any performance impact but I also wasn't trying that >>> hard. I did try this with a different configuration and ran into >>>

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-20 Thread James Morse
Hi Ard, On 20/07/17 06:35, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: > On 20 July 2017 at 00:32, Laura Abbott wrote: >> I didn't notice any performance impact but I also wasn't trying that >> hard. I did try this with a different configuration and ran into >> stackspace errors almost

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-20 Thread James Morse
Hi Ard, On 20/07/17 06:35, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: > On 20 July 2017 at 00:32, Laura Abbott wrote: >> I didn't notice any performance impact but I also wasn't trying that >> hard. I did try this with a different configuration and ran into >> stackspace errors almost immediately: >> >> [ 0.358026]

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-19 Thread Ard Biesheuvel
On 20 July 2017 at 00:32, Laura Abbott wrote: > On 07/19/2017 01:08 AM, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: >> On 18 July 2017 at 22:53, Laura Abbott wrote: >>> On 07/15/2017 05:03 PM, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: On 14 July 2017 at 22:27, Mark Rutland

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-19 Thread Ard Biesheuvel
On 20 July 2017 at 00:32, Laura Abbott wrote: > On 07/19/2017 01:08 AM, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: >> On 18 July 2017 at 22:53, Laura Abbott wrote: >>> On 07/15/2017 05:03 PM, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: On 14 July 2017 at 22:27, Mark Rutland wrote: > On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 03:06:06PM +0100,

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-19 Thread Ard Biesheuvel
On 18 July 2017 at 22:53, Laura Abbott wrote: > On 07/15/2017 05:03 PM, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: >> On 14 July 2017 at 22:27, Mark Rutland wrote: >>> On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 03:06:06PM +0100, Mark Rutland wrote: On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 01:27:14PM

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-19 Thread Ard Biesheuvel
On 18 July 2017 at 22:53, Laura Abbott wrote: > On 07/15/2017 05:03 PM, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: >> On 14 July 2017 at 22:27, Mark Rutland wrote: >>> On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 03:06:06PM +0100, Mark Rutland wrote: On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 01:27:14PM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: > On 14 July

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-18 Thread Laura Abbott
On 07/15/2017 05:03 PM, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: > On 14 July 2017 at 22:27, Mark Rutland wrote: >> On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 03:06:06PM +0100, Mark Rutland wrote: >>> On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 01:27:14PM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: On 14 July 2017 at 11:48, Ard Biesheuvel

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-18 Thread Laura Abbott
On 07/15/2017 05:03 PM, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: > On 14 July 2017 at 22:27, Mark Rutland wrote: >> On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 03:06:06PM +0100, Mark Rutland wrote: >>> On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 01:27:14PM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: On 14 July 2017 at 11:48, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: > On 14 July

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-15 Thread Ard Biesheuvel
On 14 July 2017 at 22:27, Mark Rutland wrote: > On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 03:06:06PM +0100, Mark Rutland wrote: >> On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 01:27:14PM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: >> > On 14 July 2017 at 11:48, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: >> > > On 14 July

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-15 Thread Ard Biesheuvel
On 14 July 2017 at 22:27, Mark Rutland wrote: > On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 03:06:06PM +0100, Mark Rutland wrote: >> On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 01:27:14PM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: >> > On 14 July 2017 at 11:48, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: >> > > On 14 July 2017 at 11:32, Mark Rutland wrote: >> > >> On

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-14 Thread Mark Rutland
On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 03:06:06PM +0100, Mark Rutland wrote: > On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 01:27:14PM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: > > On 14 July 2017 at 11:48, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: > > > On 14 July 2017 at 11:32, Mark Rutland wrote: > > >> On Thu,

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-14 Thread Mark Rutland
On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 03:06:06PM +0100, Mark Rutland wrote: > On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 01:27:14PM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: > > On 14 July 2017 at 11:48, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: > > > On 14 July 2017 at 11:32, Mark Rutland wrote: > > >> On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 07:28:48PM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-14 Thread Mark Rutland
On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 04:03:51PM +0100, Robin Murphy wrote: > On 14/07/17 15:39, Robin Murphy wrote: > > On 14/07/17 15:06, Mark Rutland wrote: > >>add sp, sp, x0 // sp = orig_sp + orig_x0 > >>sub x0, sp, x0 // x0 = orig_sp > >>< check > > >>sub x0, sp, x0

