Hi,
just a short comment.
I think, this snippet shows the key point in this argument:
At 15.07.2013 21:53 CEST +02:00 Sarah Sharp wrote:
> Good lord. So anyone that is one of your "top maintainers" could be
> exposed to your verbal abuse just because they "should have known
> better"?
>
> You
Hi Sarah,
kinda reminds me of... baboons... its natural among mammals i guess...
Why hierarchy creates a destructive force within the human psyche (by
dr. Robert Sapolsky)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4UMyTnlaMY&feature=share
On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 11:52 PM, Sarah Sharp
wrote:
> On Fri, 12
Mike,
I do want to partially apologize to Sarah for my first email. That
was really much tongue in cheek to express what happens when things
get too polite
and professional and hope she wasn't too offended. I saw Sarah's last post
http://www.mail-archive.com/linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org/msg47136
> Which means you're likely not invited to the annual mud-wrestling and toga
party where this topic has been scheduled for further discussion.
> This thread and its offspring have been declared dead on LKML, we're in
kernel development mode again.
> -Mike
That's okay. Just wanted to express my
On Mon, 2013-07-22 at 21:42 -0400, Regina Obe wrote:
> Linus,
> I want to start off by saying, though I'm mostly a windows developer,
Which means you're likely not invited to the annual mud-wrestling and
toga party where this topic has been scheduled for further discussion.
This thread and its of
I wanted to take Sarah up on her offer to pay my respects for the
great work she is doing to bring civility to the LKLM community
as detailed in http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=137390362508794
Linus,
I want to start off by saying, though I'm mostly a windows developer,
I've gained a whole new l
On 07/22/2013 09:02 PM, Luck, Tony wrote:
> Some thoughts on the format of the discussion at KS:
>
> ...
>
5) Volunteers are under-represented at Kernel Summit
Volunteers are the "dark matter" of Linux Kernel contribution. They are
not the "usual suspects" who nearly all have full time jobs now,
On 07/18/2013 03:54 PM, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> Let's shift this discussion away from the terms "abuse" and
> "professionalism" to "respect" and "civility".
And Daniel Philips replied:
> Brilliant, and +1 for a session at KS. In the mean time, why don't we
> all try to demonstrate the real meaning o
On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 02:44:21PM -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 04:03:24PM -0400, Kurt H Maier wrote:
>
> Come to KS! You're more than welcome to discuss this with us there.
>
Thanks for the invitation, but those events don't fit into my schedule.
I hope in my absence yo
On 07/15/2013 09:01:56 PM, Joe Perches wrote:
On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 11:54 +1000, NeilBrown wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 16:50:52 -0700 Joe Perches
wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 09:42 +1000, NeilBrown wrote:
> > > Being "polite" without being "nice" is quite possible.
> > > It even has a
On 07/18/2013 03:54 PM, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> Let's shift this discussion away from the terms "abuse" and
> "professionalism" to "respect" and "civility".
Brilliant, and +1 for a session at KS. In the mean time, why don't we
all try to demonstrate the real meaning of respect and civility, by
prac
On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 04:03:24PM -0400, Kurt H Maier wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 12:01:27PM -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> >
> > I'm not trying to shut down this discussion. But please, let's continue
> > this discussion at KS, away from the court of public opinion. I would
> > love for this
* Rob Landley wrote:
> On 07/15/2013 10:52:48 AM, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> >On Fri, 12 Jul 2013 18:17:08 +0200, Ingo Molnar
> >wrote:
> >> * Linus Torvalds wrote:
> >Let's discuss this at Kernel Summit where we can at least yell at each
> >other in person. Yeah, just try yelling at me about this.
* Sarah Sharp wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 03:12:45PM -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> > I react very strongly when somebody argues against fixing regressions.
> > Let's just say that there's too many years of baggage that I carry
> > around on that issue..
> >
> > So that is definitely one o
* Sarah Sharp wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 02:42:16AM +0200, Thomas Gleixner wrote:
> > If you can point me to a single instance of Linus "abusing" someone
> > who is not one of his trusted persons, who really should be able to
> > deal with that, or someone who did not provoke him to go int
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 11:07 AM, Sarah Sharp
wrote:
> To me, being "professional" means treating each other with respect.
Respect is earned, not automatic, and can be lost. A common mistake in
our modern society is to think that everyone deserves respect; they
don't.
