Re: Outbound Route Optimization

2004-02-01 Thread E.B. Dreger
RAS> Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 15:35:28 -0500 RAS> From: Richard A Steenbergen RAS> On Mon, Jan 26, 2004 at 10:58:49AM -0800, Sean Finn wrote: RAS> RAS> > (Quiz for the list readers: RAS> >What percentage of the Internet routing table does RAS> >your network actually use?) Perhaps around

Re: Outbound Route Optimization

2004-01-27 Thread Mike Lloyd
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You hit the nail on the head. Fundametally, any route optimization technique that tries to treat an aggregate of the network as a blob which can be measured will suffer the same type of problems as an IP over ATM network. Observationally, IP over ATM has interesting laten

Re: Outbound Route Optimization

2004-01-27 Thread Michael . Dillon
>What is broken for one provider and fixed at another may very well break >something else that was working before at the first provider, yes? Besides >the difficulties of assigning a true metric to the overall reachability of >a /8 or any aggregate for that matter ("ok we decreased rtt by 20ms t

Re: Outbound Route Optimization

2004-01-27 Thread Michael . Dillon
>I am going to have to call bullshit on the MPLS fast reroute thing >there Wayne. The canonical counterexample is Sprint. To be sure, Sprint and Ebone have shown that it is possible to run a very high quality (low jitter) pure IP network, but... >Excellent engineering and ops folks top the list

Re: Outbound Route Optimization

2004-01-26 Thread Sean Finn
Richard A Steenbergen wrote: > > The issue that you describe does indeed offer some constraints to the > > application of route optimization technology. Within the scope of this > > issue, though, I think that you would agree that a network which is ALL > > transit would face no challenge here --

Re: Re[2]: Outbound Route Optimization.

2004-01-26 Thread Robert E. Seastrom
"Richard J. Sears" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Once I had fully implemented the unit, my latency dropped by 40% to > over 100 keynote locations around the world. In some circles, playing games with Keynote is considered excellent sport. ---Rob

Re[2]: Outbound Route Optimization.

2004-01-26 Thread Richard J. Sears
Scott, Not all boxes are created equal. I agree that certain manufactures of "route optimization" equipment really should be in the used car sales arena. However that is not the case with the unit we purchased. The RouteScience PathControl box we purchased only sends UDP traceroutes to the top 1

Re: Outbound Route Optimization.

2004-01-26 Thread Scott McGrath
This was one of the pipe dreams that RSVP was _supposed_ to solve in that you could set up a end to end path with precisely specified characteristics. problem is _all_ the devices in the path need to support RSVP. Now the snake oil salesmen are coming out with boxes which purport to monitor the

Re: Outbound Route Optimization

2004-01-26 Thread vijay gill
On Mon, Jan 26, 2004 at 08:47:54AM -0700, Wayne E. Bouchard wrote: > > Although in principle I agree with what you say here, I will point out > that the number and frequency of "significant" network outages > (excluding things like the recent power failure in LAX) has become > rare as compared to

Re: Outbound Route Optimization

2004-01-26 Thread Richard A Steenbergen
On Mon, Jan 26, 2004 at 10:58:49AM -0800, Sean Finn wrote: > > The issue that you describe does indeed offer some constraints to the > application of route optimization technology. Within the scope of this > issue, though, I think that you would agree that a network which is ALL > transit would f

Re: Outbound Route Optimization

2004-01-26 Thread Sean Finn
Richard, you have made some good points in this thread. One general observation, and then specific responses ... I don't assert that current route optimization technology solves ALL routing problems, but do think that there are some specific problems that automation can effectively, and grace

Re: Outbound Route Optimization

2004-01-26 Thread Rob Thomas
] 2.1.17 Simplicity ] ] The architecture MUST be simple enough so that Radia Perlman can ] explain all the important concepts in less than an hour. Oh, phew, good thing that isn't me. I've never been able to explain anything in less than an hour. :) -- Rob Thomas http://www.cymru.

Re: Outbound Route Optimization

2004-01-26 Thread Wayne E. Bouchard
Although in principle I agree with what you say here, I will point out that the number and frequency of "significant" network outages (excluding things like the recent power failure in LAX) has become rare as compared to what they were 5 or 6 years ago. Part of this is due to attitudes about the '

Re: Outbound Route Optimization

2004-01-26 Thread John Kristoff
On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 10:30:38 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Yes, we can probably make something "better" than BGP. But will we > be able to understand it? I thought this was a good measure of that question... from the current draft-irtf-routing-reqs draft: 2.1.17 Simplicity The archi

Re: Outbound Route Optimization

2004-01-26 Thread Valdis . Kletnieks
On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 10:35:38 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: > and such things may also be possible with MPLS. But are any of > the researchers seriously looking at how to provide a network > in which all packets flow through two diverse paths to provide > better reliability? There's enough banana-

Re: Outbound Route Optimization

2004-01-26 Thread Michael . Dillon
>BGP is relatively good at determining the best path when you a major >carrier with connectivity to "everyone" (i.e. when traffic flows >"naturally"), in many locations, and you engineer your network so that you >have sufficient capacity to support the traffic flows. In other words, BGP really o

