I just remembered that this should have been addressed to Baroque lute, sorry about that AH
Le 2 dec. 07 =E0 18:29, Daniel Winheld a ecrit : Looking forward to these strings. Thanks for the report. Dan Dan Following my message to you about loaded strings in the context of the problem of controlling the resonance of the basses on 13c swan- necks, it suddenly dawned on me that I had given a false impression, by mentioning this string type in the context of an 18th century lute model. After rereading Mimmo Peruffo's text closely, I noticed that according to his findings this technology had been completely abandoned and could not have appeared on an 18th century 13c swan neck lute, nor even probably on a 13c rider lute, see the explanations at http://www.aquilacorde.com/lutes.htm http://tinyurl.com/2hj2sh Textual and iconographic evidence is given in this text/article above to confirm the hypothesis that Loaded strings could have appeared around 1570 and been used on 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th and 11th, course of lutes, and even on 12th courses of certain 12c lutes. See the red bass strings on this Dutch 12c lute by an anonymous Dutch painter, 2nd half of the 17th Century : http://www.aquilacorde.com/File0102.jpg http://tinyurl.com/yweurd (Indeed Mace refers to the use of Lyons and deep red gut Pistoys on the 12 course lute) However, from about the beginning of the 18th century, the German 13 course lutes could have been strung with the new open wound strings, such as those found on the 12c double headed Mest lute. http://www.aquilacorde.com/Liuti_file/image019.jpg http://tinyurl.com/yq7aho Probably, loaded strings were soon abandoned, and completely replaced by open-wound strings. So loaded strings would certainly not have been available for 18th century swan neck lutes, and indeed the rather large oval or rather small round bridge holes would tend to prove this point (see below). In fact, I was trying to report, as objectively as possible, what my lutist neighbour had told me about Mimmo Peruffo's lute at Greenwich, which did have loaded basses from 7c down to the 11c, and open-wound strings on those of 12c and 13c. I was concentrating on this; although, in the back of my mind, I think I already felt that that MP was probably using his 13c lute, for his demonstration, as two lutes: an 11c lute with loaded basses, and a 13c lute with open-wound strings; but this remained in "the mists" of my mind. It was only when I reread his text that I realized that must indeed have been the case; so I sent Mimmo a message, and he confirmed that he had intended to bring two lutes, an 11c, and a 13c, but finally found that it would be too complicated, as he was going both to Oxford as well as Greenwich, and decided he could only bring the one. Nevertheless this raises an interesting question, because my lutist neighbour found the combination excellent; so if both string types do eventually become available, would anything prevent players from mixing their strings in a non historical manner. It is certain that both Jakob Lindberg and Paul Beier did that sort of thing on their respective 11c Weiss records, as they combined the original loaded strings with Dan Larson Gimped Pistoys (Gimped Pistoys are a sort of mixture between loaded strings and open wound. They differ from open wound in having the wire twisted-in with the Pistoy tress). The fact that we see the two headed 12 string lutes (above), using the two different technologies, would presumably mean that the Mest was later restrung according to the new fashion; but I just wonder whether, even for a short time, the two technologies (open-wound and loaded) coexisted, and perhaps players might have mixed and matched, which would give some historic authenticity to such a technique. In any case, many modern lutists may just perhaps choose for the best sound, without too much concern for resulting authenticity. Indeed, there are many differing views in relation to this issue, which have often been aired on this list. However, this is not the point I want to develop, here. I am just looking at MP's findings, as one would the research of an archeologist, trying to reconstruct the technology of a certain period. This could simply be viewed as "pure" research aimed at broadening our knowledge of the conditions in which musicians played at a particular period and leave it at that (as for example when archeologists managed to revive the technology of flint knapping, which has no obvious immediate modern use). However, MP is also clearly hoping that adopting instruments and strings, closest to those used at a particular time, will give us a better understanding of the musical aesthetics of the period, claiming that the limits induced by the available technology would at least have been a contributing factor in this. Players, for example with loaded strings, would have been forced to play closer to the bridge, and with the sort of thumb down technique described by Ed. in a recent message. Personally, I have always had a passion for archeology, and I love the texture and sound of gut strings, so I take pleasure in both aspects of this research. MP's articles show that his reconstructions are the result of hypotheses developed on evidence drawn from textual and iconographic data, confronted with the clues from the size of lute holes, and the winding technology and chemical knowledge available at each period. As I would do in my phonetic research, Mimmo formulates his hypotheses so as to be able to validate, or invalidate them when encountering future data, new iconographic evidence, more lute holes, etc. I find much enjoyment in this approach, and I do apologize to those who feel I get a little carried away. I do also assure you that any other research of this kind would receive my interest. Indeed, I am briefly involved in an experiment with Titanium-Nylon, about which I may talk, later, if anything conclusive comes out of it (I am not completely "hermetic to synthetics"). I would also be glad to talk about any experimentation by any other string maker, but I have found no web page so open as those of Mimmo's. There are those old articles by Ephraim Segerman, but most of these I do not have access to at the moment. (http://www.nrinstruments.demon.co.uk/LuSt.html). There would also be the research by Charles Besnaiou of the CNRS. http://tinyurl.com/2xvko8 In conclusion, 13c rider lutes from about 1710 would probably just have had open-wound basses. (This may not prevent lutists from experimenting with mixing string types, as perhaps