In a message dated 3/17/2005 4:58:57 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Yesterday I played the 2 Sor pieces from
http://polyhymnion.org/swv/opus-2.html
on my 13-course. Did it turn it into a guitar?
Hi Roman,
I was just thinking some of Sor's etudes might sound really well on
or different. In any case, this is how we use these words it in the NEW
country.
My warmest regards to all,
Marion
-Original Message-
From: Martyn Hodgson
Sent: Mar 16, 2005 11:48 AM
To: Roman Turovsky
Cc: Lute Net
Subject: Re: Hoffmann Mandora/Gallichon
Thank you Roman,
in short - a guitar
Subject: Re: Hoffmann Mandora/Gallichon
Thank you for your comments Mathias, but:
- are you not aware that guitars were made in lute shape in the 19thC (and
in
other shapes as well for that matter - eg lyre guitar).
- defining a guitar as a 'shallow bodied' instrument is surely asking
Incidentally, on this business of early steps towards using 'old'
instruments in performance,
are you aware of the 1845 concert in which Ventura (the harp-lute-guitar man
and principal competitor of Edward Light) played the theorbo (Galpin Soc
Journal 1989). There's no evidence as to how
Mathias,
Thank you fr this - I'm not quite sure the point you're making. I specifically
said that we ought not to think of V's instrument as a guitar - my comment
point about the tuning he might have employed was an altogether different
point; I'm sorry if this was not clear enough. As has
Mathias,
Thank you fr this - I'm not quite sure the point you're making. I
specifically said that we ought not to think of V's instrument as a guitar -
my comment point about the tuning he might have employed was an altogether
different point; I'm sorry if this was not clear enough. As
I've written quite a bit on my thoughts of this in correspondence with
various characters on and off list, so I'll try to focus here as much as
I'm able.
At 07:47 PM 3/16/2005, Dr. Marion Ceruti wrote:
In biology (and Eugene will correct me if I am wrong) if something is
sufficiently difficult
Message-
From: Martyn Hodgson
Sent: Mar 17, 2005 12:21 AM
To: Dr. Marion = Ceruti
Cc: Lute Net
S= ubject: Re: Hoffmann Mandora/Gallichon
Marion,
Thank you - but I'm not sure ths is really relevant - in particul= ar what
authority composed the Webster's entry?
rgds
M
Subject: Re: Hoffmann Mandora/Gallichon
I've written quite a bit on my thoughts of this in correspondence with
various characters on and off list, so I'll try to focus here as much as
I'm able.
At 07:47 PM 3/16/2005, Dr. Marion Ceruti wrote:
In biology (and Eugene will correct me if I am wrong
An interesting study
(that I don't have time to do) would be to develop an ontology of musical
instruments and their characteristics at a fine-grained level of detail.
Finer the grinding, more detail lost, FYI.
RT
To get on or off this list see list information at
Please, Roman - I was v careful to insert the adjective 'only' in front of
'music' ; perhaps I ought to have gone even further and made it clear I'm
speaking about the instrument in the normal guitar tuning. I can't think what
else wld have been done with it in the mid 19thC.
To my mind
Please, Roman - I was v careful to insert the adjective 'only' in front of
'music' ; perhaps I ought to have gone even further and made it clear I'm
speaking about the instrument in the normal guitar tuning. I can't think what
else wld have been done with it in the mid 19thC.
There are a few
www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
- Original Message -
From: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Arto Wikla
[EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: Hoffmann Mandora/Gallichon
Dear Eugene,
Thank you for responding
: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Mar 17, 2005 10:39 AM
To: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED],
Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED],
Arto Wikla [EMAIL PROTECTED], lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: Re: Hoffmann Mandora/Gallichon
++This becomes problematic. there often
Dear all
On Thu, 17 Mar 2005, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote:
Put a horse and a donkey together, and you get an obviously intermediary
hybrid, the mule. Nobody is giving birth to dragons and chimeras.
This reminds me of an old story that happened to me years ago. I have
told the story also here
Dear Arto,
...he told me he would like to build a lute himself. I said that
I know where you can order drawings of original lutes. He answered: No,
no, I want to make it just from my own ideas. If that guy some day made
something, which he called lute, what was that thing afterall? Was it a
Thank you for your comments Mathias, but:
- are you not aware that guitars were made in lute shape in the 19thC (and in
other shapes as well for that matter - eg lyre guitar).
