Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

On 27 February 2013 11:47, Owen DeLong wrote: > > On Feb 27, 2013, at 7:39 AM, Jay Ashworth wrote: > >> - Original Message - >>> From: "Jared Mauch" >> >>> Sad as we all know the main cost for 1g to a site is in the optics >>> (well actually the fiber build... But after that, it costs al

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

On Feb 27, 2013, at 7:39 AM, Jay Ashworth wrote: > - Original Message - >> From: "Jared Mauch" > >> Sad as we all know the main cost for 1g to a site is in the optics >> (well actually the fiber build... But after that, it costs almost >> nothing to light it at 1g). A pair of 20km opti

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

On 2/27/13 6:26 AM, Jared Mauch wrote: The reason is Hilton outsources it to AT&T. They don't build the networks for performance in my experience. I have started to avoid some hotels that moved from level3 to AT&T for their Internet providers as they are very slow at peak times. Sad as we all

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

- Original Message - > From: "Jared Mauch" > Sad as we all know the main cost for 1g to a site is in the optics > (well actually the fiber build... But after that, it costs almost > nothing to light it at 1g). A pair of 20km optics is about $250. I see that assertion a lot, and I want to

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

The reason is Hilton outsources it to AT&T. They don't build the networks for performance in my experience. I have started to avoid some hotels that moved from level3 to AT&T for their Internet providers as they are very slow at peak times. Sad as we all know the main cost for 1g to a site is

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

>The property jumped on-board in the late nineties, putting in a system >worthy of the next decade... >and has never updated it, cause it's "good enough". This is more likely the root cause of this particular problemŠyou see a lot of crufty old access points in the big chains, at least in hotels

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

On Feb 26, 2013, at 8:23 PM, Nathan Anderson wrote: > On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 7:58 PM, Owen DeLong > wrote: > >> In fact, many of the hotels that have solved this intelligently have >> simply >> placed DSLAMs in the phone room and run DSL to each room with >> a

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

On 26 February 2013 20:03, Jay Ashworth wrote: > Original Message - >> From: "Owen DeLong" > > [ quoting me ] >> > Ironically, I suspect that it's for the same reason that East Germany has >> > right up to the minute telephony services these days, while West German is >> > still sucking

RE: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 7:58 PM, Owen DeLong wrote: > In fact, many of the hotels that have solved this intelligently have > simply > placed DSLAMs in the phone room and run DSL to each room with > a relatively inexpensive (especially when you buy 500 of them at a

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

On 2/26/2013 10:57 PM, Owen DeLong wrote: > In fact, many of the hotels that have solved this intelligently have > simply placed DSLAMs in the phone room and run DSL to each room with a > relatively inexpensive (especially when you buy 500 of them at a time) > DSL modem in each room. Some also have

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

Original Message - > From: "Owen DeLong" [ quoting me ] > > Ironically, I suspect that it's for the same reason that East Germany has > > right up to the minute telephony services these days, while West German is > > still sucking hind tit: > > > > The big properties are, over all, likel

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

On Feb 26, 2013, at 6:49 PM, Jay Ashworth wrote: > - Original Message - >> From: "Valdis Kletnieks" > >> On Tue, 26 Feb 2013 17:45:18 -0800, Jeroen van Aart said: >>> Correct, one should not have expectations of fast reliable internet >>> with low latency in a hotel. >> >> The part th

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

he first nationwide 4G network. Original message From: Randy Date: 02/26/2013 6:56 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Jeroen van Aart ,valdis.kletni...@vt.edu Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network --- On Tue, 2/26/13, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote:

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

>From my Android phone on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network. Original message From: Jay Ashworth Date: 02/26/2013 6:47 PM (GMT-08:00) To: NANOG Subject: Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network - Original Message - > From: "Jeroen van Aart" >

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

On Feb 26, 2013, at 5:45 PM, Jeroen van Aart wrote: > On 02/09/2013 07:55 PM, Constantine A. Murenin wrote: >> When you are staying at a 3* hotel, should you have no expectations >> that you'll be getting at least a 3Mbps pipe and at least an under >> 100ms average latency, and won't be getting

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

--- On Tue, 2/26/13, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote: > From: valdis.kletni...@vt.edu > Subject: Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network > To: "Jeroen van Aart" > Cc: nanog@nanog.org > Date: Tuesday, February 26, 2013, 6:30 PM > On Tue, 26 Feb 2013 17:45:18 -

