I have TWICE signed off all these Virgil-mantovano things, and have had confirmation of same, so why am I still getting them? -Barry Baldwin
On Sun, 26 Sep 1999 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > VIRGIL Digest Sunday, 26 September 1999 Volume 01 : Number 059 > > Re: VIRGIL: Another Virgilius Maro? > Re: VIRGIL: Another Virgilius Maro? > Re: VIRGIL: More Vergils > Re: VIRGIL: More Vergils > Re: VIRGIL: More Vergils > Re: VIRGIL: More Vergils > Re: VIRGIL: More Vergils > Re: VIRGIL: More Vergils > Thank you message from API > Casali on Treason > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Hans Zimmermann) > Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 23:05:40 +0200 > Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Another Virgilius Maro? > > James Butrica schrieb: > > ><< Message forwarded by moderator follows. >> > > > > > >From: "F. Heberlein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 09:08:46 +1 > > > > > >> Does someone know about a philosopher or grammarian > > >> called « Virgilius Maro » who was living in the 7th > > >> century? I would like to read something about this > > >> author, his life, his works. > > >> > > >This is Vergilius Maro Grammaticus, famous for his claim to have > > >attended in his youth a 13 days dispute on the correct vocative of "ego" > > >(now and then i ask our undergrads the 'correct' solution, and more > > >than often i get replies like "o ege" ...). > > > > > > > Under what circumstances would one use a vocative form of the 1st-person > > singular pronoun? And please don't keep us in suspense: which form did VMG > > regard as "correct," and which were the competing forms? > > yes, funny indeed, but let's remember the Greek neighbour form: > Odysseias e (book 5), 299: "ô moi egô deilos ..." > > grusz, hansz > http://home.t-online.de/home/03581413454/sprachen.htm > > > ------------------------------ > > From: Greg Farnum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 17:01:03 -0400 > Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Another Virgilius Maro? > > I must apologize to Peter from Perth, he DID NOT claim that Virgil Thompson > was the first. I plead a hasty and furtive reading at work as my extenuating > circumstance. Still, the discussion is an interesting one; and yes, the name > Homer, when pinned on an American, is just as hayseed as Virgil. > > Greg Farnum > > > Jim O'Hara wrote: > > > ..... and its American use as a > > >first name is exemplified by (5) the composer Virgil Thomson, and (7) a > > >television character in "McHale's Navy". Are there any others, I wonder? > > > > > >Best wishes > > >Peter JVD BRYANT > > >Perth > > >Western Australia > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Nine major-league baseball players, eight born 1894-1917, and one in the > > 20's, have been named Virgil: > > >From http://www.totalbaseball.com/ > > Virgil Abernathy > > Virgil Barnes > > Virgil Cheeves > > Virgil Davis > > Virgil Garriott > > Virgil Garvin > > Virgil Jester > > Thomas Virgil "Red" Stallcup > > Virgil Trucks > > > > Jim O'Hara James J. O'Hara > > Professor of Classical Studies & Chair Classical Studies Dept. > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University > > 860/685-2066 (fax: 2089) Middletown CT 06459-0146 > > Home Page: http://www.wesleyan.edu/classics/faculty/jim.html > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > > > ------------------------------ > > From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 23:09:31 +0100 > Subject: Re: VIRGIL: More Vergils > > In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > edu>, RANDI C ELDEVIK <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes > >Yes, I have to acknowledge that those hillbilly associations do exist, in > >the U.S. context; the same for the name Homer, unfortunately. But I don't > >know how that came about, and I wish I knew. Homer and Virgil are my two > >favorite poets, but if I had wanted to name my son in honor of one or both > >of them, my husband would have rebelled--understandably, given the U.S. > >ambience. > > What's the British attitude? Doesn't anyone there give the name > >Homer or Virgil to their son? After all, one meets Englishmen named > >Terence, etc. > > Can't say I've ever come across or heard of a British 'Homer' or > 'Virgil', high, low, or middle class. > > Leofranc Holford-Strevens > *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* > > Leofranc Holford-Strevens > 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone > Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? > OX2 6EJ > > tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) > > *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* > > ------------------------------ > > From: Caroline Butler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Wed, 22 Sep 99 23:40:56 +0100 > Subject: Re: VIRGIL: More Vergils > > I knew a cat called Virgil once, but I don't suppose that counts. > > Caroline Butler > > ------------------------------ > > From: Caroline Butler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Wed, 22 Sep 99 23:40:56 +0100 > Subject: Re: VIRGIL: More Vergils > > I knew a cat called Virgil once, but I don't suppose that counts. > > Caroline Butler > > ------------------------------ > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Simon