Re: TCP congestion control and large router buffers

2010-12-23 Thread Carsten Bormann
Some more historical pointers: If you want to look at the early history of the latency discussion, look at Stuart Cheshire's famous rant "It's the Latency, Stupid" (http://rescomp.stanford.edu/~cheshire/rants/Latency.html). Then look at Matt Mathis's 1997 TCP equation (and the 1998 Padhye-Firoiu

RE: TCP congestion control and large router buffers

2010-12-22 Thread George Bonser
> I don't know if you are referring to the "RED in a different light" > paper: that was never published, though an early draft escaped and can > be found on the net. > > "RED in a different light" identifies two bugs in the RED algorithm, > and > proposes a better algorithm that only depends on th

Re: TCP congestion control and large router buffers

2010-12-22 Thread Fred Baker
On Dec 22, 2010, at 8:48 AM, Jim Gettys wrote: > I don't know if you are referring to the "RED in a different light" paper: > that was never published, though an early draft escaped and can be found on > the net. Precisely. > "RED in a different light" identifies two bugs in the RED algorithm

Re: TCP congestion control and large router buffers

2010-12-22 Thread Jim Gettys
On 12/21/2010 04:24 PM, Fred Baker wrote: On Dec 20, 2010, at 11:18 PM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: On Mon, 20 Dec 2010, Jim Gettys wrote: Common knowledge among whom? I'm hardly a naive Internet user. Anyone actually looking into the matter. The Cisco "fair-queue" command was introduced i

Re: TCP congestion control and large router buffers

2010-12-21 Thread Fred Baker
On Dec 20, 2010, at 11:18 PM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > On Mon, 20 Dec 2010, Jim Gettys wrote: > >> Common knowledge among whom? I'm hardly a naive Internet user. > > Anyone actually looking into the matter. The Cisco "fair-queue" command was > introduced in IOS 11.0 according to >

Re: TCP congestion control and large router buffers

2010-12-21 Thread Sam Stickland
On 21 Dec 2010, at 07:18, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: On Mon, 20 Dec 2010, Jim Gettys wrote: Common knowledge among whom? I'm hardly a naive Internet user. Anyone actually looking into the matter. The Cisco "fair-queue" command was introduced in IOS 11.0 according to < http://www.cisco.com/en/

Re: TCP congestion control and large router buffers

2010-12-20 Thread Mikael Abrahamsson
On Mon, 20 Dec 2010, Jim Gettys wrote: Common knowledge among whom? I'm hardly a naive Internet user. Anyone actually looking into the matter. The Cisco "fair-queue" command was introduced in IOS 11.0 according to

Re: TCP congestion control and large router buffers

2010-12-20 Thread Jim Gettys
On 12/19/2010 02:16 PM, Joel Jaeggli wrote: On 12/9/10 7:20 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: On Thu, 9 Dec 2010, Vasil Kolev wrote: I wonder why this hasn't made the rounds here. From what I see, a change in this part (e.g. lower buffers in customer routers, or a change (yet another) to the conge

Re: TCP congestion control and large router buffers

2010-12-19 Thread Joel Jaeggli
On 12/9/10 7:20 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > On Thu, 9 Dec 2010, Vasil Kolev wrote: > >> I wonder why this hasn't made the rounds here. From what I see, a >> change in this part (e.g. lower buffers in customer routers, or a >> change (yet another) to the congestion control algorithms) would do

TCP congestion control and large router buffers

2010-12-14 Thread Jim Gettys
As I'm attempting to lay out in my posts, there are are a plethora of problems, end-to-end in the network. Would that there was only one problem. Excessive, unmanaged buffers afflict the user's OS's (Windows, Mac and Linux alike), particularly on recent hardware. Home routers and the broadban

RE: TCP congestion control and large router buffers

2010-12-14 Thread Mikael Abrahamsson
On Tue, 14 Dec 2010, George Bonser wrote: that sort of delay. Some form of AQM is probably a good thing as would be the wider use of ECN. Finding out that a buffer filled and a packet (or many packets) was dropped five seconds after the fact, isn't going ECN pretty much needs WRED, and then p

RE: TCP congestion control and large router buffers

2010-12-14 Thread George Bonser
> On Tue, 14 Dec 2010, Sam Stickland wrote: > > > But there's no need for AQM, just smaller buffers would make a huge > > difference. > > Well, yes, buffering packets more than let's say 30-50ms on a 1 meg > link > doesn't make much sense. But doing some basic AQM would make things > even > bette

Re: TCP congestion control and large router buffers

2010-12-14 Thread Mikael Abrahamsson
On Tue, 14 Dec 2010, Sam Stickland wrote: But there's no need for AQM, just smaller buffers would make a huge difference. Well, yes, buffering packets more than let's say 30-50ms on a 1 meg link doesn't make much sense. But doing some basic AQM would make things even better (some packets wou

Re: TCP congestion control and large router buffers

2010-12-13 Thread Mikael Abrahamsson
On Mon, 13 Dec 2010, Sam Stickland wrote: Ironically though, wouldn't smaller buffers cost less thus making the CPEs 1 megabyte of buffer (regular RAM) isn't really expensive. cheaper still? I believe the argument made in the blog post is that cheaper RAM been causing the CPE manufacturers t

Re: TCP congestion control and large router buffers

2010-12-09 Thread Mikael Abrahamsson
On Thu, 9 Dec 2010, Vasil Kolev wrote: I wonder why this hasn't made the rounds here. From what I see, a change in this part (e.g. lower buffers in customer routers, or a change (yet another) to the congestion control algorithms) would do miracles for end-user perceived performance and should

TCP congestion control and large router buffers

2010-12-09 Thread Vasil Kolev
https://gettys.wordpress.com/2010/12/06/whose-house-is-of-glasse-must-not-throw-stones-at-another/ I wonder why this hasn't made the rounds here. From what I see, a change in this part (e.g. lower buffers in customer routers, or a change (yet another) to the congestion control algorithms) would do