We should tolerate each ot
On Thu, 2013-07-18 at 09:07 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> The following statement is not respectful, because it targets the
> person:
>
> "Seriously, Maintainer. Why are you pushing this kind of *crap* code to
> me again? Why the hell did you mark it for stable when it's clearly
> not a bug fix?
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 12:39:07PM +0200, Ingo Molnar wrote:
>
> * Linus Torvalds wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Sarah Sharp
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Oh, FFS, I just called out on private email for "playing the victim
> > > card". I will repeat: this is not just about me, or other
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 09:30:08AM -0400, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> The reason why I started the kernel summit over ten years ago
> was because there were certain topics that are much better discussed
> in person, and that over time, if we don't have sufficient face to
> face interactions, the quality
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 02:42:16AM +0200, Thomas Gleixner wrote:
> If you can point me to a single instance of Linus "abusing" someone
> who is not one of his trusted persons, who really should be able to
> deal with that, or someone who did not provoke him to go into rant
> mode, then I'm all on y
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 12:39:07PM +0200, Ingo Molnar wrote:
>
> * Linus Torvalds wrote:
...
> > Because if you want me to "act professional", I can tell you that I'm
> > not interested. I'm sitting in my home office wearign a bathrobe. The
> > same way I'm not going to start wearing ties, I'm
The reason why I started the kernel summit over ten years ago
was because there were certain topics that are much better discussed
in person, and that over time, if we don't have sufficient face to
face interactions, the quality of e-mail discussions can start to
become frayed.
One of the reasons
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 12:01:18AM -0400, CAI Qian wrote:
> > > Could victim be someone else in the future since it is an example that
> > > people may follow?
Is Nik Wallenda an abuser because he walked across the Grand Canyon on
a tightrope without a safety net, and that's an example that other
On Thu, 2013-07-18 at 00:01 -0400, CAI Qian wrote:
>
> > > > So if you talk about abuse, then you need an abuser and a victim. So
> > > > your argumentation falls flat because there is no victim.
> > > Could victim be someone else in the future since it is an example that
> > > people may follow?
* Linus Torvalds wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Sarah Sharp
> wrote:
> >
> > Oh, FFS, I just called out on private email for "playing the victim
> > card". I will repeat: this is not just about me, or other minorities.
> > I should not have to ask for professional behavior on the ma
* CAI Qian wrote:
> > On 07/17/2013, CAI Qian wrote:
> > >
> > > On 07/17/2013, CAI Qian wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Could victim be someone else in the future since it is an
> > > > > example that people may follow?
> > > > >
> > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvio_Berlusconi_underage_pr
uot;Greg Kroah-Hartman"
> , "Dave Jones"
> , "Linux Kernel Mailing List"
> , "Andrew Morton"
> , "stable" , "Darren Hart"
>
> 发送时间: 星期四, 2013年 7 月 18日 下午 1:03:41
> 主题: Re: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review
>
> On 07/17/20
On 07/17/2013 09:01 PM, CAI Qian wrote:
>
> Please don't get me wrong. I did neither compare Linus to those child abusers
> nor Thomas to those children. I simply pointed out there is also some common
> sense need to consider.
>
Actually, you did.
-hpa
--
To unsubscribe from this list
n" , "Dave Jones" ,
> "Linux Kernel Mailing List"
> , "Andrew Morton" ,
> "stable" ,
> "Darren Hart"
> Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 11:47:34 AM
> Subject: Re: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review
>
> On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 23:16
n" , "Dave Jones" ,
> "Linux Kernel Mailing List"
> , "Andrew Morton" ,
> "stable" ,
> "Darren Hart"
> Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 11:47:34 AM
> Subject: Re: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review
>
> On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 23:16
> If you can point me to a single instance of Linus "abusing" someone
> who is not one of his trusted persons, who really should be able to
> deal with that, or someone who did not provoke him to go into rant
> mode, then I'm all on your side.
Well, the one that comes to mind is Alan Cox and the T
On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 23:16 -0400, CAI Qian wrote:
> > So if you talk about abuse, then you need an abuser and a victim. So
> > your argumentation falls flat because there is no victim.
> Could victim be someone else in the future since it is an example that
> people may follow?
> http://en.wikipe
ones" , "Linux Kernel Mailing List"
> , "Andrew Morton"
> , "stable" , "Darren Hart"
>
> Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 8:42:16 AM
> Subject: Re: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review
>
> On Mon, 15 Jul 2013, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> > On Mo
On Mon, 15 Jul 2013, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 12:07:56PM -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> > On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 11:46 AM, Sarah Sharp
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Bullshit. I've seen you be polite, and explain to clueless maintainers
> > > why there's no way you can revert their m
On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 9:17 PM, Linus Torvalds
wrote:
>
> Google "management by perkele".