Cauchi) > Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 10:36:38 +1200 > Subject: Re: VIRGIL: More Vergils > > > What's the British attitude? Doesn't anyone there give the name > >Homer or Virgil to their son? After all, one meets Englishmen named > >Terence, etc. > > To someone like me brought up in the UK, Homer and Virgil used as forenames > sound distinctly American -- I didn't know they had a hillbilly ring. In > England I don't think Terence is taken to allude to the Roman playwright. > Nor Horace to the poet. I've never heard of anyone called Plautus or > Catullus. I'm sure I've heard or read of a dog called Virgil (or perhaps it > was Vergil) but I can't remember where. In Malta there was (is?) a fashion > for Greek names, e.g. Sir Themistocles Zammit. > > Back to work! (I'm editing a book on a field of study I didn't even know > existed -- the constitutional law of revolutions. Cases cited come from > Restoration England, the secessionist South, UDI Rhodesia, Grenada, Fiji, > Queensland, etc., but so far nothing from ancient Rome, unless you count a > quotation from De Civ. Dei, IV, 4.) > > Simon Cauchi, Hamilton, New Zealand > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > ------------------------------ > > From: "Miryam y César Librán Moreno" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 17:21:08 +0200 > Subject: Re: VIRGIL: More Vergils > > I can´t comment on any English usage, but here in Spain Virgilio (obviously, > Vergil) has been consistently used as a Christian name, with no implications > whatsoever. Homer has never, to my knowledge, been used. Now the situation in > South America is very different... you have the *lot *of Roman/Greek names, > which apparently carry no special connotations. > > Regards, Miryam > > > > What's the British attitude? Doesn't anyone there give the name > > >Homer or Virgil to their son? After all, one meets Englishmen named > > >Terence, etc. > > > > To someone like me brought up in the UK, Homer and Virgil used as forenames > > sound distinctly American -- I didn't know they had a hillbilly ring. In > > England I don't think Terence is taken to allude to the Roman playwright. > > Nor Horace to the poet. I've never heard of anyone called Plautus or > > Catullus. I'm sure I've heard or read of a dog called Virgil (or perhaps it > > was Vergil) but I can't remember where. In Malta there was (is?) a fashion > > for Greek names, e.g. Sir Themistocles Zammit. > > > > Back to work! (I'm editing a book on a field of study I didn't even know > > existed -- the constitutional law of revolutions. Cases cited come from > > Restoration England, the secessionist South, UDI Rhodesia, Grenada, Fiji, > > Queensland, etc., but so far nothing from ancient Rome, unless you count a > > quotation from De Civ. Dei, IV, 4.) > > > > Simon Cauchi, Hamilton, New Zealand > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > > > > - -- > *************************************************************************** > ...There was Delphinus Polyglott. He told us what had become of the > eighty-three lost tragedies of Aeschylus; of the fifty-four orations of > Isaeus; > of the three hundred and ninety-one speeches of Lysias; of the hundred and > eighty treatises of Theophrastus; of the eighth book of the conic sections of > Apollonius; of Pindar´s hymns and dithyrambics; and of the five and forty > tragedies of Homer Junior. > E.A. Poe > *************************************************************************** > > > > ------------------------------ > > From: RANDI C ELDEVIK <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 09:12:29 -0500 (CDT) > Subject: Re: VIRGIL: More Vergils > > It just occurred to me--there was that eminent medievalist (American) > named Charles Homer Haskins. Somehow "Homer" as a middle name in between > "Charles" and "Haskins" doesn't sound quite so bad. "Homer Haskins" _tout > court_ would have a hillbilly ring to it. I still wish I knew why, > though. > Randi Eldevik > Oklahoma State University > > On Thu, 23 Sep 1999, Miryam y [UNKNOWN] C=E9sar Libr=E1n Moreno wrote: > > > I can=B4t comment on any English usage, but here in Spain Virgilio (obvio= > usly, > > Vergil) has been consistently used as a Christian name, with no implicati= > ons > > whatsoever. Homer has never, to my knowledge, been used. Now the situatio= > n in > > South America is very different... you have the *lot *of Roman/Greek name= > s, > > which apparently carry no special connotations. > >=20 > > Regards, Miryam > >=20 > > > > What's the British attitude? Doesn't anyone there give the name > > > >Homer or Virgil to their son? After all, one meets Englishmen named > > > >Terence, etc. > > > > > > To someone like me brought up in the UK, Homer and Virgil used as foren= > ames > > > sound distinctly American -- I didn't know they had a hillbilly ring. I= > n > > > England I don't think Terence is taken to allude to the Roman playwrigh= > t. > > > Nor Horace to the poet. I've never heard of anyone called Plautus or > > > Catullus. I'm sure I've heard or read of a dog called Virgil (or perhap= > s it > > > was Vergil) but I can't remember where. In Malta there was (is?) a fash= > ion > > > for Greek names, e.g. Sir Themistocles Zammit. > > > > > > Back to work! (I'm editing a book on a field of study I didn't even kno= > w > > > existed -- the constitutional law of