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-14 Thread Mark Rutland
On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 04:03:51PM +0100, Robin Murphy wrote: > On 14/07/17 15:39, Robin Murphy wrote: > > On 14/07/17 15:06, Mark Rutland wrote: > >>add sp, sp, x0 // sp = orig_sp + orig_x0 > >>sub x0, sp, x0 // x0 = orig_sp > >>< check > > >>sub x0, sp, x0

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-14 Thread Ard Biesheuvel
On 14 July 2017 at 16:03, Robin Murphy wrote: > On 14/07/17 15:39, Robin Murphy wrote: >> On 14/07/17 15:06, Mark Rutland wrote: >>> On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 01:27:14PM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: On 14 July 2017 at 11:48, Ard Biesheuvel

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-14 Thread Ard Biesheuvel
On 14 July 2017 at 16:03, Robin Murphy wrote: > On 14/07/17 15:39, Robin Murphy wrote: >> On 14/07/17 15:06, Mark Rutland wrote: >>> On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 01:27:14PM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: On 14 July 2017 at 11:48, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: > On 14 July 2017 at 11:32, Mark Rutland

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-14 Thread Robin Murphy
On 14/07/17 15:39, Robin Murphy wrote: > On 14/07/17 15:06, Mark Rutland wrote: >> On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 01:27:14PM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: >>> On 14 July 2017 at 11:48, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: On 14 July 2017 at 11:32, Mark Rutland

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-14 Thread Robin Murphy
On 14/07/17 15:39, Robin Murphy wrote: > On 14/07/17 15:06, Mark Rutland wrote: >> On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 01:27:14PM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: >>> On 14 July 2017 at 11:48, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: On 14 July 2017 at 11:32, Mark Rutland wrote: > On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 07:28:48PM

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-14 Thread Robin Murphy
On 14/07/17 15:06, Mark Rutland wrote: > On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 01:27:14PM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: >> On 14 July 2017 at 11:48, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: >>> On 14 July 2017 at 11:32, Mark Rutland wrote: On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 07:28:48PM

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-14 Thread Robin Murphy
On 14/07/17 15:06, Mark Rutland wrote: > On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 01:27:14PM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: >> On 14 July 2017 at 11:48, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: >>> On 14 July 2017 at 11:32, Mark Rutland wrote: On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 07:28:48PM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: > > OK, so

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-14 Thread Ard Biesheuvel
On 14 July 2017 at 15:06, Mark Rutland wrote: > On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 01:27:14PM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: >> On 14 July 2017 at 11:48, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: >> > On 14 July 2017 at 11:32, Mark Rutland wrote: >> >> On

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-14 Thread Ard Biesheuvel
On 14 July 2017 at 15:06, Mark Rutland wrote: > On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 01:27:14PM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: >> On 14 July 2017 at 11:48, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: >> > On 14 July 2017 at 11:32, Mark Rutland wrote: >> >> On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 07:28:48PM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: > >> >>>

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-14 Thread Mark Rutland
On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 01:27:14PM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: > On 14 July 2017 at 11:48, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: > > On 14 July 2017 at 11:32, Mark Rutland wrote: > >> On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 07:28:48PM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: > >>> OK, so

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-14 Thread Mark Rutland
On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 01:27:14PM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: > On 14 July 2017 at 11:48, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: > > On 14 July 2017 at 11:32, Mark Rutland wrote: > >> On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 07:28:48PM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: > >>> OK, so here's a crazy idea: what if we > >>> a) carve

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-14 Thread Ard Biesheuvel
On 14 July 2017 at 13:52, Mark Rutland wrote: > On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 11:48:20AM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: >> On 14 July 2017 at 11:32, Mark Rutland wrote: >> > On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 07:28:48PM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: >> >> On 13 July 2017