Actually, not even our former president mr. Kekkonen never went quite
as far using this method. I think something along the lines of
legendary 'saatanan tunarit' would suffice next time :)
--
Janne
--
To
ck" , "Greg Kroah-Hartman"
> , "Dave Jones"
> , "Linux Kernel Mailing List"
> , "Andrew Morton"
> , "stable" , "Darren Hart"
>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 7:50:52 AM
> Subject: Re: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review
>
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 03:12:45PM -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> I react very strongly when somebody argues against fixing regressions.
> Let's just say that there's too many years of baggage that I carry
> around on that issue..
>
> So that is definitely one of the things that make me go ballist
On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 18:37 -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 6:02 PM, Rusty Russell wrote:
> >>
> >> "Mauro, SHUT THE FUCK UP!"
> >
> > This one crosses the line. There's no non-offensive way to tell a geek
> > "you are wrong", but this isn't even trying. Bad Linus!
>
> Yo
On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 18:37 -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> Emotions aren't bad. Quite the reverse.
Spock and Dr. Sheldon Cooper strongly disagree.
-- Steve
--
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org
More maj
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 6:02 PM, Rusty Russell wrote:
>>
>> "Mauro, SHUT THE FUCK UP!"
>
> This one crosses the line. There's no non-offensive way to tell a geek
> "you are wrong", but this isn't even trying. Bad Linus!
You know what? Not my proudest moment. I was really upset.
But that said,
Sarah Sharp writes:
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 02:22:14PM +0930, Rusty Russell wrote:
> Linus is complaining about code here, and the effects of merging bad
> code on his own tree. I personally have no qualms with this type of
> harsh email, because it focuses on the code, not the person.
>
> I do
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 2:58 PM, Rafael J. Wysocki wrote:
>
> In fact, I didn't say what I really wanted to say in that reply to the
> reporter
> and that evidently confused you, which only made me think it was better to be
> more careful about sending replies to regression reports when Linus is
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 02:08:56PM -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> Rusty hit the nail on the head here. I want everyone (including Linus)
> to be harsh with code but gentle with people.
Just as a side note Sarah, in some cultures/languages, "I want" is
extremely impolite, almost insulting to your int
On Tuesday, July 16, 2013 02:23:46 PM Linus Torvalds wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 2:08 PM, Sarah Sharp
> wrote:
> >
> > I do, however, object when the verbal abuse shifts from being directed
> > at code to being directed at *people*. For example, Linus chose to
> > curse at Mauro [2] and Rafa
On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 14:08 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
>
> "Mauro, SHUT THE FUCK UP!"
>
> "How long have you been a maintainer? And you *still* haven't learnt the
> first rule of kernel maintenance?"
>
> "Shut up, Mauro. And I don't _ever_ want to hear that kind of obvious
> garbage and idiocy f
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 2:08 PM, Sarah Sharp
wrote:
>
> I do, however, object when the verbal abuse shifts from being directed
> at code to being directed at *people*. For example, Linus chose to
> curse at Mauro [2] and Rafael [3], rather than their code:
Umm. Because it was actually the person
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 02:22:14PM +0930, Rusty Russell wrote:
> Linus Torvalds writes:
> > On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Willy Tarreau wrote:
> >>
> >> BTW, I was amazed that you managed to get him have a much softer tone inr
> >> his last e-mail, you probably found a weakness here in his ma
Hi Darren,
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 08:40:15AM -0700, Darren Hart wrote:
> On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 08:13 +0200, Willy Tarreau wrote:
>
> > It can seem counter-producting first (as Sarah thinks) but I think that
> > the competent people find their way in this simply because they're backed
> > up by o
On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 08:13 +0200, Willy Tarreau wrote:
> It can seem counter-producting first (as Sarah thinks) but I think that
> the competent people find their way in this simply because they're backed
> up by other ones. That's how I think we get that number of skilled people
> at the top of
On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 08:09 -0700, Kees Cook wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 04:30:45PM +0200, Geert Uytterhoeven wrote:
> > On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 10:41 PM, Sarah Sharp
> > wrote:
> > > I should not have to ask for professional behavior on the mailing lists.
> > > Professional behavior should b
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 04:30:45PM +0200, Geert Uytterhoeven wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 10:41 PM, Sarah Sharp
> wrote:
> > I should not have to ask for professional behavior on the mailing lists.
