On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Use hydrogen. One solar panel (which will last forever unless you drop
something on it) can split H2O into H and O.
Solar panels do not last forever. In fact, they degrade rather quickly due
to the radiation damage to the semiconductor (older thin
Hi Guys
I must say I'm enjoying all of these fascinating off topic followups
but isn't about time to move this discussion to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ?
--
Thanks,
Rafi
--
Rafi Sadowsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Network Operations Center | VoiceMail:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I am a little rusty on this one, but I seem to remember that AC travels
only on the outside skin of the wire but DC uses all the wire.
Skin effect is only significant at high frequencies (lots of megahertz
and up). At 60hz it can be ignored.
--Huh ? Where in the physics of ohms law is Hz a factor ? Having lived off
--the grid, where systems are often at max 48v, yes the wires have to be
--several 0's of gage to carry the lagre amperages. Much the same in A/B DC legs in
--a colo. Up the volts and the amps go down to produce the same
I wasn't aware that there are high voltage DC long-haul lines that then
are converted to AC for local distribution.
Another use for HVDC is to isolate transmission networks.
Hydro Quebec uses Back-to-Back High Voltage DC conversion equipment at its
interconnection points with other
On Saturday 16 August 2003 04:54 pm, Having folded space, the Third Stage
Guild Navigator said:
Thus spake Petri Helenius [EMAIL PROTECTED]
subsidize) local power generation via renewable energy sources
(e.g.
solar, wind, hydro) it would go a long way towards solving this
problem.
Use hydrogen. One solar panel (which will last forever unless you drop
something on it) can split H2O into H and O. Store the H for windless days
or at night. Feed this to a turbine for electricity and recover heat for hot
water, store it in a heat sink, ect. Or feed the H into a fuel
On Sunday 17 August 2003 11:55 am, Having folded space, the Third Stage
Guild Navigator said:
Use hydrogen. One solar panel (which will last forever unless you drop
something on it) can split H2O into H and O. Store the H for windless
days or at night. Feed this to a turbine for
And solar nor wind are good for base energy production so we´re stuck
with other methods unless you want to move IP packets only when it´s
windy.
Or you store excess power generated on windy/sunny days for later
distribution on calm/rainy days:
On zondag, aug 17, 2003, at 20:57 Europe/Amsterdam,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The calculations I have seen of hydrogen produced vs watts in indicate
solar could supply enough hydrogen to more than satisfy
the requirements of a residential user.
Sure, a regular house has enough surface area to
On Sunday 17 August 2003 03:11 pm, Having folded space, the Third Stage
Guild Navigator said:
On zondag, aug 17, 2003, at 20:57 Europe/Amsterdam,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Sure, a regular house has enough surface area to generate this
electricity, but not appartment buildings or businesses.
On zaterdag, aug 16, 2003, at 05:38 Europe/Amsterdam, Eric Germann
wrote:
And the nukes tripping off was probably more an artifact
of frequency instability on the grid than a problem with the nukes
themselves.
Maybe a stupid question...
But what if the huge distribution systems used DC and the
Once upon a time, Iljitsch van Beijnum [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
Maybe a stupid question...
But what if the huge distribution systems used DC and the whole thing
was only converted to AC close to the users in small installations?
This would get rid of the frequency problems.
Basic physics.
But what if the huge distribution systems used DC
the UK - France interconnect is DC
http://www.nationalgrid.com/uk/activities/other/mn_interconnectors_france.html
though a relatively short distance it does provide isolation
brandon
On zaterdag, aug 16, 2003, at 10:48 Europe/Amsterdam, Chris Adams wrote:
But what if the huge distribution systems used DC and the whole thing
was only converted to AC close to the users in small installations?
This would get rid of the frequency problems.
Basic physics. To run DC at the power
My guess is when it shakes out, the failure will be traced to a rather
large
unit or interconnect tripping offline.
It will be traced back to a huge branch from a huge tree that fell and took
down a couple of transmission lines which then melted the road in a fairly
expensive neighborhood in
Let me add yet another $0.02 worth, weighing in on the side
defending the electric power industry. Let's take a very high
level economic point of view. Should oodles of money be spent
improving the power generation and transmission grid? Suppose
that the current system were judged likely to
Speaking on Deep Background, the Press Secretary whispered:
Maybe a stupid question...
But what if the huge distribution systems used DC and the whole thing
was only converted to AC close to the users in small installations?
This would get rid of the frequency problems.
