Thanks, but I do use it already...
I just don't want to support IE6 any more, even if I can test IE4-IE10
con the same machine ;-)
On 10/20/08, MX3Design <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> @Ivan
>
> You may find this useful:
> http://www.my-debugbar.com/wiki/IETester/HomePage
>
> It's a really h
@Ivan
You may find this useful:
http://www.my-debugbar.com/wiki/IETester/HomePage
It's a really helpful app, renders all versions of IE and saves
checking on different pc's.
I usually get out of IE6 support by explaining to customers that there
is extra work involved in supporting it. Extra work = extra $$$. 95%
don't go for it :)
On Oct 18, 1:24 am, keif <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So you take *global* statistics and apply it to your site? I bet you waste a
> lot
"So you take *global* statistics and apply it to your site?"
Yes, because you have no idea when your *metric evaluation* will fail.
Example: A site gets featured on the news, suddenly your client's site
gets an unprecedented amount of traffic, what kind of traffic? Global,
mainstream traffic. You
A product, not a service.
On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 5:08 AM, MX3Design <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I forgot an important point: In my opinion the mentality in this
> thread is all wrong. We're providing a service, we should be prepared
> and happy to extend that service to as many users as possi
So you take *global* statistics and apply it to your site? I bet you waste a
lot of time testing browsers that don't show up.
Again I say, I use METRICS to determine what browsers to support. I don't
*NOT* support IE6 - I only support it if the evidence says I should. If you
support it and you h
"because someone could show up" = 25% of all users according to your
link
who's the fool?
Following that same logic, you should support this list:
http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=0&qpmr=15&qpdt=1&qpct=3&qpcal=1&qptimeframe=Q&qpsp=38
Have fun with that, I'll stick to my targeted supported browser list that
depends on the clients needs and the determination that metri
I forgot an important point: In my opinion the mentality in this
thread is all wrong. We're providing a service, we should be prepared
and happy to extend that service to as many users as possible.
There's no point burying your head in the sand. The fact is that
between 20 - 30% of internet users still use IE6. Yes. it varies
according to target market profiles but if you do some basic research
you'll find the average figure above to be correct.
If you're in business and trying to sell a pr
Like's been said - are you looking at these sites as a whole, or as
individuals? By topic/keyword/demographic? I've got access to a number of
clients in different businesses, and they vary widely.
That's not a big margin if people aren't aware of something better - people
just assume "I know, so
> I have server access to a couple of thousand web sites, I haven't
> calculated the stats precisely but the percentage must be around 20%
> ...
Yes, but you are merging data from 1000+ different sites... lets say
there are certain sites, that will definitely NOT be visited by IE6
users... woul
On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 3:30 PM, MX3Design <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> People don't like change, they feel comfortable with the interface
> they're used to. If you owned a 10 year old car would you be happy if
> suddenly no parts were manufactured for it just because a new model
> was released?
I have server access to a couple of thousand web sites, I haven't
calculated the stats precisely but the percentage must be around 20%
on average of users visiting those sites still use IE6. That's simply
too big a margin to ignore. It's a nuisance and in an ideal world it
would be nice not to hav
Thats another point to I hadnt really considered I must say...
You have the whole world, and its 25% IE6 users but what you
really need is the % of people that will *actually* visit that type of
site... WHAT are the odds!!! ;-)
This is almost the same as keif's point on flash upgrade.. :-P
@MX3Design You *are* correct that you can't *tell* your clients what to do.
However, the figure is always different.
Some clients don't see a significant number of IE6 users to really justify
support or spending time accounting for the myriad of issues (PNG filtering,
rendering, etc. etc.)
It'
Thats correct mx3design...
Not that you can just bail out of it, and certainly you would need
your client's aproval to place a banner or notice on their sites in
orther promote upgrade... there are tons of ways to convince your
client to join this movement as well, to teach them, to educate them
I guess the decision to provide IE6 support depends upon whether
you're designing commercially or not. I can't turn around to my
clients and tell them that 25% of visitors potentially won't see their
site because I no longer support IE6. I do add targeted notes to sites
though encouraging upgrades
My last move against IE : I display the website in black and white,
thank's to IE's gray filter (how ironic) and say if you want to view
that website with colors, go get another browser, with a link to
firefox. I think the "best viewed" takes its whole meaning :)
Then about IE7 - IE6, I generally
Then you have firefox, flock, safari? opera... etc...