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

- Original Message - > From: "Valdis Kletnieks" > On Tue, 26 Feb 2013 17:45:18 -0800, Jeroen van Aart said: > > Correct, one should not have expectations of fast reliable internet > > with low latency in a hotel. > > The part that always puzzled me is why a major high-tier chain like > H

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

- Original Message - > From: "Jeroen van Aart" > - internet connectivity at a hotel is just another free amenity like > after shyave or a hair net, be glad you can at least check your email > :-) It is like hell. It is very often not one paid, but *unreasonably* expensive ($5-10 a *day*

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

On Tue, 26 Feb 2013 17:45:18 -0800, Jeroen van Aart said: > Correct, one should not have expectations of fast reliable internet with > low latency in a hotel. The part that always puzzled me is why a major high-tier chain like Hilton can't get it right, but a Motel 6 can... :) pgp_nmdk5jzCn.pgp

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

On 02/09/2013 07:55 PM, Constantine A. Murenin wrote: When you are staying at a 3* hotel, should you have no expectations that you'll be getting at least a 3Mbps pipe and at least an under 100ms average latency, and won't be getting a balancer that would be breaking up your ssh sessions? Correc

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

On 26/02/13 17:19, Warren Bailey wrote: Perhaps I don't understand.. Generally in wireless we look at two things; bits to hertz and noise components. If the noise is LESS and the carrier is the same power spectral density, you will have a greater c/n. I've always wondered why wifi didn't imple

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

k. Original message From: Rob Seastrom Date: 02/26/2013 3:40 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Owen DeLong Cc: Warren Bailey ,NANOG Subject: Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network Owen DeLong writes: > N on 5Ghz takes advantage of the increased bandwidth of the 5Ghz > channel where

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

Owen DeLong writes: > N on 5Ghz takes advantage of the increased bandwidth of the 5Ghz > channel where A merely replicated G on 5Ghz for all practical > purposes. You have that backwards, actually, but the legacy support in 802.11g for 802.11b clients does represent a performance hit even in th

RE: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

4 GHz, increasing Mbps/area. Frank -Original Message- From: Owen DeLong [mailto:o...@delong.com] Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 10:34 AM To: Frank Bulk Cc: NANOG Subject: Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network Correct. However, while A is 5Ghz (only), it's not significantly better th

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

ationwide 4G network. Original message From: Owen DeLong Date: 02/25/2013 8:38 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Frank Bulk Cc: NANOG Subject: Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network Correct. However, while A is 5Ghz (only), it's not significantly better than G. The true performance g

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

lto:o...@delong.com>> Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 08:56:05 -0800 To: User mailto:wbai...@satelliteintelligencegroup.com>> Cc: Frank Bulk mailto:frnk...@iname.com>>, NANOG mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> Subject: Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network N has a number of advantages… Bette

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network. > > > > Original message > From: Owen DeLong > Date: 02/25/2013 8:38 AM (GMT-08:00) > To: Frank Bulk > Cc: NANOG > Subject: Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network > > > Correct. However, while A is

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

"Frank Bulk" wrote: > The IEEE 802.11n standards do not require 5 GHz support. It's typical, but > not necessary. > > Frank > > -Original Message- > From: Owen DeLong [mailto:o...@delong.com] > Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2013 2:07 PM > To: Jay

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

; The IEEE 802.11n standards do not require 5 GHz support. It's typical, but > not necessary. > > Frank > > -Original Message- > From: Owen DeLong [mailto:o...@delong.com] > Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2013 2:07 PM > To: Jay Ashworth > Cc: NANOG > Subject: Re

RE: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

The IEEE 802.11n standards do not require 5 GHz support. It's typical, but not necessary. Frank -Original Message- From: Owen DeLong [mailto:o...@delong.com] Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2013 2:07 PM To: Jay Ashworth Cc: NANOG Subject: Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network On F

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

On Feb 18, 2013, at 3:07 PM, joel jaeggli wrote: > On 2/18/13 1:42 AM, Owen DeLong wrote: >> On Feb 17, 2013, at 21:12 , Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: >> >>> On Sun, 17 Feb 2013, Owen DeLong wrote: >>> Greater attenuation is an oversimplification. > > Along some dimensions sure, e.g. we hav

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

On 2/18/13 1:42 AM, Owen DeLong wrote: On Feb 17, 2013, at 21:12 , Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: On Sun, 17 Feb 2013, Owen DeLong wrote: Greater attenuation is an oversimplification. Along some dimensions sure, e.g. we have quite a lot of parameters we can fiddle with. With respect to an is

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

On Mon, 18 Feb 2013, Owen DeLong wrote: The reason 5Ghz penetrates stucco better, for example is that the 23cm wavelength is more than 4x the size of the openings in most of the chicken wire used to adhere stucco to walls. The 12cm wavelength of 5Ghz, OTOH, goes through quite nicely.