True, and
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Scott A Crosby writes:
I don't know, but at least reading this IEEE Spectrum article:
http://www.ece.umr.edu/courses/f02/ee207/spectrum/Grid/ implies that
long distance transmission is full of strange and nonlinear effects
such as 'reactive power', voltage support,
On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Chris Adams wrote:
Basic physics. To run DC at the power levels required, the wire would
have to be over 100 feet in diameter IIRC. Look up the Edison vs. Tesla
power arguments for all kinds of information on AC vs. DC.
Edison and Tesla's arguments took place long
Speaking on Deep Background, the Press Secretary whispered:
AC still makes sense for distribution, but HV DC transmission lines are
becoming the norm. Think about some very large SCRs and associated parts
to convert to AC for distribution.
For several reasons
You must size the
I just thought of a better analogy.
The goal of almost any aeronautical engineer is to build a plane
that has good positive stability; you let go the stick and it
reverts to stable, level flight.
The reality of the power system more resembles the V22 Osprey, or
the Shuttle 'flying' on final
http://www.hydro.mb.ca/our_facilities/ts_nelson.shtml
- Original Message -
From: Chris Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 10:48 PM
Subject: Re: East Coast outage?
Once upon a time, Iljitsch van Beijnum [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
Maybe
Thus spake Petri Helenius [EMAIL PROTECTED]
subsidize) local power generation via renewable energy sources (e.g.
solar, wind, hydro) it would go a long way towards solving this
problem.
Rubbish.
If in order to make it viable such energy needs to be subsidized then it
is
not
David Lesher wrote:
True, and it's done. There are two very large DC lines in use:
The Pacific Intertie, from Washington State down to Califunny
A line from the Great Frozen North down to Minnesota.
IIUC, after the ice storm's enormous damage Hydro Quebec replaced their
interconnects with
Chris Adams wrote:
Basic physics. To run DC at the power levels required, the wire would
have to be over 100 feet in diameter IIRC. Look up the Edison vs. Tesla
power arguments for all kinds of information on AC vs. DC.
This was under the assumption that the transmission line was at the same
: East Coast outage?
Once upon a time, Iljitsch van Beijnum [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
Maybe a stupid question...
But what if the huge distribution systems used DC and the whole
thing
was only converted to AC close to the users in small installations?
This would get rid
Once upon a time, Chris Lewis [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
Chris Adams wrote:
Basic physics. To run DC at the power levels required, the wire would
have to be over 100 feet in diameter IIRC. Look up the Edison vs. Tesla
power arguments for all kinds of information on AC vs. DC.
This was under
ut all those SONET hubs in basements, SLC's in the burbs and such
-- they don't have generators. They have X hours of batteries. In
the fine print, it says the LEC will have a portable generator
on site before they die.
That's doable if the failure is local; say a semi taking out
a power pole.
Once upon a time, David Lesher [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
But all those SONET hubs in basements, SLC's in the burbs and such
-- they don't have generators. They have X hours of batteries. In
the fine print, it says the LEC will have a portable generator
on site before they die.
We've got
On Thursday, 14 August 2003, at 23:13PM, David Lesher wrote:
I'm no power engineer but I do not envy them. Can YOU build an
equal size TCP/IP network with the added requirement that you
never drop any more than say one or 2 bits/hour?
Perhaps the lesson to learn is that very large networks
Perhaps the lesson to learn is that very large networks don't always
lead to very high stability. A much larger number of smaller, more
autonomous generation and transmission facilities might have much more
reasonable interconnection requirements, and hence less wide-ranging
failure modes.
And if we extrapolate that lesson to IP networks it implies that any
medium to large sized organization should do their own BGP peering
and multihome to 3 or more upstream network providers. On the other
hand, if you understand why electrical networks shed load and develop
their cascading
On Friday, 15 August 2003, at 11:55AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Perhaps the lesson to learn is that very large networks don't always
lead to very high stability. A much larger number of smaller, more
autonomous generation and transmission facilities might have much more
reasonable
On Friday, 15 August 2003, at 15:34PM, Rich Casto wrote:
I wonder how much of the understanding and 100 years experience of
building power distribution networks is based on the fact that
affordable, distributed, small-scale power generation is not possible,
mandating large-scale, centralised
At 08:13 PM 8/14/2003, David Lesher wrote:
Then run parts at 105-110% and it gets really hard.
The power industry designs a grid that runs so close to capacity that if^W
when something big fails, the whole grid shuts down in a cascade. They
know it:
Rubbish again.
Welcome to the
subsidize) local power generation via renewable energy sources (e.g.
solar, wind, hydro) it would go a long way towards solving this problem.
Rubbish.