To those that love win2k and hate winXP, they have a whole myriad of
Linuxes that will work much better [that was a just a joke, hehehe,
nevermind it! ;-)]
As you're advising people to stop supporting IE6, be aware that it
isn't even possible for some people to upgrade to IE7 without also
upgrading their hardware/operating system. Older operating systems
that still work just fine, don't support IE7 (WIN2K for example)
Sure there is always Firefox, b
@Keif:
> But we *WILL* tell flash users they need to upgrade - and then wonder why
> 95% of Flash users are all using the most recent version.
EXACTLY the SAME
Since I dont want to be just plain rude, I will certainly give my
portion of help to this. Provide a cute banner, info, reasons,
and that pushup will certainly go into my site as well ;-)
Is anyone currently porting this to mootools?
On Oct 16, 3:24 pm, nutron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> http://www.pushuptheweb.com/
>
> On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 2:45 PM, Iván N Paz <
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
>
> > @Tom:
> > GOOD, thats the way to go!!! [<-- oh man,,,
http://www.pushuptheweb.com/
On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 2:45 PM, Iván N Paz <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> @Tom:
> GOOD, thats the way to go!!! [<-- oh man,,, you really hate those
> extra exclamations!, sorry about that]
>
> @aaron:
> My friend, I live in such country (Cuba,
I've had this argument MANY MANY times.
We say we can't upgrade IE6 because of this 20-30% of people who can't
won't/don't know.
But we *WILL* tell flash users they need to upgrade - and then wonder why
95% of Flash users are all using the most recent version.
We don't want to tell people "bes
@Tom:
GOOD, thats the way to go!!! [<-- oh man,,, you really hate those
extra exclamations!, sorry about that]
@aaron:
My friend, I live in such country (Cuba, I think I'm the only cuban
here, which is pretty cool btw)... a very under-developed country...
trust me... internet explorer 6 is gone
Ivan, there are a LOT of reasons that IE6 is in use and why we, web
developers can't do much about it. For starters, there are a lot of old
computers out there, esp in developing countries. Go spend some time in S.E.
Asia and walk into an internet cafe. Who's going to up grade that browser?
There
I stopped supporting ie6 in a few of my projects.
It's easy to tell one client at a time to upgrade their browsers, but
it's impossible to tell the whole world ;)
On Oct 16, 2008, at 3:40 PM, Guillermo Rauch wrote:
By w3c you -incorrectly- mean w3schools ?
On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 5:05 PM,
By w3c you -incorrectly- mean w3schools ?
On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 5:05 PM, MX3 Design <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> A nice thought Ivan but...
> September 2008 IE6 browser stats:
>
> w3c = 22.3%
> thecounter.com = 36%
>
> it's still being used a lot.
>
--
Guillermo Rauch
http://devthought.com
Yes... its being used BECAUSE, we still support it... because we do
not join the cause to stop its usage what Im doing here is making
a "call to arms", join the fight, and FORCE people to upgrade... when
we FORCE the final user to upgrade, they will force their admins to
let them do it... we ca
@Rajeev - I do mean the IE6 suck ass need for on the fly PNG replacement.
I haven't checked out CNET's but mine is based off of Tobius's from the old
forum.
It does anything with a src$=.png (so images and inputs), inline CSS,
external CSS (except I recently discovered if you do an external CSS
A nice thought Ivan but...
September 2008 IE6 browser stats:
w3c = 22.3%
thecounter.com = 36%
it's still being used a lot.
2008/10/16 Iván N Paz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> IE6 MUST DIE...
>
> Really guys... IE6 support has to DIE right now... personally I'm
> considering not implementing a singl
IE6 MUST DIE...
Really guys... IE6 support has to DIE right now... personally I'm
considering not implementing a single hack to support it any
longer
We, the developers and designers, have to end that NOW.
torial.com CNET Clientside:
clientside.cnet.com
View this message in context: Re: What's going on in MooTools...
Sent from the MooTools Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Exactly my thoughts... it's not like all the MooTools 1.11 copies self-
destructed overnight when 1.2 was released!...
Tom: If your 5 digits losses were caused by porting your script to
1.2... first, let me tell you that your employees are either slacking
or greatly overpaid... I ported a BUNCH o
>
> Honestly, I think the CodeIgniter quote sinches it - the MooTools dev
> team's priorities may not be yours. And they shouldn't be. You know
> how long I've been bugging to get an alphaPNG fix added to MooTools?
> They said no. Repeatedly. And I listened. I moved on. Sure, I cried
> myself to b
Hey Tomb,
Your message was idiotic, in bad taste, has bad timing, and absolutely
useless (also you forgot to insert a lot of smileys).