> > Professional behavior should be the default.
>
> So, what does "professional" mean? A profe
On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 16:30 +0200, Geert Uytterhoeven wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 10:41 PM, Sarah Sharp
> wrote:
> > I should not have to ask for professional behavior on the mailing lists.
> > Professional behavior should be the default.
>
> So, what does "professional" mean? A professional
On 07/15/2013 02:07 PM, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> But when people who know better send me crap, I'll curse at them.
>
> I suspect you'll notice me cursing *way* more at top developers than
> random people on the list. I expect more from them, and conversely
> I'll be a lot more upset when they do so
On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 10:41 PM, Sarah Sharp
wrote:
> I should not have to ask for professional behavior on the mailing lists.
> Professional behavior should be the default.
So, what does "professional" mean? A professional is paid for his work, an
amateur isn't. But this doesn't say anything ab
Hi Neil,
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 08:40:36AM +1000, NeilBrown wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 21:17:27 +0200 Willy Tarreau wrote:
>
> > Communication works two ways.
>
> I understand that to mean (at least) that for communication, every message
> must be both sent and received. So when constructin
Linus Torvalds writes:
> On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Willy Tarreau wrote:
>>
>> BTW, I was amazed that you managed to get him have a much softer tone inr
>> his last e-mail, you probably found a weakness here in his management
>> process :-)
>
> Hey, I _like_ arguing, and "cursing" and "arg
>> Sarah, first off, I don't have that many tools at hand. Secondly, I
>> simply don't believe in being polite or politically correct.
>
> Bullshit. I've seen you be polite, and explain to clueless maintainers
> why there's no way you can revert their merge that caused regressions,
> and ask them
On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 11:54 +1000, NeilBrown wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 16:50:52 -0700 Joe Perches wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 09:42 +1000, NeilBrown wrote:
> > > Being "polite" without being "nice" is quite possible.
> > > It even has a name: Diplomacy.
> >
> > And we all know how cir
On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 16:50:52 -0700 Joe Perches wrote:
> On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 09:42 +1000, NeilBrown wrote:
> > Being "polite" without being "nice" is quite possible.
> > It even has a name: Diplomacy.
>
> And we all know how circular/indirect/implied/useless
> some of those diplomatic conversa
On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 09:42 +1000, NeilBrown wrote:
> Being "polite" without being "nice" is quite possible.
> It even has a name: Diplomacy.
And we all know how circular/indirect/implied/useless
some of those diplomatic conversations can be.
Just remember to bring a 'Big Stick' and don't be shy
On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 15:19:44 -0400 Steven Rostedt wrote:
> On Mon, 2013-07-15 at 15:05 -0400, J. Bruce Fields wrote:
>
> > "Nice", "subtle", and "polite" all seem mostly orthogonal to me.
> >
>
> "Nice" and "polite" are rather attached.
Being "polite" without being "nice" is quite possible.
On Mon, 2013-07-15 at 12:23 -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Willy Tarreau wrote:
> >
> > BTW, I was amazed that you managed to get him have a much softer tone inr
> > his last e-mail, you probably found a weakness here in his management
> > process :-)
>
> Hey, I
On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 21:17:27 +0200 Willy Tarreau wrote:
> Communication works two ways.
I understand that to mean (at least) that for communication, every message
must be both sent and received. So when constructing a message, it is
important to think about how others will understand it.
On a p
On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Sarah Sharp
wrote:
>
> Oh, FFS, I just called out on private email for "playing the victim
> card". I will repeat: this is not just about me, or other minorities.
> I should not have to ask for professional behavior on the mailing lists.
> Professional behavior sh
On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 01:41:35PM -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> "The standard you walk past is the standard you accept."
I think this sums up the situation very well. Even if we accept that some
people can "correctly" choose when to be abusive, it creates an atmosphere
where other people will come
On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 12:53:16PM -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> Good lord. So anyone that is one of your "top maintainers" could be
> exposed to your verbal abuse just because they "should have known
> better"?