If in order to make it viable such energy needs to be subsidized then it is
not affordable.
And solar nor wind are good for base energy
Maybe we could attach the packets to hot air balloons and send them
with the wind?
RFC1149, RFC2549.
Stephen
is used
instead of hydrogen) carrier might be an option.
-e
-Original Message-
From: Petri Helenius [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 4:50 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Rich Casto
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: East Coast outage?
subsidize) local power generation
On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Petri Helenius wrote:
Maybe we could attach the packets to hot air balloons and send them with the wind?
This seems to be a promising idea, given that the high-tech industry is
already adept at producing immeasureable quantities of hot air.
--vadim
On vrijdag, aug 15, 2003, at 23:58 Europe/Amsterdam, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Amount of energy generated must be balanced with the amount of energy
used
at any time. Otherwise Bad Things (tm) will happen. The shutown of the
grid is a very good thing compared to what it would have been had it
On vrijdag, aug 15, 2003, at 23:49 Europe/Amsterdam, Petri Helenius
wrote:
And solar nor wind are good for base energy production so we´re stuck
with other methods unless you want to move IP packets only when it´s
windy.
Or only have cooling when the sun shines.
On Fri, Aug 15, 2003 at 05:52:49PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Rubbish.
If in order to make it viable such energy needs to be subsidized then it is
not affordable.
That's a rather amusing position for someone in the IP world to take.
I seem to recall DARPA subsidizing research into
Then run parts at 105-110% and it gets really hard.
The power industry designs a grid that runs so close to capacity that if^W
when something big fails, the whole grid shuts down in a cascade. They
know it:
Rubbish again.
Welcome to the wonderful world of physics. Ask your favourite
15, 2003 4:50 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Rich Casto
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: East Coast outage?
subsidize) local power generation via renewable energy sources (e.g.
solar, wind, hydro) it would go a long way towards solving this problem.
Rubbish.
If in order to make
I guess the Department of Energy disagrees.
http://www.eere.energy.gov/wind/
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of
Iljitsch van Beijnum
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 5:28 PM
To: Petri Helenius
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: East Coast
It seems to me that the power guys are still living somewhere in the
last century. Is it really impossible to absorb power spikes? We can go
from utility to battery or the other way around in milliseconds, so it
should be possible to activate something that can absorb a short spike
much
On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 00:25:14 +0200, Iljitsch van Beijnum said:
It seems to me that the power guys are still living somewhere in the
last century. Is it really impossible to absorb power spikes? We can go
from utility to battery or the other way around in milliseconds, so it
How many kVA
For two, most of the things that consume power are not in
fact consuming exactly a fixed amount of power. Light bulbs
go dimmer if you reduce voltage; electrical motors will produce
less power (torque X rpm) if voltage drops, etc. Minor blips
are happening all the time in major grids, and
i guess it would be amusing to read a power engineers' mailing list
discussing how the internet should have been designed.
randy
Then run parts at 105-110% and it gets really hard.
The power industry designs a grid that runs so close to capacity that if^W
when something big fails, the whole grid shuts down in a cascade. They
know it:
Rubbish again.
Welcome to the wonderful world of physics. Ask your
On Fri, Aug 15, 2003 at 05:52:49PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Rubbish.
If in order to make it viable such energy needs to be subsidized then it is
not affordable.
That's a rather amusing position for someone in the IP world to take.
I seem to recall DARPA subsidizing research
On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Randy Bush wrote:
i guess it would be amusing to read a power engineers'
mailing list discussing how the internet should have
been designed.
Well, if the Internet ever has a major outage, they'll be
entitled to share their opinions. Until then...
i guess it would be amusing to read a power engineers'
mailing list discussing how the internet should have
been designed.
Well, if the Internet ever has a major outage, they'll be
entitled to share their opinions. Until then...
let's see, 7007, 128/8, ...
something comes to mind about
On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 00:25:14 +0200, Iljitsch van Beijnum [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On vrijdag, aug 15, 2003, at 23:58 Europe/Amsterdam, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Amount of energy generated must be balanced with the amount of
energy used
at any time. Otherwise Bad Things (tm) will
On 15 Aug 2003, Scott A Crosby wrote:
I also think that its hard to appreciate the stability differences
between shipping power a few hundred feet and shipping power 1000
miles. It looks like that long-distance shipping is the root cause of
the half-dozen major outages over the past 30
Speaking on Deep Background, the Press Secretary whispered:
It seems to me that the power guys are still living somewhere in the
last century. Is it really impossible to absorb power spikes? We can go
from utility to battery or the other way around in milliseconds, so it
How many
] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of
Iljitsch van Beijnum
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 6:25 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: nanog list
Subject: Re: East Coast outage?