there might have been an overlap, between string technologies). Swan necked lutes could be a special case. It is certain that they did not employ high twist ropes as these would have been too dull. They could not have used loaded strings, as these had been abandoned, and the size of the bridge holes are far too large. Another argument against the use of plain gut is the relatively short length of the extension (about 1m), when 1m 20 would give a superior thinner basses in pure gut. It is far more likely that they employed open wound strings and the size and shape of the bridge holes militate in favour of this possibility. On a number of 13c lutes there is "A strong vertical ovalization of bass bridge holes and signs of abrasion on the upper plate edges" that could be due to the effect of demi-file strings. A very good example of this could be the Leopold Widhalm 1755 (GNM MI 51)13c swan neck lute that was used by Hoppy in his early Weiss LP, Reflexe 1978 EMI 065-30 944, of which I have a copy (the record, not the lute, unfortunately). The largest hole on the 13th diapason is 2,05. http://s105.photobucket.com/albums/m215/ag-no3phile/lute%20playing/ Lute%20type/?action=view¤t=DSCF0490.jpg http://tinyurl.com/2z6jtb An interesting question remains, the holes on some swan neck lutes are rather big and oval shaped (because of the shape, this could be due to the tendency of demi-file to "file" the hole. For example, the Leopold Widhalm, shown above, has a 13th diapason of 2.05 mm); while on other lutes, such as the "J.Tielke swan neck (Hamburg 1713)", the 13c holes are very small but regular, down to 1,40mm. Such a small size would be far too small for any pure gut bass; but would be big enough for a demi-file. Thus the use of open-wound strings seems the most plausible explanation, with the variation in size (quite wide and oval on some lutes), possibly being due, at least in part, to the filing action of these strings. Open-wound strings, as my neighbour did testify, do not in fact, have the sustain of full-wound strings, even if they might be slightly brighter than loaded strings, and they could work well in this situation. They certainly did on a 13c rider lute, the one Mimmo Peruffo brought for his demonstration. Regards Anthony Nigel According to Mimmo Peruffo, his new loaded strings would be more stable to temperature and humidity influences even than synthetics. I imagine this could be due to the loading by a sort of tanning process. Perhaps the oxide? covering protects the string. A lutist neighbour of mine had the possibility of actually trying out these strings on Mimmo Peruffo's lute in a small room at the Greenwich meeting, in England, for over an hour and with only two other persons present. Obviously the lute was completely strung in Aquila gut, but the middle strings were in Venice, the basses down to 11c were loaded, and the basses down to 13c were open wound Mest types. First, he was struck by the fact that the change from bass to middle, and to treble was so exceptionally smooth. This was a stated aim of MP in a message he sent to us; but this lutist felt he had never heard a lute with such a smooth change. He was a little surprised at the quality of the sound, as the lute itself had a crack in the soundboard. However, he tells me the basses really had him amazed. He says it might not be noticeable when you change one string, but when you have all loaded gut basses + Mest, there is a completely different response to the instrument. It is as though there is a slight delay and then a sudden development and then a rapid decay, (perhaps, like a consonant followed by a vowel), so that there is absolutely no overhang like with wirewounds. Actually, that sounds much like I have always found with gut basses; but on previous occasions, he told me, he had found gut basses just too thick, and unresponsive, these were different, he clained. The loaded strings must be thinner, of course. He said the sound is in some way more "earthy" with more texture. I think that means something like "terroir" for a wine, if you know what I mean. The whole sound seemed so well articulated, he said. Now, I do hope those strings will soon become available, but I certainly would not want to put Mimmo Peruffo under any pressure. I am sure his time (and my patience) is an essential ingredient, just like the production of a top wine =8A Best regards Anthony PS I am not myself down rating any other string types. I am not too bothered by thickish strings and I like Larson gimped. However, the more variation there is in gut strings the more chance there will be for finding the right strings for a particular lute. I am happy with Venice strings on my Gerle, because they allowed me to remove a certain bass heaviness, probably due to the plummy Gerle shape (well actually that is what the sound was like, plummy mid-bass). It is not clear that would be what you are looking for on a different shaped lute. Le 2 dec. 07 =E0 16:46, Nigel Solomon a ecrit : Edward Martin wrote: Yes, Nigel, I do it all the time. In fact, I had a concert in humid August this year, in which I performed on a Scottich mandour, an 11 course, and a 13 course bass rider lute. All are in gut (that is all I have had for baroque lutes for the past 12 years), and I did not have to adjust one single peg to re-tune. The only time I have tuning trouble is when the climate is changed during performance (i.e. someone turns off air conditioner, etc) The gut these days is so much more stable than the gut of some years ago. I actually find it easier to deal with, as compared to wound strings. ed At 10:40 AM 12/2/2007 +0100, Nigel Solomon wrote: (has anybody ever tried keeping 24 gut strings in tune successfully for the time needed to play a single Weiss courante?). Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------- Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. Oh well, that told me! I guess you have to get to the venue hours before though to enable the instruments to adjust to the humidity. I am not flying a flag for synthetic strings, just that on the whole they are a little more reliable (particularly Pyramid wound which, despite sounding a bit tinny at first, just don't budge whatever the weather, etc. On my theorbo I have one wound Pyramid, the 6th (A) and I use it as a reference for keeping all the other strings in tune throughout the concert) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Rachel Winheld 820 Colusa Avenue Berkeley, CA 94707 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel 510.526.0242 Cell 510.915.4276 --