Not only is [Markdown] dead, it's starting to smell really bad. (Apologies to
Pike.)
It's author appears to have little interest in developing the tool and
participating in the community which uses it.
I'd like to see the community cooperate toward a specification which addresses
the shortcomi
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> I'd like to see the community cooperate toward a specification which
> addresses the shortcomings and ambiguities of Markdown (even if it
> need be released under a new name).
I'll second that. Though it would be best if we could still use the
Mark
> I'll second that. Though it would be best if we could still use the
> Markdown name; a different one would just make one more confusing
> text-markup specification for people to ignore. If we could call it
> Markdown2 or something similar, it would be obvious that it expands on,
> and supersedes,
On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 2:27 PM, Yuri Takhteyev wrote:
>> I'll second that. Though it would be best if we could still use the
>> Markdown name; a different one would just make one more confusing
>> text-markup specification for people to ignore. If we could call it
>> Markdown2 or something similar
In article <20100305103250714488.32875...@yahoo.co.uk>,
Albert Skye wrote:
>Not only is [Markdown] dead, it's starting to smell really bad. (Apologies to
>Pike.)
There are some hilarious edge/pathological cases which Markdown.pl doesn't
get
right, but for the most part it works and if
+++ Yuri Takhteyev [Mar 05 10 14:27 ]:
> > I'll second that. Though it would be best if we could still use the
> > Markdown name; a different one would just make one more confusing
> > text-markup specification for people to ignore. If we could call it
> > Markdown2 or something similar, it would b
In article <20100305211753.ga27...@protagoras.phil.berkeley.edu>,
John MacFarlane wrote:
>Currently big players like reddit and github
>use forms of markdown that depart significantly from John Gruber's
>official specification;
Okay, I'm curious. Since I'm the writer of the "forms of mark
When I first started to write MultiMarkdown, I hoped it would become
obsolete when the official markdown spec included footnotes and
possibly tables. Then I added a few other features, and it also
became clear that Markdown wasn't going to evolve any further in an
official capacity.
Which is not
+++ david parsons [Mar 05 10 22:10 ]:
> In article <20100305211753.ga27...@protagoras.phil.berkeley.edu>,
> John MacFarlane wrote:
> >Currently big players like reddit and github
> >use forms of markdown that depart significantly from John Gruber's
> >official specification;
>
> Okay, I'm c
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> Yuri provided some good reading, but I thought it important to point
> out a specific comment by J.G. regarding the name of such a project:
>
> http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/markdown-discuss/2008-March/001189.html
That's only a problem if he "d
+++ John MacFarlane [Mar 05 10 18:05 ]:
> +++ david parsons [Mar 05 10 22:10 ]:
> > In article <20100305211753.ga27...@protagoras.phil.berkeley.edu>,
> > John MacFarlane wrote:
> > >Currently big players like reddit and github
> > >use forms of markdown that depart significantly from John Gruber'
In article <20100306020548.gb...@protagoras.phil.berkeley.edu>,
John MacFarlane wrote:
>`a`
>
>should render as
>
>a
>
>but discount (at least the version on babelmark) renders it as
The version on Babelmark might be a little out of date; the
1.6 series doesn't leave that tick hanging
On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 5:10 PM, david parsons wrote:
> In article <20100305211753.ga27...@protagoras.phil.berkeley.edu>,
> John MacFarlane wrote:
>>Currently big players like reddit and github
>>use forms of markdown that depart significantly from John Gruber's
>>official specification;
>
>
> I'd like to see the community cooperate toward a specification which
> addresses the shortcomings and ambiguities of Markdown (even if it
> need be released under a new name).