This attempt at legal threats is seriously pathetic, especially coming
from a businessman.
Moreover, you are still free to continue using Mootools 1.11 or
whate
On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 10:53 PM, keif <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I'm a fucking grown up, shit doesn't always go my way, and I can make
> it work for me, their decisions be damned. So I write my own classes
> and effects. I write my own code. I make stuff that works in mootools
> and jquery. (a
On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 10:10 PM, MX3Design <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> in backward compatibility you threw the principles of IoC
IoC ... neither of the two expansions I know of fits this context ...
Inversion of Control ? design pattern applied to SCM ... GoF needs to
be notified ;)
Internation
Let me say I'm a huge fan of mootools, and I see "elitism" being
thrown around a lot.
The problem is - jQuery is for designers. They tout that. They talk
about how easy it is to learn, and how friendly the community is.
MooTools never once made this claim. They set expectations very high -
we're
MX3Designs comments WERE constructive and I dare say a MAJORITY of the
Mootools community would echo his sentiments.
The way this conversation has been handled is enough for me to stop
using Mootools I'm embarrassed to have my work associated with this
kind of mentality.
On Oct 3, 10:09 am, "Ivá
@tombmedia - I picked mootools as our javascript framework for the
company I work for because it is production level. I was always
concerned about the level of support because there was no enterprise
package. However, I saw the ability of the community and the
robustness of the product and made th
I have seen none of this elitism. Every response to these accusations
is responded to the same way, "We are focusing on developing the
framework and nothing else, we understand if that is not what you are
looking for, and we encourage to work with another if that is the
case."
As far as communit
I don't know where you are located mx3design, but if you are in the
states I'd like to see if there is some sort of legal action we can
take towards mootools for fraudulently advertising mootools as a
product when it is clearly a hobby for a select few individuals. I am
a businessman and can prove
Oh, and here's the link: http://www.opensource.org/licenses/mit-license.php
--
Guillermo Rauch
http://devthought.com
THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR
IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY,
FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE
AUTHORS OR COPYRIGHT HOLDERS BE LIABLE FOR ANY CLAIM, DAMAGES OR OTHER
LIAB
Its really sad that some guys really need a community behind some
tool/framework in orther to use it... really sad... (though I still
understand part of it)
For me.. I dont give a heck if the people around here are snob (not
that I have found anyone but the whiners themself)...
Mootools Its a gr
I'd just like to say that any community has its fair share of people who
cannot conduct themselves in a civil manner. Rather than get too bent out of
shape when this stuff happens, I suggest that you just move on. I don't like
to see any member of our community leave and use another framework bec
On Oct 4, 5:00 pm, AwesomeSauce <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> MX3Designs comments WERE constructive and I dare say a MAJORITY of the
> Mootools community would echo his sentiments.
Yes, he had some good points but formulating them as claims isn't
really helpful. For my taste this style lacks of ap
I guess they are 'arrogant' too.
I just wanted to throw this in the mix as I find it very applicable.
The following quote is from Derek Jones, the main developer of
CodeIgniter, regarding criticism of CI. Very similar to a lot of what
is going on with mootools
--- start quote ---
The problem here is that some individua
Agreed. There is a compatibility layer. It's about 95% effective if you only
use the documented features in the library. The few breaking changes that
aren't backwards compatibility (I'm not even 100% sure there are any) are
usually rather low-level stuff that most people don't use.
As for the thr
Just wanted to throw in the link for backwards compatibility layer that has
been floating around since 1.2:
http://digitarald.de/journal/38150523/mootools-1-1-to-1-2-compatibility-layer/
Grow up.
great!!! byeee!! ;-)
I will stop posting but I'm not picking a fight for no reason: The
Mootools project has wasted a lot of my businesses time, hundreds of
hours of development. Why? You moved the goal posts, by not factoring
in backward compatibility you threw the principles of IoC out of the
window. Defining MT as
this is useless... please tom, refrain yourself with dealing with such
comments go on, keep coding and nevermind this...
Reinhard, Im no mootools developer, im just a regular mooUser
arrogant??/ Why? Because Im not whining like you guys do??? stop it...
ask smth, you will get a response..
1. What is the point in developing a product that few people use?
Again... for our own personal use
2. Why are few people using it?
Because it doesn't fit their needs.