revolutions. Cases cited come from > > > Restoration England, the secessionist South, UDI Rhodesia, Grenada, Fij= > i, > > > Queensland, etc., but so far nothing from ancient Rome, unless you coun= > t a > > > quotation from De Civ. Dei, IV, 4.) > > > > > > Simon Cauchi, Hamilton, New Zealand > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > > > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > > > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > > > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > -- > > *************************************************************************= > ** > > ...There was Delphinus Polyglott. He told us what had become of the > > eighty-three lost tragedies of Aeschylus; of the fifty-four orations of I= > saeus; > > of the three hundred and ninety-one speeches of Lysias; of the hundred an= > d > > eighty treatises of Theophrastus; of the eighth book of the conic section= > s of > > Apollonius; of Pindar=B4s hymns and dithyrambics; and of the five and for= > ty > > tragedies of Homer Junior. > > E.A. Poe > > *************************************************************************= > ** > >=20 > >=20 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > >=20 > > > ------------------------------ > > From: "=?iso-8859-1?q?A.P.H.=20Itel?=" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 12:19:48 +0100 (BST) > Subject: Thank you message from API > > Many thanks to all of you who replied to my question > about the other Virgil.I am sorry to be late to do > that. > > Virgilius (Virgile in French) as a name, is nowaday > quite unusual and meeting people who were given it is > somehow rare. I think it began to be used as a first > name in France during the Renaissance period. As for > latin names,I personally know two Virgile, one > Terence, three Martial (and even one Agricola !). I > think the first name Virgile is still quite common in > the former French colonies of Africa and in French > territory like Martinique, Guadeloupe and Guyana. > > The quotation of the Eglogues I, below my name, is > indeed a very nice one. > Recently I made an exhibition of some of my > calligraphy works here in Tokyo. Most of the works > were in English, some in Italian, and only two in > Latin : one was the poem of Quintus Horatius Flaccus, > « TU NE QUAESIERIS… » (Carminum Liber I, XI), and the > other the quotation of Eglogues I (79-83). > > I choose to write and enluminate this quotation for > the reason that, may be, it is a good example of what > is « AMOR » in Virgil. > In the Eneid, Anchises is welcoming is son in the > Elysium by these words « VICIT ITER DURUM PIETAS ». > And « Pietas » seems to be a consequence of Aeneas > travel down to visit his father. I admire very much > the roman « PIETAS », of course, like, for example, > the one that felt Aeneas when he met with Dido in the > Campi Lugentes. But PIETAS seems to me a quite > difficult word… > There is also the law of Juppiter, in the Georgics, > poem of the arduous « culture » of the earth : « LABOR > OMNIA VINCIT ». As I am living in Japan, I may have a > good idea of what means « LABOR » ! I would not say I > like this word too much… > And then,there is the « OMNIA VINCIT AMOR » of the > Eglogues. Of course, I am not Meliboeus, but I can’t > refrain from time to time, living so far from my > country, to repeat to myself the verses 64, 65, 66 : > « AT NOS HINC ALII SITIENTES IBIMUS AFROS, > PARS SCYTHIAM ET RAPIDUM CRETAE VENIEMUS OAXEN > ET PENITUS TOTO DIVISOS ORBE BRITANNOS ». > For the exhibition, I could not possibly have written > those three one ! The Reply of Tityrus was more > appropriate. > > > > N.B. : I have, of course, nothing against Japanese > people. > > > ===== > Andre-Paul Itel > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Hic tamen hanc mecum potera requiescere noctem > Fronde super viridi. Super nobis mitia poma, > Castaneae molles et pressi copia lactis; > Et jam summa procul villarum culmina fumant, > Majoresque cadunt altis de montibus umbrae. > ____________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk > or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie > > ------------------------------ > > From: M W Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 21:25:22 +0100 (BST) > Subject: Casali on Treason > > A few comments (too many!) on Casali's highly impressive article on > Aeneas' treason to which LHS referred us. > > The idea that Dido attributes 'facta impia' to Aeneas, not herself, seems > to have strong support in Italy - Paratore supports it in his edition and > names other scholars on both sides. In Britain, there seems to have been > a long-running consensus against this idea. Austin is distinctly scornful > about it and so was Pease in an earlier genertion. The self-blaming woman > seems (suspiciously!) more congenial to us than the woman who is > subversive enough to question the male hero's account of his glorious > past. > > I am not wholly convinced by Casali and would prefer an open translation > of IV 596 'Infelix Dido, nunc te facta impia tangunt! Tum decuit, cum > sceptra dabas' - 'Does it only now strike you, poor Dido, what evil has > been done? You should have thought of that when you were so ready to share > power.' She may be thinking of herself as well as of Aeneas and she may > not be thinking only of hostile stories