Re: [NANOG] P2P traffic optimization Was: [Nanog] Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics [Was: Re: ATT VP: Internet to hit capacity by 2010]

oug Pasko" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, nanog@nanog.org Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 7:47:57 PM (GMT-0500) America/New_York Subject: Re: P2P traffic optimization Was: [Nanog] Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics [Was: Re: ATT VP: Internet to hit capacity by 2010] On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 6:30 PM,

Re: [Nanog] Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics [Was: Re: ATT VP: Internet to hit capacity by 2010]

esday, April 23, 2008 6:40:11 PM (GMT-0500) America/New_York Subject: Re: [Nanog] Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics [Was: Re: ATT VP: Internet to hit capacity by 2010] > However, as your chunk scheduling becomes more effective, it > usually becomes more expensive. At some point, its incre

Re: [Nanog] Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics [Was: Re: ATT VP: Internet to hit capacity by 2010]

> However, as your chunk scheduling becomes more effective, it > usually becomes more expensive. At some point, its increasing > complexity will reverse the trend and start slowing down > copies, as real-world clients begin to block making chunk > requests waiting for CPU to make scheduling dec

Re: [Nanog] Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics [Was: Re: ATT VP: Internet to hit capacity by 2010]

On 4/23/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Well. here's your problem; depending on the architecture, the > > IP addressing structure doesn't necessarily map to the > > network's cost structure. This is why I prefer the > > P4P/DillTorrent announcement model. > > > What's with th

Re: [Nanog] Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics [Was: Re: ATT VP: Internet to hit capacity by 2010]

> Well. here's your problem; depending on the architecture, the > IP addressing structure doesn't necessarily map to the > network's cost structure. This is why I prefer the > P4P/DillTorrent announcement model. What's with these cute cryptic and ultimately meaningless names? I used the term "

Re: [Nanog] Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics [Was: Re: ATT VP: Internet to hit capacity by 2010]

On Apr 23, 2008, at 1:45 PM, Daniel Reed wrote: > On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 5:12 AM, Petri Helenius <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >>> But there is another way. That is for software developers to build a >>> modified client that depends on a topology guru for information

Re: [Nanog] Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics [Was: Re: ATT VP: Internet to hit capacity by 2010]

On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 11:39 AM, Alexander Harrowell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Christopher Morrow > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > It strikes me that often just doing a reverse lookup on the peer > > address would be 'good enough' to keep things more '

Re: [Nanog] Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics [Was: Re: ATT VP: Internet to hit capacity by 2010]

On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 5:12 AM, Petri Helenius <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > But there is another way. That is for software developers to build a > > modified client that depends on a topology guru for information on the > > network topology. This topology guru would

Re: [Nanog] Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics [Was: Re: ATT VP: Internet to hit capacity by 2010]

On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Christopher Morrow < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > It strikes me that often just doing a reverse lookup on the peer > address would be 'good enough' to keep things more 'local' in a > network sense. Something like: > > 1) prefer peers with PTR's like mine (perhaps

Re: [Nanog] Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics [Was: Re: ATT VP: Internet to hit capacity by 2010]

On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 10:48 AM, Laird Popkin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This raises an interesting issue - should optimization of p2p traffic (P4P) > be based on "static" network information, or "dynamic" network information. > It's certainly easier for ISP's to provide a simple network map t

Re: [Nanog] Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics [Was: Re: ATT VP: Internet to hit capacity by 2010]

Harrowell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Stephane Bortzmeyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 10:10:28 AM (GMT-0500) America/New_York Subject: Re: [Nanog] Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics [Was: Re: ATT VP: Internet to hit capacity by

Re: [Nanog] Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics [Was: Re: ATT VP: Internet to hit capacity by 2010]

Personally I consider P4P a big step forward; it's good to see Big Verizon engaging with these issues in a non-coercive fashion. Just to braindump a moment, it strikes me that it would be very useful to be able to announce preference metrics by netblock (for example, to deal with networks with var

Re: [Nanog] Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics [Was: Re: ATT VP: Internet to hit capacity by 2010]

On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 02:02:21PM +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote a message of 46 lines which said: > This is where all the algorithmic tinkering of the P2P software > cannot solve the problem. You need a way to insert non-technical > information about the network into the d

Re: [Nanog] Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics [Was: Re: ATT VP: Internet to hit capacity by 2010]

SNSP = Simple Network Selection Protocol Alexander Harrowell wrote: > NCAP - Network Capability (or Cost) Announcement Protocol. > > On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 2:24 PM, Matthew Moyle-Croft > <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote: > > (I know, replying to your own email is sad ...)