>
> You know what the definition of an abuser is? Someone that seeks out
> victims tha
On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 12:07:56PM -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 11:46 AM, Sarah Sharp
> wrote:
> >
> > Bullshit. I've seen you be polite, and explain to clueless maintainers
> > why there's no way you can revert their merge that caused regressions,
> > and ask them to fi
On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 12:23:05PM -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Willy Tarreau wrote:
> >
> > BTW, I was amazed that you managed to get him have a much softer tone inr
> > his last e-mail, you probably found a weakness here in his management
> > process :-)
>
>
On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Willy Tarreau wrote:
>
> BTW, I was amazed that you managed to get him have a much softer tone inr
> his last e-mail, you probably found a weakness here in his management
> process :-)
Hey, I _like_ arguing, and "cursing" and "arguing" are actually not at
all the
On Mon, 2013-07-15 at 15:05 -0400, J. Bruce Fields wrote:
> "Nice", "subtle", and "polite" all seem mostly orthogonal to me.
>
"Nice" and "polite" are rather attached. But "subtle" is orthogonal, as
in
"Fuck you, subtly"
-- Steve
--
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubsc
Hello Sarah,
On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 11:46:42AM -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 11:17:06AM -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> > On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 11:04 AM, Sarah Sharp
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > However, I am serious about this. Linus, you're one of the worst
> > > offenders wh
On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 11:46 AM, Sarah Sharp
wrote:
>
> Bullshit. I've seen you be polite, and explain to clueless maintainers
> why there's no way you can revert their merge that caused regressions,
> and ask them to fit it without resorting to tearing them down
> emotionally:
Oh, I'll be poli
On Mon, 2013-07-15 at 11:46 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> *Snort*. Perhaps we haven't interacted very often, but I have never
> seen you be nice in person at KS. Well, there was that one time you
> came to me and very quietly explained you had a problem with your USB
> 3.0 ports, but you came off
On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 11:17:06AM -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 11:04 AM, Sarah Sharp
> wrote:
> >
> > However, I am serious about this. Linus, you're one of the worst
> > offenders when it comes to verbally abusing people and publicly tearing
> > their emotions apart.
>
On 07/15/2013 10:52:48 AM, Sarah Sharp wrote:
On Fri, 12 Jul 2013 18:17:08 +0200, Ingo Molnar
wrote:
> * Linus Torvalds wrote:
Let's discuss this at Kernel Summit where we can at least yell at each
other in person. Yeah, just try yelling at me about this. I'll roar
right back, louder, for a
On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 11:17:06AM -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 11:04 AM, Sarah Sharp
> wrote:
> >
> > However, I am serious about this. Linus, you're one of the worst
> > offenders when it comes to verbally abusing people and publicly tearing
> > their emotions apart.
>
On Mon, 2013-07-15 at 10:08 -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> Greg has taught you well. You have controlled your fear. Now, release
> your anger. Only your hatred can destroy me.
>
> Come to the dark side, Sarah. We have cookies.
http://rostedt.homelinux.com/private/darth-cookie.png
-- Steve
--
On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 11:04 AM, Sarah Sharp
wrote:
>
> However, I am serious about this. Linus, you're one of the worst
> offenders when it comes to verbally abusing people and publicly tearing
> their emotions apart.
Yes. And I do it partly (mostly) because it's who I am, and partly
because I
On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 10:50:52AM -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 10:46 AM, Sarah Sharp
> wrote:
> >
> > But, but, the light side has brownies. Pot brownies that will make
> > everyone feel sleepy and peaceful and possibly hungry. For more pot
> > brownies...
>
> Hmm. Ma
On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 10:46 AM, Sarah Sharp
wrote:
>
> But, but, the light side has brownies. Pot brownies that will make
> everyone feel sleepy and peaceful and possibly hungry. For more pot
> brownies...
Hmm. Maybe we should have a BoF at the KS.
I'll bring the regular cookies.
On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 10:08:13AM -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 8:52 AM, Sarah Sharp
> wrote:
> >
> > I'll roar
> > right back, louder, for all the people who lose their voice when they
> > get yelled at by top m
On Mon, 2013-07-15 at 08:52 -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Jul 2013 18:17:08 +0200, Ingo Molnar wrote:
> > * Linus Torvalds wrote:
> >
> > > On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 8:47 AM, Steven Rostedt
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I tend to hold things off after -rc4 because you scare me more than
On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 8:52 AM, Sarah Sharp
wrote:
>
> I'll roar
> right back, louder, for all the people who lose their voice when they
> get yelled at by top maintainers. I won't be the nice girl anymore.
That's the spirit.