Not a spec for Markdown itself, but for a superset of Markdown:
http://kramdown.rubyforge.org/syntax.html
I tried to a
+++ david parsons [Mar 06 10 04:33 ]:
> In article <20100306020548.gb...@protagoras.phil.berkeley.edu>,
> John MacFarlane wrote:
>
> >`a`
> >
> >should render as
> >
> >a
> >
> >but discount (at least the version on babelmark) renders it as
>
> The version on Babelmark might be a little o
In article <20100306064636.ga17...@protagoras.phil.berkeley.edu>,
John MacFarlane wrote:
>./markdown -V
>markdown: discount 1.6.2
>./markdown
>`hi`
>`hi`
>
>But you should get:
>
>hi
>
>--at least according to the reference implementation (and most
>others). Backslashes don't escape `s inside
* david parsons [2010-03-06 05:25]:
> In article <20100306020548.gb...@protagoras.phil.berkeley.edu>,
> John MacFarlane wrote:
> >`` a```a ``
> >
> >should render as
> >
> >a```a
>
> Now that's a defect all right. It looks like the reference
> matches any run of ticks, not just the one or two th
* Fletcher T. Penney [2010-03-06 00:00]:
> The point is that each of these variant forms of Markdown
> evolved to scratch someone's particular itch.
As indeed did Markdown himself. Once it scratched John’s own
itch well enough, he lost the compulsion to improve it. Which
I can relate to very well
+++ david parsons [Mar 06 10 07:07 ]:
> In article <20100306064636.ga17...@protagoras.phil.berkeley.edu>,
> John MacFarlane wrote:
>
> >./markdown -V
> >markdown: discount 1.6.2
> >./markdown
> >`hi`
> >`hi`
> >
> >But you should get:
> >
> >hi
> >
> >--at least according to the reference impl
ple. That could change if I were to return to web
development, but right now I'm working on other things to pay the bills. I
think John is in a similar situation.
Is there anyone interested in sponsoring Markdown development? I think you
first need a solution to this problem if you w
On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 2:34 PM, Michel Fortin wrote:
> Is there anyone interested in sponsoring Markdown development? I think you
> first need a solution to this problem if you want to have a lead designer.
Yikes, this sounds like an NGO (Mozilla Foundation, etc.) and overhead
(to
> Is there a way Gruber could "anoint" someone ...
Yikes, this sounds ... ;}
I think the community can just cooperate and develop a common tool.
It need not be called "Markdown" nor strictly supeset Markdown. It simply needs
to be useful to the community. It needs no *one* to control it but wit
In article <20100316235613572049.1a73e...@yahoo.co.uk>,
Albert Skye wrote:
>> Is there a way Gruber could "anoint" someone ...
>
>Yikes, this sounds ... ;}
>
>I think the community can just cooperate and develop a common tool.
There are markdown implementations in a dozen languages. I am
2010/3/17 david parsons :
>
> There are markdown implementations in a dozen languages. I am
> unsure about how a common tool can be made here.
>
What I would really like to see is a standard test suite, with a given
input and the expected output, which we can test against the different
imple
Getting agreement on the corner tests should be easy. Most of the time the
corner test is odd enough that it never came up in a production environment,
and so deciding one way or another is less likely to break something.
Having an MD compliance test may be *the* way to go.
MD has forked. 20 tim
On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 02:56, Albert Skye wrote:
>> Is there a way Gruber could "anoint" someone ...
>
> Yikes, this sounds ... ;}
A lot of this thread sounds :}
It's a solution looking for a problem. Or at least a poor solution to
an undefined problem.
Though looking back I see several others
On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 8:37 PM, Arno Hautala wrote:
>
>
> Me? I'm happy with PHPMDExtra. And really that's just for the
> footnotes and definition lists. Plenty of other forks support both.
> The headache is that so many support one convention but not another.
> It also emphasizes the point th
> undocumented - search the list archives for clues). Personally, I think this
> is where implementations should look to move next - not expanding the
> syntax, but providing an API so that it's users can in their own code to
> meet the specific needs of their specific projects.
And those two are
It's nowhere written that the Markdown user won't have to pre-process
or post-process to scratch his particular itch.