- defining a guitar as a 'shallow bodied' instrument is surely asking for
trouble - probably better to relate to
-
From: Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Mar 16, 2005 1:05 AM
To: Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: Re: Hoffmann Mandora/Gallichon
Thank you for your comments Mathias, but:
- are you not aware that guitars were made in lute shape in the 19thC
Hear, hear Dr. Marion,
In my opinion how it could be used is more important than what you call it.
Depending on how you tune a six-course instrument, it could function as
a guitar, requinto (actually a requinto lute in this case), renaissance
lute,
a laud, or a mandolino lombardo ottavo.
I
@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: Re: Hoffmann Mandora/Gallichon
Thank you for your comments Mathias, but:
- are you not aware that guitars were made in lute shape in the 19thC (and in
other shapes as well for that matter - eg lyre guitar).
- defining a guitar as a 'shallow bodied' instrument
In my opinion how it could be used is more important than what you call it.
that would indeed be the case, if some of the names were synonymous.
However, each name stands for a certain tuning, stringing, kind of
playing, and repertoire.
--
Regards
Mathias
--
To get on or off this list see
Thank you for your critique, Martyn, but:
as far as I'm aware, guitars are defined as box-neck-lutes, i. e. with a
neck and a box-like body (kastenhalslauten, in German), as opposed to
shell-neck-lutes, i. e. with a neck and a shell-like body
(schalenhalslauten) which are what most of us are used
Precisely my point
regards,
Martyn
Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In my opinion how it could be used is more important than what you call it.
that would indeed be the case, if some of the names were synonymous.
However, each name stands for a certain tuning, stringing, kind of
not atypical. Both Budapest
Jauch and Brunner baroque lutes suffered this at some point during the 19th
century.
RT
--
http://polyhymnion.org/torban
-Original Message-
From: Martyn Hodgson
Sent: Mar 16, 2005 1:05 AM
To: Mathias R?
Cc: Lute Net
Subject: Re: Hoffmann Mandora
, 2005 1:05 AM
To: Mathias R?
Cc: Lute Net
Subject: Re: Hoffmann Mandora/Gallichon
Thank you for your comments Mathias, but:
- are you not aware that guitars were made in lute shape in the 19thC (and in
other shapes as well for that matter - eg lyre guitar).
- defining a guitar
/torban
-Original Message-
From: Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Mar 16, 2005 1:05 AM
To: Mathias R? [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: Re: Hoffmann Mandora/Gallichon
Thank you for your comments Mathias, but:
- are you not aware
-Original Message-
From: Martyn Hodgson
Sent: Mar 16, 2005 1:05 AM
To: Mathias R?
Cc: Lute Net
Subject: Re: Hoffmann Mandora/Gallichon
Thank you for your comments Mathias, but:
- are you not aware that guitars were made in lute shape in the 19thC (and in
other
Martyn,
since usage of musical instruments has in many cases been uncertain,
musicologists tend to define musical instruments by their building
structure. As for kastenhals (box-like body + neck) vs schalenhals
(shell-like body + neck) lutes, that definition can be traced back to
Curt Sachs or
Dear Marion,
you are certainly right in saying that many of us draw artificial
boundaries for ourselves that restrict our playing. You may string and
play any instrument the way and kind you wish to play and have fun. But
the issue I try to pursue is, rather, which way the instrument in
question
Subject: Re: Hoffmann Mandora/Gallichon
Thank you for your comments Mathias, but:
- are you not aware that guitars were made in lute shape in the 19thC (and
in
other shapes as well for that matter - eg lyre guitar).
- defining a guitar as a 'shallow bodied' instrument is surely asking
-Original Message-
From: Martyn Hodgson
Sent: Mar 16, 2005 1:05 AM
To: Mathias R?
Cc: Lute Net
Subject: Re: Hoffmann Mandora/Gallichon
Thank you for your comments Mathias, but:
- are you not aware that guitars were made in lute shape in the 19thC (and
in
other shapes as well
suffered this at some point during the 19th
century.
RT
--
http://polyhymnion.org/torban
-Original Message-
From: Martyn Hodgson
Sent: Mar 16, 2005 1:05 AM
To: Mathias R?
Cc: Lute Net
Subject: Re: Hoffmann Mandora/Gallichon
Thank you for your comments Mathias
Budapest
Jauch and Brunner baroque lutes suffered this at some point during the 19th
century.
RT
--
http://polyhymnion.org/torban
-Original Message-
From: Martyn Hodgson
Sent: Mar 16, 2005 1:05 AM
To: Mathias R?