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

On Feb 17, 2013, at 21:12 , Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > On Sun, 17 Feb 2013, Owen DeLong wrote: > >> Greater attenuation is an oversimplification. 5Ghz penetrates things like >> stucco and concrete better than 2.4. OTOH, 2.4 gets through trees > > My empirical experience with 5GHz says it pe

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

On Sun, 17 Feb 2013, Owen DeLong wrote: Greater attenuation is an oversimplification. 5Ghz penetrates things like stucco and concrete better than 2.4. OTOH, 2.4 gets through trees My empirical experience with 5GHz says it penetrates concrete a lot less than 2.4. For instance, in one building

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

On Feb 17, 2013, at 4:32 PM, Owen DeLong wrote: > > On Feb 17, 2013, at 4:17 PM, joel jaeggli wrote: > >> On 2/17/13 12:18 PM, Jay Ashworth wrote: >>> - Original Message - From: "Owen DeLong" I think by A you actually mean 5Ghz N. A doesn't do much better than G, thou

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

On Feb 17, 2013, at 4:17 PM, joel jaeggli wrote: > On 2/17/13 12:18 PM, Jay Ashworth wrote: >> - Original Message - >>> From: "Owen DeLong" >>> I think by A you actually mean 5Ghz N. A doesn't do much better than G, >>> though >>> you still have the advantage of wider channels and less

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

On 2/17/13 12:18 PM, Jay Ashworth wrote: - Original Message - From: "Owen DeLong" I think by A you actually mean 5Ghz N. A doesn't do much better than G, though you still have the advantage of wider channels and less frequency congestion with other uses. No, my ThinkPad doesn't *do* N,

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

- Original Message - > From: "Owen DeLong" > I think by A you actually mean 5Ghz N. A doesn't do much better than G, though > you still have the advantage of wider channels and less frequency congestion > with other uses. No, my ThinkPad doesn't *do* N, 5GHz or otherwise. Neither does m

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

On Feb 17, 2013, at 08:33 , Jay Ashworth wrote: > - Original Message - >> From: "Scott Howard" > >>> A VPN or SSH session (which is what most hotel guests traveling for >>> work will do) won't cache at all well, so this is a very bad idea. >>> Might improve some things, but not the rea

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

On 2/17/13 8:33 AM, Jay Ashworth wrote: - Original Message - From: "Scott Howard" A VPN or SSH session (which is what most hotel guests traveling for work will do) won't cache at all well, so this is a very bad idea. Might improve some things, but not the really important ones. The ch

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

- Original Message - > From: "Scott Howard" > > A VPN or SSH session (which is what most hotel guests traveling for > > work will do) won't cache at all well, so this is a very bad idea. > > Might improve some things, but not the really important ones. > > The chances of the average hote

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 6:12 PM, Constantine A. Murenin wrote: > And at least in the US, I'm yet to encounter a complementary WiFi at any hotel that would be doing JavaScript insertion, so I'm not sure > where you get your information that the free internet always means ads > or a very high level

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

r money by going elsewhere? I hear microwave links are pretty popular these days, and offer great bandwidth and latency. C. >> -Original Message- >> From: Mike Lyon [mailto:mike.l...@gmail.com] >> Sent: Saturday, 09 February, 2013 23:23 >> To: Constantine A. Mureni

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

On 2/11/13, Graham Donaldson wrote: > On Sat, Feb 09, 2013 at 07:55:59PM -0800, Constantine A. Murenin wrote: > I personally think you're being unreasonable on the bandwidth and latency > expectations, Hotel Internet connections are > there as a convenience rather than some kind of business grade

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

> "MO" == Masataka Ohta writes: MO> Internet connectivity (FTTH) Fibre-To-The-Hotel, eh? :) :) :) :) :) -JimC -- James Cloos OpenPGP: 1024D/ED7DAEA6

