[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Sharp keys seem to work well in d-minor tuned lute...

2012-01-06 Thread Martin Shepherd
Hi Arto, Well the temperament problem is the same for baroque and renaissance lute, with the 2nd to 4th courses being the same tuning and in the Dm tuning the 1st being the same as the 4th! So G major works well, because you can have the 1st, 4th and 6th frets in the low position (nearer

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Weiss London manuscript

2012-01-06 Thread bh
I had the same problem and Daniel Fourget informed me kindly about the solution. But I am still dazzled: how does a browser influence the download of a file? I mean, if you download the same file with a different browser you have a valid pdf on your computer.. That is

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Sharp keys seem to work well in d-minor tuned lute...

2012-01-06 Thread theoj89294
Out of curiosity - is there any evidence that Lute makers/players of the renaissance insisted on maintaining frets made from gut PRIMARILY because they would shift them around to accommodate the mean tuning within different keys? ...otherwise, wouldn't have been easier for lute players of the

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Sharp keys seem to work well in d-minor tuned lute...

2012-01-06 Thread Roman Turovsky
The answer is NO. Gut frets wear out gut strings nearly not as much as hard frets, and considering the cost of strings - this is simple economic expediency. Still is, now. There were always a few masochists bent on temperaments, but these were always a small minority. Even keyboard composers were

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Sharp keys seem to work well in d-minor tuned lute...

2012-01-06 Thread howard posner
On Jan 6, 2012, at 1:57 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Equal temperament was used on lutes from the 16th century onwards Except by Gerle (1532) And the Dowlands (1610) And Ganassi (1543) And Mersenne (1636) And anyone who read their books and followed their instructions And anyone who played with

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Sharp keys seem to work well in d-minor tuned lute...

2012-01-06 Thread Jean-Marie Poirier
Dar Howard and all, I am sorry I must disagree with the Mersenne bit below. Mersenne insists that the best way to play in tune with fretted instruments in particular, is to use some sort of equal temperament. Just one example, from his Livre Troisième des Genres de la Musique, Proposition XII

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Sharp keys seem to work well in d-minor tuned lute...

2012-01-06 Thread howard posner
On Jan 6, 2012, at 9:51 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: Mersenne insists that the best way to play in tune with fretted instruments in particular, is to use some sort of equal temperament. And yet the fret placement he gives in Harmonie Universelle is decidedly unequal. -- To get on or off

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Sharp keys seem to work well in d-minor tuned lute...

2012-01-06 Thread Christopher Wilke
Jean-Marie, Can you post a translation of the passages? I can fight my way through it, but French is not one of my languages. Chris Christopher Wilke Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com --- On Fri, 1/6/12, Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Sharp keys seem to work well in d-minor tuned lute...

2012-01-06 Thread Jean-Marie Poirier
Well, Chris, being rather busy at the moment I will go to the essential and give a rough translation of the relevant bits in terms of temperament : Mersenne : We know from experience that the octave composed of the lesser number of dergrees and divisions is the most convenient and is used for

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Sharp keys seem to work well in d-minor tuned lute...

2012-01-06 Thread howard posner
On Jan 6, 2012, at 12:36 PM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: Although Denis does not recommend openly a sort of equal temperament, he acknowledges the fact that fretted instruments are not naturally and technically apt for unequal temperaments. I think his ivory frets, which could be adjusted

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Sharp keys seem to work well in d-minor tuned lute...

2012-01-06 Thread Jean-Marie Poirier
Isn't that evocative of the Well-tempered keyboard... JM There is another important passage in the Jean Denis's text, well woth quoting. I will try a translation : After hearing a harpsichord tuned in equal temperament Denis asks why they use this temperament which he judges bad : Being in

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Sharp keys seem to work well in d-minor tuned lute...

2012-01-06 Thread Roman Turovsky
Prominent??? RT From: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 3:48 PM Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Sharp keys seem to work well in d-minor tuned lute... On Jan 6, 2012, at 12:36 PM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: Although Denis does not recommend openly a sort of equal

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Sharp keys seem to work well in d-minor tuned lute...