Michel has already[1] made the extensions and done the fixes that a
"text-to-HTML conversion tool for web writers" reasonably needs at its
core. (Prefer Ruby? kramdown's for you[
lou said:
> Markdown's dead? Absurd. Markdown's huge,
>and in the form of PHP Markdown Extra is basically done.
> Done != dead, done == problem solved.
_your_ problem not necessarily included. batteries sold separately.
-bowerbird
___
Mark
* Lou Quillio [2010-03-20 00:55]:
> Markdown's dead? Absurd.
Obviously. That’s why no one said that.
Markdown *development* is dead.
(Straw men are easy to clobber.)
> Markdown's huge, and in the form of PHP Markdown Extra is
> basically done. Done != dead, done == problem
On Mar 20, 2010, at 4:02 PM, Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote:
> What it’s not missing is big constructs. (I believe tables and
> definition lists can only be done badly, and so should not be
> done at all.)
Well, for some definition of “badly,” I suppose. I'm pretty happy with MMD
definition lists (wi
G. K. Chesterton commented, "If something is worth doing, it's worth doing
badly"
I like MMD's table syntax. Not perfect. Still a pain to construct,
especially if you want to keep the notion of having to look reasonable as
plain text. But it *really* beats
.
My wishlist:
* Easy way to
On 20/03/10 04:02 PM, Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote:
* Lou Quillio [2010-03-20 00:55]:
Markdown's dead? Absurd.
Obviously. That’s why no one said that.
Markdown *development* is dead.
(Straw men are easy to clobber.)
Markdown's huge, and in the form of PHP Markdow
* David E. Wheeler [2010-03-20 23:05]:
> I'm pretty happy with MMD definition lists (with s/:/~/g)
I tried to like them.
> and with psql-style tables (mostly implemented in
> Markdent::Dialect::Theory. I find them both esthetically
> pleasing.
They look OK but are a pain to edit. (I haven’t see
e lack of input from him is what is causing the perceived
fragmentation in Markdown implementations. All I meant to say is that
Gruber seems to have lost interest in Markdown development and we just
need to move beyond needing his blessing.
Except that several of them have copied Markdown
>
> Position Team P GD PTS
> 1 Man Utd 31 46 67
> 2 Arsenal 31 40 67
> 3 Chelsea 29 42 64
> 4 Tottenham 30 26 55
> 5 Liverpo
> What it does need is one central voice.
That's one way to do it, and as unlikely as it may seem, cooperation is another
way. In that case, a will to cooperate is necessary.
In any case, it seems useful to at least clean up and disambiguate a common
Markdown core. I think Markdown would be mor
On Mar 21, 2010, at 6:13 AM, Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote:
> They look OK but are a pain to edit. (I haven’t seen a table
> syntax that I find easier to edit than raw HTML. Well, the fact
> that Markdown won’t touch the contents makes them still a pain.)
>
> I think this editing|reading tension is f
On Mar 21, 2010, at 11:03 AM, Seumas Mac Uilleachan wrote:
> It depends on what you are trying to do. If you want a simple multi-column
> list of corresponding text such as:
>
> Position Team P GD PTS
> 1 Man Utd 31 46 67
> 2
On 21/03/10 08:28 PM, David E. Wheeler wrote:
On Mar 21, 2010, at 11:03 AM, Seumas Mac Uilleachan wrote:
It depends on what you are trying to do. If you want a simple multi-column list
of corresponding text such as:
Position Team P GD PTS
1 Man
>> Markdown's dead? Absurd.
>
> Obviously. That’s why no one said that.
>
> Markdown *development* is dead.
>
> (Straw men are easy to clobber.)
And cherries are easy to pick. My point is that the canonical
ambitions that some have for Markdown aren't share
>>> It depends on what you are trying to do. If you want a simple
>>> multi-column list of corresponding text such as:
>>>
>>> Position Team P GD PTS
>>> 1 Man Utd 31 46 67
>>> 2 Arsenal 31 40 67
>>> 3
lou said:
>And, again, it's always been part of the bargain that
>you must wrap the transformer if you need special shit
where some values of "special shit" are spectacularly ordinary...
not available in stores. your mileage might vary. have a nice day.