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

On Sat, Feb 09, 2013 at 07:55:59PM -0800, Constantine A. Murenin wrote: > Dear NANOG@, > > In light of the recent discussion titled, "The 100 Gbit/s problem in > your network", I'd like to point out that smaller operators and > end-sites are currently very busy having and ignoring the 10 Mbit/s >

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

Constantine A. Murenin wrote: > The problem here is that somehow someone at Hyatt decided that a > regular low-end asymmetrical ~10Mbps/~1Mbps fibre-optic connection > from SureWest could be shared (together with a lousy 1.5Mbps T1 from > T) between 151 rooms, when almost every single person stayi

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

When staying at Homestead a few years back, they would close my Internet connection, because I was downloading movies via peer to peer. It took me a while and escalating to a relatively competent network engineer to figure it out: "Mate, I don't have any p2p software installed, may be my computer i

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

On 10 February 2013 11:02, joel jaeggli wrote: > On 2/9/13 7:55 PM, Constantine A. Murenin wrote: >> >> Dear NANOG@, >> >> In light of the recent discussion titled, "The 100 Gbit/s problem in >> your network", I'd like to point out that smaller operators and >> end-sites are currently very busy ha

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

*Now* I understand the problem. Do you really think that the content providers, and the delivery systems they purposefully choose for that, actually make that possible, much less practical? (I'm not sure that I understand what you mean with that sentence). If you mean that a CSP already has an

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

Hello, The Apple TV cited as an example was an example. If the TV Show/films/movies/etc.. is static content, then we should be able to cache it, at the hotel's cache server. The question is "how much it helps". Everyone can easily find that caching Google logo is possible, also some pictu

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

- Original Message - > From: "fredrik danerklint" > > The Apple TV cited as an example was an example. > > If the TV Show/films/movies/etc.. is static content, then we > should be able to cache it, at the hotel's cache server. Oh. *Now* I understand the problem. Do you really think th

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

You seem to be mistaken that any bandwidth issue will be remedied by TLMC. A significant number (well over the 50% mark I'd wager) will not be remedied. This thread was started over such a subject. And to save 1 - 5 Mbit/s of this bandwidth is wrong, how? The Apple TV cited as an example was

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

On 2/9/13 7:55 PM, Constantine A. Murenin wrote: Dear NANOG@, In light of the recent discussion titled, "The 100 Gbit/s problem in your network", I'd like to point out that smaller operators and end-sites are currently very busy having and ignoring the 10 Mbit/s problem in their networks. Hotel

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

> Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 17:33:04 +0100 > From: fredrik danerklint > Subject: Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network > Since when have you started to publish your sensitive corporate > documents on public sites, cause that's what's needed for TLMC to > cache your

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

Not to be pedantic, but The Last Mile Cache will actually help you to solve this problem, with a local cache server at the hotel. The hotel's ISP must participate in TLMC before they, the hotel, can have a cache server running. And as a business traveller I want to have the ISP or Hotel cache

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

Subject: Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network Date: Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 05:07:49PM +0100 Quoting JP Velders (j...@veldersjes.net): > > Not to be pedantic, but The Last Mile Cache will actually help you to > > solve this problem, with a local cache server at the hotel. > An

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

> Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 13:08:04 +0100 > From: fredrik danerklint > Subject: Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network > Not to be pedantic, but The Last Mile Cache will actually help you to > solve this problem, with a local cache server at the hotel. > The hotel's ISP m

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

Others think that load-balancing 150+ rooms with Fast Ethernet and WiFi in every room, plus a couple of conference/meeting rooms (e.g. potentially more than a single /24 worth of all sorts of devices) on a couple of independent T1 and ADSL links is an acceptable practice. Yes, a T1 and an ADSL, wi

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

On 9 February 2013 22:59, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > On Sat, 9 Feb 2013, Constantine A. Murenin wrote: > >> When you are staying at a 3* hotel, should you have no expectations that >> you'll be getting at least a 3Mbps pipe and at least an under 100ms average >> latency, and won't be getting a ba

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

On Sat, 9 Feb 2013, Constantine A. Murenin wrote: When you are staying at a 3* hotel, should you have no expectations that you'll be getting at least a 3Mbps pipe and at least an under 100ms average latency, and won't be getting a balancer that would be breaking up your ssh sessions? Not rea

Re: 10 Mbit/s problem in your network

"why do the sub-contracted internet support companies design and support such broken-by-design setups?" Because they don't know any better and lack the technical clue on how to implement a network that can support a hotel-full (or half-full) of people... But i'm sure they all have their MCSEs and