Re: Outbound Route Optimization

2004-01-23 Thread Richard A Steenbergen
On Fri, Jan 23, 2004 at 11:01:14AM -0800, Richard J. Sears wrote: > > In reality, I learned that BGP is simply not up to the task of handling > anything beyond its limited scope - best path routing. In today's world, > we need to look beyond best path as it simply has nothing to do with > best pe

Re: Outbound Route Optimization

2004-01-23 Thread Richard J. Sears
I have been on a personal crusade for the last 8 months to address this very issue! We identified the exact same issues and questions as we grew from a single backbone to 7 backbones, each of various sizes ranging from gig connections to DS3s. In total I have almost 3GB of total available capacit

Re: Outbound Route Optimization

2004-01-22 Thread Tom (UnitedLayer)
On Thu, 22 Jan 2004, Patrick W.Gilmore wrote: > In any case, no matter how many resources or black boxes you have, you > cannot guarantee good performance on the 'Net. Too many people > involved over which you have no control. Even if you had control, BGP > is not the right tool to exert such co

Re: Outbound Route Optimization

2004-01-22 Thread Patrick W . Gilmore
On Jan 21, 2004, at 4:20 PM, vijay gill wrote: On Wed, Jan 21, 2004 at 09:05:46PM +, Paul Vixie wrote: My questions are these: "Is sub-optimal routing caused by BGP so pervasive it needs to be addressed?" that depends on your isp, and whether their routing policies (openness or cl

Re: Outbound Route Optimization

2004-01-22 Thread Olivier Bonaventure
Hello, > I am trying to determine for myself the relevance of Intelligent > Routing Devices like Sockeye, Route Science etc. I am not trying to > determine who does it better, but rather if the concept of optimizing > routes is addressing a significant problem in terms of improved > traffic perf

Re: Outbound Route Optimization

2004-01-21 Thread Tom (UnitedLayer)
On Wed, 21 Jan 2004, Richard A Steenbergen wrote: > I don't know if they're doing the same thing in Cali or not (they probably > are, since all the radio stations are owned by the same 2 companies), Yeah, NPR and CBS, both monopolistic empires with the same viewpoint :) > but here in NoVA land t

Re: Outbound Route Optimization

2004-01-21 Thread Richard A Steenbergen
On Wed, Jan 21, 2004 at 02:30:19PM -0800, Tom (UnitedLayer) wrote: > On Wed, 21 Jan 2004, Richard A Steenbergen wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 21, 2004 at 12:27:16PM -0800, Jim Devane wrote: > > > "Are these devices able to effectively address the need?" > > > > Sugar pills effectively address the needs o

Re: Outbound Route Optimization

2004-01-21 Thread Tom (UnitedLayer)
On Wed, 21 Jan 2004, Richard A Steenbergen wrote: > On Wed, Jan 21, 2004 at 12:27:16PM -0800, Jim Devane wrote: > > "Are these devices able to effectively address the need?" > > Sugar pills effectively address the needs of a great many ailments when > given to people who believe that they will wor

Re: Outbound Route Optimization

2004-01-21 Thread Richard A Steenbergen
On Wed, Jan 21, 2004 at 12:27:16PM -0800, Jim Devane wrote: > > "Are these devices able to effectively address the need?" Sugar pills effectively address the needs of a great many ailments when given to people who believe that they will work. And if the end result is an addressed need, who are w

Re: Outbound Route Optimization

2004-01-21 Thread Paul Vixie
> > ... depends on your isp, and whether their routing policies (openness > > or closedness of peering, shortest vs. longest exit, respect for MEDs) > > are a good match for their technology/tools, skills/experience, and > > resources/headroom. > > In practice, all of the above just turn out to b

Re: Outbound Route Optimization

2004-01-21 Thread vijay gill
On Wed, Jan 21, 2004 at 09:05:46PM +, Paul Vixie wrote: > > > My questions are these: > > > > "Is sub-optimal routing caused by BGP so pervasive it needs to be > > addressed?" > > that depends on your isp, and whether their routing policies (openness > or closedness of peering,

Re: Outbound Route Optimization

2004-01-21 Thread Paul Vixie
> My questions are these: > > "Is sub-optimal routing caused by BGP so pervasive it needs to be > addressed?" that depends on your isp, and whether their routing policies (openness or closedness of peering, shortest vs. longest exit, respect for MEDs) are a good match for their tech

Re: Outbound Route Optimization

2004-01-21 Thread Phil Rosenthal
On Jan 21, 2004, at 3:27 PM, Jim Devane wrote: Hello,   I am trying to determine for myself the relevance of Intelligent Routing Devices like Sockeye, Route Science etc. I am not trying to determine who does it better, but rather if the concept of optimizing routes is addressing a significant

Outbound Route Optimization

2004-01-21 Thread Jim Devane
Hello,   I am trying to determine for myself the relevance of Intelligent Routing Devices like Sockeye, Route Science etc. I am not trying to determine who does it better, but rather if the concept of optimizing routes is addressing a significant problem in terms of improved traffic perfo