2012-01-06 Thread Jean-Marie Poirier
Correct, Howard, my mistake. But nonetheless this technique, which was probably not very popular though... Here is the passage about tastini taken on Arto Wikla's site, thank you Arto ! : Eumatius [the student]: ... Also, how does it happen that you do not use frets that are spaced by unusual

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Sharp keys seem to work well in d-minor tuned lute...

2012-01-06 Thread Jean-Marie Poirier
David, I made amends for that mistake of mine ! ;-( There is another quotation from Mersenne I like very much : According to the common saying of musicians, the lute is the charlatan of music, because it passes off as good that whichis bad on good instruments... (Translated by Mark Lindley ,

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Sharp keys seem to work well in d-minor tuned lute...

2012-01-06 Thread David van Ooijen
On 6 January 2012 22:45, Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: I like the isea of playing a charlatan of music :-). Don't you ? So true. And at the same time we can suggest such unwordly beauty with our imperfect instruments. Suggestion is the key word here. Perhaps also in our

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Sharp keys seem to work well in d-minor tuned lute...

2012-01-06 Thread wikla
Well, my original mail on this subject referred - among other things - about the possibility of correcting the tuning on higher frets easier than on the first fret: the first fret bb and f# are hard to tune by left hand pressure - that problem becomes much easier on higher frets. Perhaps this

[LUTE] tuning fork at 433Hz?

2012-01-06 Thread Anthony Hind
Dear luthenists A friend gave me an amusing tuning fork, which is clearly of some age. I am not (here) in a position to be able to load a photo of it, but it fits into a tight wooden case, and at the end of this there is a hollow metal peg. I quickly realized that if you

[LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?

2012-01-06 Thread tom
This is very interesting to me, because an old friend recently alerted me to a new line of thinking claiming that 432Hz OUGHT to be true concert pitch. There are websites devoting a lot of space to articles and discussions about this. http://www.omega432.com/music.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Sharp keys seem to work well in d-minor tuned lute...

2012-01-06 Thread Christopher Wilke
--- On Fri, 1/6/12, wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi wrote: Are there really any serious lutenists, who just push the buttons, just set the finger on the string without colouring the pitch by the finger pressure up or down? I find just pushing the buttons to be pretty hard in itself. Chris

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Sharp keys seem to work well in d-minor tuned lute...

2012-01-06 Thread Roman Turovsky
Reminds me of a Woody Allen quote: ... I like three, but it is hard enough to get one. RT Are there really any serious lutenists, who just push the buttons, just set the finger on the string without colouring the pitch by the finger pressure up or down? I find just pushing the buttons to be

[LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?

2012-01-06 Thread Edward Martin
So true. I recall years ago, playing a mandolino in the double Vovaldi concerto, with a modern chamber orchestra. The concertmaster gave a true a=440 to tune all the string players, but most of the string players tuned sharper than that, and they were around 443. I recall in rehearsals

[LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?

2012-01-06 Thread howard posner
On Jan 6, 2012, at 3:43 PM, Edward Martin wrote: I recall in rehearsals stopping, and inquiring why they did that. They responded that many of the individual violinists tuned sharp, so I can hear myself, and they found that it was easier for them to play that way. The usual answer is

[LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?

2012-01-06 Thread Edward Martin
How silly is that? Playing sharp _is_ out of tune! At 05:51 PM 1/6/2012, howard posner wrote: On Jan 6, 2012, at 3:43 PM, Edward Martin wrote: I recall in rehearsals stopping, and inquiring why they did that. They responded that many of the individual violinists tuned sharp, so I

[LUTE] Re: tuning fork at 433Hz?

2012-01-06 Thread howard posner
On Jan 6, 2012, at 4:17 PM, Edward Martin wrote: The usual answer is better sharp than out of tune. How silly is that? Playing sharp _is_ out of tune! Well, it's a joke, but like much humor, it's based in experience. If the orchestra is playing at 441 and the flute player comes in at 442

[LUTE] Re: Looking for the tune Walsingham

2012-01-06 Thread Stephen Fryer
On 06/01/2012 9:18 PM, Bruce O. Bowes wrote: I wonder if anyone knows of a simple arrangements of the tune Walsingham. I would be very grateful if you could give me some idea of where i might be able to find it or pass along a copy. There are a number of versions on sarge gerbode's site