Re: [Nanog] Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics [Was: Re: ATT VP: Internet to hit capacity by 2010]

NCAP - Network Capability (or Cost) Announcement Protocol. On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 2:24 PM, Matthew Moyle-Croft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > (I know, replying to your own email is sad ...) > > You could probably do this with a variant of DNS. Use an Anycast > > address common to everyone to solv

Re: [Nanog] Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics [Was: Re: ATT VP: Internet to hit capacity by 2010]

(I know, replying to your own email is sad ...) > You could probably do this with a variant of DNS. Use an Anycast > address common to everyone to solve the discovery problem. Client > sends a DNS request for a TXT record for, as an example, > 148.165.32.217.p2ptopology.org. The topology box

Re: [Nanog] Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics [Was: Re: ATT VP: Internet to hit capacity by 2010]

On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 2:02 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In the scenario above, I would expect the network operator to ban > connections to their DSL address block. Instead, they would put > some P2P clients in the rack with the topology guru middlebox > and direct the transactions there. Or

Re: [Nanog] Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics [Was: Re: ATT VP: Internet to hit capacity by 2010]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > ... > You need a way to insert non-technical > information about the network into the decision-making process. > The only way for this to work is to allow the network operator > to have a role in every P2P transaction. And to do that you need > a middlebox that sits i

Re: [Nanog] Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics [Was: Re: ATT VP: Internet to hit capacity by 2010]

> Isn't TCP already measuring throughput and latency of > the network for > RTO etc.? Why not expose those parameters for peers to > the local P2P > This is where you hit a serious problem. If you implemented > that in a client, it could be much worse than naive P2P for > quite a

Re: [Nanog] Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics [Was: Re: ATT VP: Internet to hit capacity by 2010]

The good news about a DillTorrent solution is that at least the user and ISP interests are aligned; there's no reason for the ISP to have the guru lie to the users (because you just know someone'll try it). However, it does require considerable trust from the users that it will actually lead to a b

Re: [Nanog] Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics [Was: Re: ATT VP: Internet to hit capacity by 2010]

> I fail to figure > out the necessary mathematics where topology information > would bring superior results compared to the usual greedy > algorithms where data is requested from the peers where it > seems to be flowing at the best rates. If local peers with > sufficient upstream bandwidth e

Re: [Nanog] Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics [Was: Re: ATT VP: Internet to hit capacity by 2010]

On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 1:13 PM, Mark Smith < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 11:55:58 +0100 > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > But there is another way. That is for software developers to build a > > modified client that depends on a topology guru for information on the > > networ

Re: [Nanog] Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics [Was: Re: ATT VP: Internet to hit capacity by 2010]

> Is there a problem that needs to be solved that is not solved by > Akamai's of the world already? Yes, the ones that aren't Akamai want to play too branodn ___ NANOG mailing list NANOG@nanog.org http://mailman.nanog.org/mailman/listinfo/nanog

Re: [Nanog] Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics [Was: Re: ATT VP: Internet to hit capacity by 2010]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > But there is another way. That is for software developers to build a > modified client that depends on a topology guru for information on the > network topology. This topology guru would be some software that is run > While the current bittorrent implementation is subo

Re: [Nanog] Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics [Was: Re: ATT VP: Internet to hit capacity by 2010]

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 11:55:58 +0100 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Time to push multicast as transport for bittorrent? > > Bittorrent clients are already multicast, only they do it in a crude way > that does not match network topology as well as it could. Moving to use > IP multicast raises a

Re: [Nanog] Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics [Was: Re: ATT VP: Internet to hit capacity by 2010]

> Time to push multicast as transport for bittorrent? Bittorrent clients are already multicast, only they do it in a crude way that does not match network topology as well as it could. Moving to use IP multicast raises a whole host of technical issues such as lack of multicast peering. Solving

Re: [Nanog] Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics [Was: Re: ATT VP: Internet to hit capacity by 2010]

Time to push multicast as transport for bittorrent? If the downloads get better performance that way, I think the clients would be around quicker that multicast would be enabled for consumer DSL or cable. Pete Paul Ferguson wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > - -- Wil

[Nanog] Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics [Was: Re: ATT VP: Internet to hit capacity by 2010]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 - -- William Warren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Here in comcast land hdtv is actually averaging around 12 megabits a second. Still adds up to staggering numbers..:) > Another disturbing fact inside this entire mess is that, by compressing HD conten