Greg has
On Fri, 12 Jul 2013 18:17:08 +0200, Ingo Molnar wrote:
> * Linus Torvalds wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 8:47 AM, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> > >
> > > I tend to hold things off after -rc4 because you scare me more than Greg
> > > does ;-)
> >
> > Have you guys *seen* Greg? The guy is a frea
On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 12:12:04PM +0800, Li Zefan wrote:
> > It is *my* conception of the stable branch, but I think that many people
> > have different expectations about what should be merged or not. For example
> > in old LTS branches, I used to merge what was relevant for servers only,
>
> We
> It is *my* conception of the stable branch, but I think that many people
> have different expectations about what should be merged or not. For example
> in old LTS branches, I used to merge what was relevant for servers only,
We have lots of embeded systems running 2.6.32 kernel. And we encounte
On Sun, 2013-07-14 at 18:40 -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> Not before it's been in the distro, no. Something like a PCI change
> *definitely* should never be marked for stable, unless it causes
> crashes or is a _new_ regression that causes dead machines.
>
> Because the likelihood that that 4-5 l
On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 4:52 PM, Benjamin Herrenschmidt
wrote:
>
> So if I read this (and stable_kernel_rules.txt) correctly, that means that
> for example, let's say, we find in RHEL66 or SLES42 (possibly following
> a user report), for example, that PCI hotplug is broken with some category
> of
On Fri, 2013-07-12 at 10:50 -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> You cut out the important part:
>
> - It must fix a problem that causes a build error (but not for things
>marked CONFIG_BROKEN), an oops, a hang, data corruption, a real
>security issue, or some "oh, that's not good" issue. In s
On Thu, 2013-07-11 at 15:01 -0700, Greg Kroah-Hartman wrote:
> s is the start of the stable review cycle for the 3.10.1 release.
> There are 19 patches in this series, all will be posted as a response
> to this one. If anyone has any issues with these being applied,
> please
> let me know.
>
> Re
On Thu, 2013-07-11 at 15:44 -0700, Greg Kroah-Hartman wrote:
> > And the later in -rc we are, the more reluctant some people seem to be
> > at sending stuff. Which, for slowing things down as we go through -rc is
> > great,
> > but not so much when people stop sending _everything_ and start thinki
On Thu, 2013-07-11 at 18:14 -0400, Josh Boyer wrote:
>Why are subsystem maintainers holding on to fixes that are
> > _supposedly_ affecting all users? I mean, 21 powerpc core changes
> > that I don't see until a -rc1 merge? It's as if developers don't
> > expect people to use a .0 relea
On Fri, 2013-07-12 at 10:05 -0700, Greg Kroah-Hartman wrote:
> Specific example is, again, the powerpc patches. Out of 21 patches
> marked for stable that showed up in the -rc1 merge, at least 7 of them
> had _plenty_ of time to get into 3.10.0 as they are weeks, and sometimes
> months, old. Some
On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 7:24 AM, Guenter Roeck wrote:
>> You are confusing the words "real" and "critical" perhaps. I, and other
>
> A typical classification of bugs might be
> critical: mission critical, no workaround, must be fixed prior to
> customer release
> s
On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 08:51:28PM -0700, Greg Kroah-Hartman wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 10:22:19PM -0400, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> > On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 11:27:17AM -0700, Greg Kroah-Hartman wrote:
> > > Ugh, the conversation has degenerated now into parsing the meaning of
> > > specific wor
On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 10:22:19PM -0400, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 11:27:17AM -0700, Greg Kroah-Hartman wrote:
> > Ugh, the conversation has degenerated now into parsing the meaning of
> > specific words. This is why lawyers have created whole vocabularies
> > that are not us
On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 11:27:17AM -0700, Greg Kroah-Hartman wrote:
> Ugh, the conversation has degenerated now into parsing the meaning of
> specific words. This is why lawyers have created whole vocabularies
> that are not used by "normal" people. There's a very good reason why
> I'm not a lawy
On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 07:42:11AM -0400, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 11:48:01PM -0700, Greg Kroah-Hartman wrote:
> > > It's the difference between "this is a fix" and "please backport this
> > > fix into stable". As we aid in this thread, cc:stable is a bit too much
> > > automa
On Sat, 2013-07-13 at 11:10 -0400, Dave Jones wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 07:11:29AM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
>
> > > Users expect vanilla .0 releases usable as production systems, to
> > > be updated (meaning, no new features, just stabilizing) with the
> > > corresponding -stable ser
On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 07:11:29AM -0400, Steven Rostedt wrote:
> > Users expect vanilla .0 releases usable as production systems, to
> > be updated (meaning, no new features, just stabilizing) with the
> > corresponding -stable series.
>
> This really is a case by case basis. An unprivilege
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