On vrijdag, aug 15, 2003, at 23:58 Europe/Amsterdam, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Amount of energy generated must be balanced
I just lost 80 circuits (Voice and Data), across multiple states on the
East Coast in the last 10 minutes. Is there a Northeast power outage or
fiber cut that anyone knows about?
Any info would be appreciated...
-Aaron
f 919.463.1290
Global Knowledge
Experts Teaching Experts
http://www.globalknowledge.com
-Original Message-
From: Aaron D. Britt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 4:32 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: East Coast
From CNN:
NEW YORK (CNN) -- A major power outage simultaneously struck several large
cities in the United States and Canada late Thursday afternoon.
Cities affected include New York; Boston, Massachusetts; Cleveland, Ohio;
Detroit, Michigan; Toronto, Ontario; and Ottawa, Ontario. The power
Aaron D. Britt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I just lost 80 circuits (Voice and Data), across multiple states on the
East Coast in the last 10 minutes. Is there a Northeast power outage or
fiber cut that anyone knows about?
Any info would be appreciated...
-Aaron
Power -- we were hit as
:
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:31:33 -0700
From: Aaron D. Britt [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: East Coast outage?
I just lost 80 circuits (Voice and Data), across multiple states on the
East Coast in the last 10 minutes. Is there a Northeast power outage or
fiber cut
CNN is reporting a New York State offical as saying that The
Niagara-Mohawk power grid is overloaded.
On Thu, Aug 14, 2003 at 01:31:33PM -0700, Aaron D. Britt wrote:
I just lost 80 circuits (Voice and Data), across multiple states on the
East Coast in the last 10 minutes. Is there a
)
From: Lloyd Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Aaron D. Britt [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: East Coast outage?
Current news links below. Info is still very sketchy:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/08/14/power.outage/index.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/14
: East Coast outage?
I just lost 80 circuits (Voice and Data), across multiple states on the
East Coast in the last 10 minutes. Is there a Northeast power outage or
fiber cut that anyone knows about?
Any info would be appreciated...
-Aaron
no word on the cause(s), but a ConEd transformer
on East 14th street was said to be on fine...not
sure how that could affect other cities, though...
BBC reports Mayor Bloomberg blaming a failure at ConEd plant at Niagra, but
also reports US Govt. spokesman blaming a fault in Manhattan...
Ray
On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
From CNN:
NEW YORK (CNN) -- A major power outage simultaneously struck several large
cities in the United States and Canada late Thursday afternoon.
Cities affected include New York; Boston, Massachusetts; Cleveland, Ohio;
Detroit, Michigan;
) wrote:
Latest is the failure at 14th street was the original failure and the
rest cascaded from there.
-d
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 4:51 PM
To: Aaron D. Britt
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: East Coast outage
in spite of reports on this list - so far no problems in Boston
Scott
At 01:31 PM 8/14/2003 -0700, Aaron D. Britt wrote:
I just lost 80 circuits (Voice and Data), across multiple states on the
East Coast in the last 10 minutes. Is there a Northeast power outage or
fiber cut that anyone knows about?
CNN speaks:
Major power outage hits New York, other large
I bet it was just a really big EPO that yet another security guard hit.
On Thu, Aug 14, 2003 at 05:03:27PM -0400, K. Scott Bethke wrote:
Looks like we lost the Niagara-Mohawk power grid , says it is not related to
Terrorism.
On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, Mike Tancsa wrote:
Although our main office here has generator power, what do all the
intermediary unmanaged network sites typically have for DC power along the
way ? One of my local fibre providers told me that the remote hut we are
off of only will last until about
At 02:03 PM 8/14/2003, K. Scott Bethke wrote:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/08/14/power.outage/index.html
Looks like we lost the Niagara-Mohawk power grid
This looks pretty much like the same thing that happened (one failure
causes cascading switch failures as the power overloads adjacent
Speaking on Deep Background, the Press Secretary whispered:
Am I the only one who is surprised that here we are now - over 7 years
later - and the electric grid industry still hasn't found/implemented a
design fix for this problem?
Guess what... Real Time is Hard. Real Time when
For good or bad, we in Alaska are not on a national grid. As it's
staying light still till around 9 or 10:00pm, and it's cloudy and not 85
like it was last week, it would not have bothered us as much.
FERC NERC are surely going to more active now.
Dee
On Thu, 2003-08-14 at 16:18, JC Dill
76 matches
Mail list logo