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-14 Thread Ard Biesheuvel
On 14 July 2017 at 13:52, Mark Rutland wrote: > On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 11:48:20AM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: >> On 14 July 2017 at 11:32, Mark Rutland wrote: >> > On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 07:28:48PM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: >> >> On 13 July 2017 at 18:55, Mark Rutland wrote: >> >> > On

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-14 Thread Mark Rutland
On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 11:48:20AM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: > On 14 July 2017 at 11:32, Mark Rutland wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 07:28:48PM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: > >> On 13 July 2017 at 18:55, Mark Rutland wrote: > >> > On Thu, Jul

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-14 Thread Mark Rutland
On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 11:48:20AM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: > On 14 July 2017 at 11:32, Mark Rutland wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 07:28:48PM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: > >> On 13 July 2017 at 18:55, Mark Rutland wrote: > >> > On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 05:10:50PM +0100, Mark Rutland

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-14 Thread Ard Biesheuvel
On 14 July 2017 at 11:48, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: > On 14 July 2017 at 11:32, Mark Rutland wrote: >> On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 07:28:48PM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: >>> On 13 July 2017 at 18:55, Mark Rutland wrote: >>> > On

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-14 Thread Ard Biesheuvel
On 14 July 2017 at 11:48, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: > On 14 July 2017 at 11:32, Mark Rutland wrote: >> On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 07:28:48PM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: >>> On 13 July 2017 at 18:55, Mark Rutland wrote: >>> > On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 05:10:50PM +0100, Mark Rutland wrote: >>> >> On Thu,

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-14 Thread Ard Biesheuvel
On 14 July 2017 at 11:32, Mark Rutland wrote: > On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 07:28:48PM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: >> On 13 July 2017 at 18:55, Mark Rutland wrote: >> > On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 05:10:50PM +0100, Mark Rutland wrote: >> >> On Thu, Jul 13,

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-14 Thread Ard Biesheuvel
On 14 July 2017 at 11:32, Mark Rutland wrote: > On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 07:28:48PM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: >> On 13 July 2017 at 18:55, Mark Rutland wrote: >> > On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 05:10:50PM +0100, Mark Rutland wrote: >> >> On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 12:49:48PM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-14 Thread Mark Rutland
On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 07:28:48PM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: > On 13 July 2017 at 18:55, Mark Rutland wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 05:10:50PM +0100, Mark Rutland wrote: > >> On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 12:49:48PM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: > >> > On 13 July 2017 at

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-14 Thread Mark Rutland
On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 07:28:48PM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: > On 13 July 2017 at 18:55, Mark Rutland wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 05:10:50PM +0100, Mark Rutland wrote: > >> On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 12:49:48PM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: > >> > On 13 July 2017 at 11:49, Mark Rutland

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-13 Thread Ard Biesheuvel
On 13 July 2017 at 18:55, Mark Rutland wrote: > On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 05:10:50PM +0100, Mark Rutland wrote: >> On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 12:49:48PM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: >> > On 13 July 2017 at 11:49, Mark Rutland wrote: >> > > On Thu, Jul 13,

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-13 Thread Ard Biesheuvel
On 13 July 2017 at 18:55, Mark Rutland wrote: > On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 05:10:50PM +0100, Mark Rutland wrote: >> On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 12:49:48PM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: >> > On 13 July 2017 at 11:49, Mark Rutland wrote: >> > > On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 07:58:50AM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-13 Thread Mark Rutland
On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 05:10:50PM +0100, Mark Rutland wrote: > On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 12:49:48PM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: > > On 13 July 2017 at 11:49, Mark Rutland wrote: > > > On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 07:58:50AM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: > > >> On 12 July 2017 at

Re: [kernel-hardening] Re: [RFC PATCH 6/6] arm64: add VMAP_STACK and detect out-of-bounds SP

2017-07-13 Thread Mark Rutland
On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 05:10:50PM +0100, Mark Rutland wrote: > On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 12:49:48PM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: > > On 13 July 2017 at 11:49, Mark Rutland wrote: > > > On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 07:58:50AM +0100, Ard Biesheuvel wrote: > > >> On 12 July 2017 at 23:33, Mark Rutland