-bowerbird
p.s. see what g
albert said:
>http://nickgravgaard.com/elastictabstops/
for the win! (i'd been wondering when someone would
mention that again; i looked and couldn't find the u.r.l.)
any further dialogs about tables should be shortcircuited
with this link. there's simply nothing to discuss any more.
-bo
On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 12:44 PM, wrote:
> albert said:
> > http://nickgravgaard.com/elastictabstops/
>
> for the win! (i'd been wondering when someone would
> mention that again; i looked and couldn't find the u.r.l.)
>
> any further dialogs about tables should be shortcircuited
> with this l
On 23/03/10 02:11 AM, Albert Skye wrote:
It depends on what you are trying to do. If you want a simple
multi-column list of corresponding text such as:
Position Team P GD PTS
1 Man Utd 31 46 67
2 Arsenal 31
On Mar 23, 2010, at 8:29 PM, Seumas Mac Uilleachan wrote:
> Elastic tabstops would certainly make my pseudo-table much cleaner. Would
> make creating such a table a breeze without requiring special markup. Is this
> idea actually catching on or is it like Sony Beta - a better solution that no
>
sherwood said:
>I don't understand.
what's to understand? :+)
>Are you saying that MD should recognize elastic tab stops
>in a file and convert that to a html table?
yes, that's what i'm saying, or at least part of it.
>This is certainly a possible route, but given
In article <1ffdc.6466484d.38dba...@aol.com>,
wrote:
>
>--===1294852797==
>Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
> boundary="part1_1ffdc.6466484d.38dbaac4_boundary"
>
>
>--part1_1ffdc.6466484d.38dbaac4_boundary
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>Content-Transfer-Encod
2010/3/24 :
> but, you know, all it takes is for one brave leader to _lead_,
> and a number of non-cowardly followers to _follow_, and
> -- before you know it -- a new capability is taken for granted.
Elastic tab stops are not a new concept. Some people tried to lead,
nobody followed.
>> It al
Given the paucity of ETS editors, viewers, enabled browsers however, I'm
afraid that I will insist on keeping my horse, at least until there is more
than two roads in town. My horse will eat hay. And who knows where the
next gas station is.
The bowerbird is half right. Elastic tab stops are wo
On 24/03/10 01:49 PM, bowerb...@aol.com wrote:
sherwood said:
> I don't understand.
what's to understand? :+)
> Are you saying that MD should recognize elastic tab stops
> in a file and convert that to a html table?
yes, that's what i'm saying, or at least part of it.
> Thi
On 24/03/10 02:20 PM, Sherwood Botsford wrote:
Given the paucity of ETS editors, viewers, enabled browsers however,
I'm afraid that I will insist on keeping my horse, at least until
there is more than two roads in town. My horse will eat hay. And who
knows where the next gas station is.
Th
sherwood said:
>The bowerbird is half right.
>Elastic tab stops are worthy of implementing.
>But to keep the transition cost minimal
>the older way has to be supported also.
well, no, actually, i'm _completely_ right...
since i never said to jettison the older way. :+)
* Seumas Mac Uilleachan [2010-03-24 01:30]:
> Elastic tabstops would certainly make my pseudo-table much
> cleaner. Would make creating such a table a breeze without
> requiring special markup. Is this idea actually catching on
Yeah, elastic tabstops solve this problem in a fundamental way.
The p
On 25/03/10 10:08 AM, Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote:
* Seumas Mac Uilleachan [2010-03-24 01:30]:
Elastic tabstops would certainly make my pseudo-table much
cleaner. Would make creating such a table a breeze without
requiring special markup. Is this idea actually catching on
Yeah, elastic
> See this: http://github.github.com/github-flavored-markdown/
>
> I think their assumptions about newlines is way off.
I don't know about their assumptions but I do know that I prefer that behaviour
and it was one of the first departures I made from Markdown syntax.
When I insert a newline in
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