about Aeneas. Perhaps even his > own account of himself no longer strikes her as so impressive. > > Casali is surely right to say that the Temple scene in Book I is meant to > remind us that works of art can be interpreted in different ways. But I > would take view of the parallel between 'facta impia tangunt' of IV 596 > and the more famous 'mentem mortalia tangunt' of I 462 rather different > from Casali's. The idea of 'impact on the mind', found in both scenes, is > surely not a matter of knowing that certain things have happened but of > being properly impressed and moved by their happening. Aeneas in Book I > does not so much note that the Tyrians know about Troy but that their > reaction is (he thinks) movingly humane. He likes the ideology which he > finds. This must be Dido's version of the ideology taught by Juno. So > Venus remarks (I, 671) that she thinks with utter dread of the turn that > this Juno-style welcome may take. > > Juno, I suppose, stands for the Greek system of autonomous cities, held > together by common religion and morality. The morality would include > faithful marriage and personal restraint. One of the safety-valves > of the Greek system was the foundation of colonies which would be outside > the influence of the parent city Dido and therefore, if its people are > tolerant, a sanctuary for all refugees of good character, regardless of > racial background. Dido is a colony-founder and is ready to accept other > refugees 'without discrimination'(574). This readiness reflects her > personal generosity of spirit. But there's an element of political > liberalism as well - Junoism at its best. For her part, Venus has always > wished to replace the system of autonomous cities with a system founded on > the special status of her favoured city, Troy/Rome. > > >From IV 321 one suspects that Dido, like some other liberals, can't quite > get the mass of her people to cooperate with her project. The Tyrians and > Trojans have not got on well. We know that the Tyrians always had > 'ferocia corda' towards foreigners (I 302) - Junoism taking a xenophobic > form among people who are not so enlightened. > > It is interesting to ask why Aeneas does not find, in the Temple of Juno, > tableaux which were unambiguously hostile to Troy or to himself - 'the > Trojans cower behind their walls; Aeneas takes a bribe to hand over the > keys'. It seems dramatically likely that the Greeks, thrown into chaos by > the death of Agamemnon and unable to organise pursuit of Aeneas, would > still spread disinformation. Sinon's memoirs must have spun a remarkable > yarn. Perhaps Dido can recognise dodgy propaganda when she sees or hears > it. No doubt she has been on the receiving end herself; Pygmalion would > have had a lot of explaining to do when she made off with the gold > reserves from Tyre and would have spread disinformation of his own. > > If 'the impact on the mind' in Book I led to ideological sympathy I > would think that 'the impact on the mind' in Book IV leads to ideological > hostility. In Book I Aeneas thinks that events are interpreted with > compassion, as he would wish; in Book IV Dido comes to interpret events > with exactly the hostility which he would wish to avoid. The race of > Laomedon, she has already perceived, is pervasively treacherous (542). > Why is that? Surely because it is 'Venusian' - it believes that its > special relationship with the gods gives it a special right to power, > beside which all other rights fade away. If you throw it out of one > place, it will flee to another, not just to found a Greek-style colony but > to renew, from another fortress, its efforts at world power. She is the > latest victim of this process, which will just go on and on unless her > avenging heir can put a stop to it. > > Perhaps she underestimates Aeneas' love for her but she is right to think > herself the victim of a conspiracy, organised in fact by Venus, the > huntress of Book I, who has long marked Dido as her target. This is a > very deep ideological and religious enmnity. > > Dido, seeing herself in a trap, may well understand that she never had to > accept Aeneas' account of 'the facts of Troy': there were other accounts > of the same facts, as Casali reminds us. Moreover, Aeneas' account was a > poem and poets are famous for not always telling the truth. But I think > that Casali would have been truer to his own insight about the different > interpretations of works of art had he made Dido reinterpret Aeneas' poem, > that is see a different meaning in it without challenging its 'facts'. > Dido now perceives the preservation of Troy and its religious icons as a > sinister threat to the whole civilised world. > > I certainly don't want to return to the 'British View' of Dido as > attributing facta impia only to herself. But I don't think we should lay > to much emphasis on 'the facts of Troy' so much as on 'the meaning of > Troy'. I think Dido sees herself as entangled in, contributing to and > destroyed by a plot to perpetuate the evil religion of the Trojans. - > Martin Hughes > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > End of VIRGIL Digest V1 #59 > *************************** > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano-digest" in the body (omitting the quotation > marks). Or go to http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