Cc: Lute Net
Subject: Re: Hoffmann Mandora/Gallichon
]
Sent: Mar 16, 2005 11:48 AM
To: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: Re: Hoffmann Mandora/Gallichon
Thank you Roman,
in short - a guitar
M
Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
A lautenguitarre of sorts, REMARCABLY with original double-strung set-up
Dear all
On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, Dr. Marion Ceruti wrote:
To clarify the semantics, one can refer to the following definitions
from Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary:
Actually the general dictionaries are not a reliable source of definitions
of special subjects as musicology or especially
Martyn Hodgson mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
Thank you Roman,
in short - a guitar
well, everyone is free to pray the way he or she wants to.
Regards
Mathias
--
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Dear Marion,
yes, the mandora in question is a 18th century lute with 6 to 9 courses.
There is an recently published article available in the net
http://www.marincola.com/
click on LuteBot (left margin), and then #5 (middle). There, you will
find Pietro Prosser's thesis on the mandora / the
Guitar - a flat-bodied stringed instrument with a long fretted neck and
usually six strings plucked with a pick or with the fingers.
quite exact. During 19th and 20th centuries there were quite a lot of
types in existence, differing in size and number of strings, after all.
Interestingly
1:48 PM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: Re: Hoffmann Mandora/Gallichon
Dear all
On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, Dr. Marion Ceruti wrote:
To clarify the semantics, one can refer to the following definitions
from Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary:
Actually the general dictionaries are not a reliable
the best,
Marion
-Original Message-
From: Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Mar 16, 2005 3:47 PM
To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: Re: Hoffmann Mandora/Gallichon
Dear Marion,
yes, the mandora in question is a 18th century lute with 6 to 9 courses.
There is an recently
Dr. Marion Ceruti wrote:
These terms are in common
usage. I am not particularly satisfied that this is the best that can be done
with definitions, but this is what the words mean in American English.
I'm guessing that 99.999%, give or take a few, of the persons who've used
the word guitar in
Dear Howard,
Please see my comments below.
Have a nice evening,
Marion
-Original Message-
From: Howard Posner [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Mar 16, 2005 5:08 PM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: Re: Hoffmann Mandora/Gallichon
Dr. Marion Ceruti wrote:
These terms are in common
usage. I am
In a message dated 3/16/2005 5:37:40 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
++Unfortunately this has just been demonstrated graphically among a group
of people who should know better. Without mentioning the name of the
organization specifically, when a (past not current) membership
PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: Re: Hoffmann Mandora/Gallichon
In a message dated 3/16/2005 5:37:40 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
++Unfortunately this has just been demonstrated graphically among a group
of people who should know better. Without
My view is that it is most likely a guitar (or rather late 19thC german
lute/guitar) conversion direct from a lute. There are numerous examples of
18thC Colachons/mandoras (see Gill et als) and leaving aside the obvious guitar
conversion features (eg bridge, rose) it looks pretty atypical (eg
My view is that it is most likely a guitar (or rather late 19thC german
lute/guitar) conversion direct from a lute. There are numerous examples of
18thC Colachons/mandoras (see Gill et als) and leaving aside the obvious
guitar conversion features (eg bridge, rose) it looks pretty atypical (eg
My view is that it is most likely a guitar
guitars have shallow bodies, by definition, or so I'm told. Whatsoever
this is, it is not a guitar.
(or rather late 19thC german lute/guitar) conversion direct from a
lute.
wandervogel lutes (if that is what you meant to say) have single
strings,
Seems to be A MANDORA, but the top is not original, was made into a guitar.
RT
http://polyhymnion.org
From: Hans Kockelmans [EMAIL PROTECTED]
A strange lute by Joh Christian Hoffmann, 1733 for sale. What could it be? A
colascione?
http://www.music-treasures.com/ click on
Roman Turovsky mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
Seems to be A MANDORA, but the top is not original, was made into a guitar.
The instrument has six courses, if I'm not mistaken, not five (so, it's
not what is generally accepted as guitar). According to Pohlmann's list
(2nd ed. 1982), mandoras
I don't like that bridge position.
RT
Seems to be A MANDORA, but the top is not original, was made into a guitar.
The instrument has six courses, if I'm not mistaken, not five (so, it's
not what is generally accepted as guitar). According to Pohlmann's list
(2nd ed. 1982), mandoras from
I don't like that bridge position.
nor do I. The position of the bridge and the curved shape of the pegbox
remind me of the so-called Wagner-Laute (Magnus Tieffenbrucker, 1610,
now preserved in Wagner-Museum, Triebschen / Luzern) which has probably
been rebuilt and has similar traits.
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