We develop MooTools for ourselves... if others find it useful,
awesome, we encourage them to use it as well. Why is it
@Reinhard
If you look through the old forums you'll find I posted solutions and
code snippets, admittedly not much but you'll find some. You'll find
that if people are helped they are far more likely in turn to help,
that's human nature. As an example of how to care for, and how to
create a real c
give it up reinhard... its worthless... ;-) dont waste your time...
guys, remember, this list is not the right place for this, redirect
all your complaints to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Oct 3, 11:33 am, MX3Design <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ..and if they want a framework which doesn't alter beyond recognition
> between versions... LISTEN
>
> How many design businesses do you seriously think will waste time
> rewriting hundreds of scripts with each version release? The MT team
..and if they want a framework which doesn't alter beyond recognition
between versions... LISTEN
How many design businesses do you seriously think will waste time
rewriting hundreds of scripts with each version release? The MT team
need to work in the real world instead of providing a totally
rid
I'm in accord with MX3Design's statements.
The elitism prevalent among some of the developers is dragging down my
opinion of Mootools. Mootools like all open source projects is only
as strong as its user base. By helping to educate your users you
potentially gain more developers in the future,
On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 4:30 AM, MX3Design <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> The trouble is Tom all you're really achieving now is development for
> yourselves. Users and developers have been alienated, information is
Will this ever stop? :-P
The trouble is Tom all you're really achieving now is development for
yourselves. Users and developers have been alienated, information is
difficult to find and help is not forthcoming. If you're happy writing
code for yourself that's fine but until you start viewing your users
with a degree of re
Hi Tom,
> As the other speakers / developers at Fronteers and i chatted about,
> we are all on the same team! We love the other frameworks, and the
> contributions they make to the JavaScript community, and we want all
> of you to also. We are not competing with any of them. If you think
On Sep 17, 2:32 pm, "Guillermo Rauch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think there's room for improvement in Mooforum before it's linked in the
> frontpage. I would like to contribute to the project, why not create a
> mailing list, like mooforum-dev?
that would be great, but I would suggest as it'
Yeah, the forum being completely down was never intentional.
The goal was just to make it readonly and move new discussion over to
the groups.
We'd been having some server issues which is what prompted the need to
move off our box for the most part.
—Thomas Aylott / subtleGradient
On Sep
I don't think there was much issue with the move to google groups. I
agree that they work good. I think the main issue was the removal of
the forum completely and feeling a loss of all that information. Now
that its back at least in a read-only manner still provides useful
information and solution
I love the new site, just for the record.
On Sep 17, 7:02 am, Tom Occhino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> daKmoR, that's exactly what I was talking about adding... ;)
>
> As Guillermo said, maybe it could use a few improvements... like a
> smaller header with less (or no) pictures of cows in it? :
daKmoR, that's exactly what I was talking about adding... ;)
As Guillermo said, maybe it could use a few improvements... like a
smaller header with less (or no) pictures of cows in it? :P hehe
On Sep 17, 2008, at 2:32 PM, Guillermo Rauch wrote:
I think there's room for improvement in Moofor
I think there's room for improvement in Mooforum before it's linked in the
frontpage. I would like to contribute to the project, why not create a
mailing list, like mooforum-dev?
On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 9:29 AM, daKmoR <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> yeah that's great... but I thought something mo
yeah that's great... but I thought something more like a link on the
front page...
Community
* MooTools Users Group
* IRC Channel
* unofficial mooforum
it's my wish... just let me dream... :)
dakMoR, I'll see what I can do to get you a link on the frontpage this
week (along with a link to Aaron's book...) Hopefully that will drive
a bit more traffic your way. :)
On Sep 17, 2008, at 1:49 PM, Thomas Aylott wrote:
http://forum.mootools.net/
links to:
Attention: The forum is n
http://forum.mootools.net/
links to:
Attention: The forum is now read-only. Please see the MooTools
Development Wiki for current support options.
http://github.com/mootools/mootools-core/wikis/support
What about Forums?
There are no official MooTools forums.
There are a number of unoffi
These are exactly the post we want to see on a regular basis on the
blog... (when it's live again.. :))
Just to stay informed what's going and to see the progress that's
being made.
thx for the mooforum.net part, we will come back to it if needed.
Also if anyone has any suggestions for mooforum.n
I want to thank all of the dev team for what they do and all of the
free work hours they put in. I use mootools in just about all of my
projects and my clients are stunned at what it can do. It is truly a
professional product. While I do miss the official forum, mainly
because everything was in
PS: sorry i can't count. :)
On Sep 17, 2008, at 2:16 AM, Tom Occhino wrote:
a ton of crap...
I'm writing this post to the mailing list to inform the MooTools
community about what the developers have been doing these days, and
what is to come for the framework. We are all getting tired of
answering the same questions over and over again, so I hope this
clears some things up and we
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