Re: nettime Jaron lanier: The Internet destroyed the middle class

2013-05-16 Thread Morlock Elloi
It has nothing to do with 'digital' and everything to do with productivity and near-zero friction distribution. No one needs 95% of 'producers' in the culture industry. The 5% are giving us all we need (and only tiny fraction of these 5% are employed by MSM - the rest are independents catering

Re: nettime Jaron lanier: The Internet destroyed the middle class

2013-05-16 Thread Felix Stalder
On 05/15/2013 05:40 PM, newme...@aol.com wrote: Is there any body of research that does this -- with or without McLuhan? Manuel Castells immediately springs to mind, who not only wrote a book called Internet Galaxy (by far not his best, though), but premises his entire analysis on the

Re: nettime Jaron lanier: The Internet destroyed the middle class

2013-05-16 Thread Newmedia
Felix: Thanks -- I was hoping (okay, anticipating) that you would reply! g 1) Castels: Manuel Castells immediately springs to mind -- of course he does and I've read your excellent review/analysis of his work. How has he been received among his peers? I've talked with a few of them and they

Re: nettime Jaron lanier: The Internet destroyed the middle class

2013-05-15 Thread Patrice Riemens
Mark - and others, Whatever the name of the (class) beast, or the nature of the (digital) technology, my only interest is to have the vast majority of the people have a decent, interesting, enjoyable, and healthy life - from birth to death. The present dispensation does not provide for that.

Re: nettime Jaron lanier: The Internet destroyed the middle class

2013-05-15 Thread Jonathan Marshall
Mark writes: But, before you roll up your sleeves, if you want to have any useful ideas on the structure of labor (and leisure and consumption) then you must begin with a CRASH effort to understand the impact of *digital* technology on the economy. You could also begin with a crash course on

Re: nettime Jaron lanier: The Internet destroyed the middle class

2013-05-15 Thread Newmedia
Jon: As i said it appears to me that people have been struggling with this since the 90s and i see no sign of it stopping. Thanks! You are certainly correct that the various professions have circled their own wagons and not stepped up to the challenge of understanding the effects of

Re: nettime Jaron lanier: The Internet destroyed the middle class

2013-05-14 Thread John Hopkins
But isn't it all just a bit Luddite? What kind of work were all those Kodak employees doing? Putting transparencies in plastic boxes to post to the owners. It's just a rearrangement of social labour, like when Manchester Actually a substantial chunk of their work was related to the

Re: nettime Jaron lanier: The Internet destroyed the middle class

2013-05-14 Thread Rob Myers
On 13/05/13 18:11, Keith Hart wrote: Thanks for posting this. It's a great interview and I downloaded the book onto my Kindle. Lanier's ideas about the middle class as an artificial product of modernity are interesting That sounds similar to Paul Graham's interesting opinions about unions -

Re: nettime Jaron lanier: The Internet destroyed the middle class (2)

2013-05-14 Thread Brian Holmes
I'm sorry, I should have given the source for my observation about the return of high-wage and low-wage jobs in the US, compared to the devastating loss of mid-wage jobs. It is here: http://bigstory.ap.org/interactive/interactive-great-reset It's an amazing little animated graph, dated 2013.

Re: nettime Jaron lanier: The Internet destroyed the middle class

2013-05-14 Thread Newmedia
Brian: Let's get to work on this. Great idea! But, before you roll up your sleeves, if you want to have any useful ideas on the structure of labor (and leisure and consumption) then you must begin with a CRASH effort to understand the impact of *digital* technology on the economy.

Re: nettime Jaron lanier: The Internet destroyed the middle class

2013-05-14 Thread Wolfgang Sützl
The middle class is of course a construct. It seems to me what is happening in the disappearance of that class is that we simply can no longer pretend it has an existence beyond a political will to work with this construct. And did the idea of the middle class not result from a desire to make a

Re: nettime Jaron lanier: The Internet destroyed the middle class

2013-05-13 Thread Brian Holmes
On 05/13/2013 07:11 PM, Keith Hart wrote: Lanier's ideas about the middle class as an artificial product of modernity are interesting and of course I loved all that stuff about the digital revolution generating a shift from formal to informal economy. The middle classes dependent on a