Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

On Thu, 14 Jun 2001 11:04:00 -0700 Chuq Von Rospach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > and passwords on unsubs are silly (sorry, Barry). Users who want > to unsubscribe want off. they don't want to play games, they just > want to leave. I have, in the last decade, seen ONE instance of > forged unsubs

Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

On Fri, 15 Jun 2001 09:17:34 +0200 Enriko Groen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Owh... these bloody newbies on the net... Amateurs! Really! -- J C Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] -(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ The pressure to su

RE: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

> -Original Message- > From: Chuq Von Rospach [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > sorry, folks. That was meant to go privately, not to the > entire list. I > pushed the wrong button. Owh... these bloody newbies on the net... -- Enriko Groen, Hosting manager --

Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

On Thursday, June 14, 2001, at 12:43 PM, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > I think I'm gonna go find a tree to sit under. I'll be back later. > sorry, folks. That was meant to go privately, not to the entire list. I pushed the wrong button. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome

Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

On Thursday, June 14, 2001, at 12:37 PM, J C Lawrence wrote: > On three occasions we > had unsub wars rather than "admit defeat" in an argument. I love that kind of person. Hell, when I was young and had to win fights, I was that person. it's kinda weird to be doing the "in the Good Old days

Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

On Thu, Jun 14, 2001 at 11:04:00AM -0700, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: [snip] > A small percentage. maybe 1/2 of 1%. The problem is that their hassle > factor is way out of proportion to their numbers. Agreed. [snip] > > Try working a cash > > register for a couple months and you'll see how true th

Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

On Thursday, June 14, 2001, at 07:41 AM, JT wrote: > Any job that brings you into contact with the > general public is going to bring you to the inescapable conclusions > that a good percentage of the population might as well walk around > dressed in animal skins, dragging a human femur. A smal

Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

On Thursday, June 14, 2001, at 09:51 AM, J C Lawrence wrote: Yup. I see it in myself Me, too -- lest anyone think I believe myself some instantiation of perfection. What I try to do, though, is realize that I'm getting grumpy, and then go somewhere quiet so that I don't leak my grumpy on others

Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

On Jun 14, 2001 at 09:57, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: >Or, with a little more work, do both. New subscribers get the newbie >template -- and for users who want a more expert version, allow them to >set an option to turn it on. That's a classic way to make a system easy >without turning it into a m

Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

On Thu, Jun 14, 2001 at 07:55:22AM -0700, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > And I note for the record that my suggestion that everyone stop blaming > mailman's problems on stupid users and instead go fix mailman fell on > deaf ears -- but it seems to have shut down the thread at the same time. > Becaus

Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

On Thursday, June 14, 2001, at 09:43 AM, Harold Paulson wrote: >> Perhaps an install-time or >> list-creation-time option to choose standard templates or 'newbie' >> templates would be a good idea. > An expert and newbie template, Yum! Or, with a little more work, do both. New subscribers get

Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

On Thu, 14 Jun 2001 07:55:22 -0700 Chuq Von Rospach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Thursday, June 14, 2001, at 12:44 AM, J C Lawrence wrote: >> Maintaining good will and earnestness in the face of continual >> unresponsive blunt assault tends to be dehumanising. > You even see it on this list

Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

On Thu, 14 Jun 2001 10:41:48 -0400, JT wrote: [deletia] >users (like web *and* mail-command use). Perhaps an install-time or >list-creation-time option to choose standard templates or 'newbie' >templates would be a good idea. If I get time to write an alternate >template, or if I write one fo

Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

On Thursday, June 14, 2001, at 12:44 AM, J C Lawrence wrote: > Maintaining > good will and earnestness in the face of continual unresponsive > blunt assault tends to be dehumanising. You even see it on this list, both at the people who come here to ask questions, and among the regular residen

Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

On Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 12:21:30PM -0700, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: [snip] > > why is the internet supposed to be immune from real life? you've never > seen people who are too busy/important to stand in line at a store? who > are annoying/obnoxious/abusive to a clerk? Name your favorite poison --

Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

Some wisdom posted on the exim list a while back (on the subject of trying to persuade people that its not some person with good typing skills sending out bounce messages) may fit into the current discussion. See http://www.exim.org/pipermail/exim-users/Week-of-Mon-2710/019372.html N

Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

On Thu, Jun 14, 2001 at 12:44:10AM -0700, J C Lawrence wrote: > Do some Google searches on Chuq. He's earned, not claimed, his > laurels. You're preaching to the choir. :) -- Linux Now! ..Because friends don't let friends use Microsoft. phil stracchino -- the renaissance man

Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:40:35 -0700 arandall wrote: > ::shaking head:: And then there's the fact that my boss flipped > when he saw I hadn't plugged a mouse into the server we were > setting up ... "But how will you get to anything?" ...what's > wrong with the keyboard? The central intellectu

Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:38:58 -0700 Phil Stracchino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 08:44:14AM -0700, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: >> I think the "teach them to fish" mode worked in earlier >> days. Today, too many people feel everyone else owes them >> whatever they want. > It's

Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

On Wednesday 13 June 2001 09:53 am, JC Dill wrote: > On 04:38 AM 6/13/01, Ed Wilts wrote: > >On Wednesday 13 June 2001 02:25 am, Enriko Groen wrote: > >> And frustrated too because they get 70 emails or so a day and don't > >> know how to leave the list. > > > >All they have to do is to displ

Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

Darn good reality checks Chuq, thanks. :) > "CVR" == Chuq Von Rospach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: CVR> What can be done to clean up mailman's rough edges and make CVR> it easier ot use, especially by the end-user who's not a CVR> techie? where is the documentation weak? or missi

Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > Can I program a boot rom? nope. Can you? A virtual memory implementation? > > Why do some of us make the assumption that because someone is trained, > technical or smart (choose whichever term you prefer) that this somehow > endows them with the magical ability to us

Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

On Wednesday, June 13, 2001, at 12:33 PM, Barry A. Warsaw wrote: > A> tools, etc., complain that unsubscribing from a freaking > A> newsletter is "too technical" ? > > I once knew of a chief of a very large medical informatics research > organization that never learned how to use a mouse

Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

> How can you do more than that? ;) Well, I think we ought to call the product something with the word "Mail" in it, so people know that it's about email. And the mailing lists should be named something with "mail" in the name, too. Sarcastic-to-within-an-inch-of-everyone's-life-ly yours...

Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

"Barry A. Warsaw" wrote: > I once knew of a chief of a very large medical informatics research > organization that never learned how to use a mouse. Mouse? What's a mouse? We don't need no stinkin' mouse! You know, on the flip side of that coin, when I was working (specifically) as a QA, a bug

Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

> "A" == Amanda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: A> What I want to know is, how can someone who runs filmless A> contrast-doppler radiology equipment, or microneurosurgical A> tools, etc., complain that unsubscribing from a freaking A> newsletter is "too technical" ? I once knew

Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

On Wednesday, June 13, 2001, at 12:08 PM, Phil Stracchino wrote: > What gets me frustrated is the > people who actively *don't want* to understand, because no matter how > simple it is, they want it done for them why is the internet supposed to be immune from real life? you've never seen peopl

Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

On Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 11:46:41AM -0700, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > > On Wednesday, June 13, 2001, at 11:38 AM, Phil Stracchino wrote: > > > They don't want you to teach them how to fish ... > > learning is hard, and they might hurt themselves on the hook. > > Is it the idiot's fault if they ca

Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

On Wednesday, June 13, 2001, at 11:38 AM, Phil Stracchino wrote: > They don't want you to teach them how to fish ... > learning is hard, and they might hurt themselves on the hook. many times, this really means we need improved fish hooks. Frankly -- while list server software has made big imp

Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

On Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 08:44:14AM -0700, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > I think the "teach them to fish" mode worked in earlier days. Today, too > many people feel everyone else owes them whatever they want. It's all part of the culture of abdication of personal responsibility and the nanny society

Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

JC Dill wrote: > I don't let clueless newbies tell me what they want me to do for > them. Period. Occasionally someone tries to boss me around and gets > roasted for their efforts. I bet they won't try that again with the next > list admin... And if it keeps them off mailing lists entirely (g

Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

On Jun 13, 2001 at 09:59, JC Dill wrote: >On 08:17 AM 6/13/01, Satya wrote: > >The software that hides so many headers with no way of viewing them is > >broken. > >Yes, and AOL 6 is broken in that it doesn't (easily) let the sender send in >Plain Text. If 20% of your users use AOL 6, what are y

Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

On Jun 13, 2001 at 08:08, JC Dill wrote: >On 06:56 AM 6/13/01, Barry A. Warsaw wrote: > >The first sentence under the "Requirements, Download" section of > >Mailman currently runs only on Unix-y systems, such as Linux, > Put it on the home page. Not a bad idea, but the requirements se

Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

On Wednesday, June 13, 2001, at 09:55 AM, JC Dill wrote: > Which means that they will expect ME to do the same when they come to > my list. You don't have to kvetch at me over this. I know this. I've been on the net for 20 years now, teaching people how to fish. I've taught enough people to

Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

On 08:17 AM 6/13/01, Satya wrote: >On Jun 13, 2001 at 07:53, JC Dill wrote: > >>There are too many people on the Internet these days who CAN NOT view all >>the message headers. AOL hides many headers. Hotmail hides many >>headers. Yahoo hides many headers. Even if there is some process th

Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

On 08:44 AM 6/13/01, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > >On Wednesday, June 13, 2001, at 07:53 AM, JC Dill wrote: > >> I subscribe to the "teach them to fish" method, > >I used to. Now I'm in the "parents don't want justice, they want quiet" >mode, and I do what's fastest and easiest for me, which i

Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

On Jun 13, 2001 at 07:53, JC Dill wrote: >There are too many people on the Internet these days who CAN NOT view all >the message headers. AOL hides many headers. Hotmail hides many >headers. Yahoo hides many headers. Even if there is some process the user Opposite of what some others want

Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

On Wednesday, June 13, 2001, at 07:53 AM, JC Dill wrote: > I subscribe to the "teach them to fish" method, I used to. Now I'm in the "parents don't want justice, they want quiet" mode, and I do what's fastest and easiest for me, which is usually to just unsubscribe them. I've had one too many

Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

On 06:56 AM 6/13/01, Barry A. Warsaw wrote: > >> "EG" == Enriko Groen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > >EG> Wouldn't it be good to state that Mailman is for Unix servers >EG> only in the beginning of the websites pages? I think it would >EG> bounce of a few dozen of people who

Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

On 04:38 AM 6/13/01, Ed Wilts wrote: >On Wednesday 13 June 2001 02:25 am, Enriko Groen wrote: > >> And frustrated too because they get 70 emails or so a day and don't know >> how to leave the list. > >All they have to do is to display the headers of one of the mail messages. >The unsubscrib

Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

> "EG" == Enriko Groen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: EG> Wouldn't it be good to state that Mailman is for Unix servers EG> only in the beginning of the websites pages? I think it would EG> bounce of a few dozen of people who subscribe to this list and EG> will get disapointed

Re: [Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

On Wednesday 13 June 2001 02:25 am, Enriko Groen wrote: > And frustrated too because they get 70 emails or so a day and don't know > how to leave the list. All they have to do is to display the headers of one of the mail messages. The unsubscribe information is in there. .../Ed --

[Mailman-Users] This is unixstuff warning

Heyhey, Wouldn't it be good to state that Mailman is for Unix servers only in the beginning of the websites pages? I think it would bounce of a few dozen of people who subscribe to this list and will get disapointed anyway. And frustrated too because they get 70 emails or so a day and don't know