Dave and Listreaders;
[pix not attached for email list, but she got 'em]
Please fwd this with your thoughts on the matter to the poor girl who thinks
that her 1970 Cutlass is a rare "transitional model Hurst" 1969 issue post
but wait not a post car.
her eddress is: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
her ebay name: gearjammer5572
see the car at ebay: item # 160042176128
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=160042176128&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=006
or
http://tinyurl.com/ydj3yb
She says the VIN is 336879M431697, which SO does not match the photos.
My take on the matter is below:
..++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
From: "Christopher Witt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cindy:
Perhaps you just have the wrong photos in the ad. Perhaps you got the VIN
off the PAPERWORK, and not off the vehicle itself. I had assumed that you
knew how to find the VIN on the car itself, as you have assured me that you
are not the typical girly girl.
I look at the ad for ebay # 160042176128 and I see a 1970 Cutlass...
Not a "transitional car," nor any type of 442, let alone a Hurst. Sorry.
Since you seem to be concerned about my qualifications, I assure you that I
know this era Oldsmobile inside and out, FAR better than any "tax
commisioner" or "Hollander" you may have handy. I have dismantled dozens of
cars, 100's of engines, and even rebuilt a few cars from the bare frame up.
You may wish to peruse the FAQ files on Oldsmobile thru e.g. 442.com, and
notice who wrote much of the sections on Engines and Engine Parts. I have
since learned much more about VIN's and Body Plates, and the hidden VIN
stamps and such. You -so- will not win if you try to assert more knowledge
than I have about this era Oldsmobile, so let's lay that to rest right now.
The item pictured in the ebay ad #160042176128 is all 1970 model year car.
Now, that's not BAD, there are many things about a 1970 that make it
desirable. The one-year issue front fenders, for example. But, if you
looked at that green car and got VIN # 336879M431697 off it... then your
car has been subjected to VIN tampering, or else EVERY SINGLE BODY PANEL
surrounding the VIN and body plate have been replaced with 1970 panels- and
that is absurd. We went over this before. The 1969 models would have
different: every piece fwd of the firewall except the hood hinges; dors;
rear quarter panels; decklid; rear bumper and brackets; etc. Can you
imagine replacing all that with 1970 parts? Neither can I.
Attached is a photo of a real GM VIN rivet. Notice the scallops about the
OD.
These rivets are generally, but not always, installed from the bottom, with
the scrunched side on top and the scalloped head visible from underside
with a flashlight. You will please ck your VIN rivets and see if they match
real GM ones. If the rivet head is on top, simply pry loose the plastic
bezel that should be in place about the VIN tag and you can then readily
see the rivets.
If the VIN rivets do not have that feature, then it has been fiddled
with, and the police should be called in to check.
If the VIN rivets to have scallops, and the plate actually reads
"336879M431697" then it gets interesting.
The car's body plate will also state the Year of Issue: right after "ST..."
on the top line or top full line... it will say "69" for a 1969 model year
or your green car should say "70" of course. The body plate is typically
seen on the cowl, driver's side, after opening the hood.
referring to the 1972 Parts Manual, based on what I see in the pix, your
car's VIN is
332770_######, [F-85 V8 Club Coupe] or perhaps
336770_###### [Cutlass V8 Sports Coupe (by far most likely)], or perhaps
344770_###### [4-4-2 High Performance V8 Sports Coupe (nah, that's no 442)]
Of course by now you know that this decodes as follows:
3 = Olds division of GM
_32 = F85, or _36 = Cutlass V8 [most likely your car], or _44 = 442 [NOT
your car]
___77 = the POST type body style, called either Club or Sports Coupe by
Olds literature
_____0 = last digit of year of issue; 0 = 1970; 9= 1969, etc.
______[blank above] next is a letter indicating the GM assembly plant
_______###### are the 6 digits of the car's sequential VIN, that car's
exact ID number
The VIN you cite in the ad: 336879M431697
says
3= Olds,
_36 = Cutlass V8 line
___87 = HOLIDAY COUPE [No post *1]
_____M = Lansing MI built.
______431697 = the car's sequential serial number.
*1- BUSTED!! This car obviously has a post and obviously is a 1970,
therefore that VIN does not go with this car. If you got that VIN off the
car itself, you have an altered VIN car and you must call the police
immediately. If you have paperwork that does not match the car, then you
need to iron that issue out with the person you bought it from.
A short version of this VIN info will be found stamped into the engine
block, the trans, and 2-3 hidden locations on the frame as well. Sometimes
on the cowl under the HVAC plenum also.
The short version leaves out the "sales code" 4 digits [2nd thru 5th
above]
E.g., if your car's VIN [the real one, on the dash tag] is
336770M100101, then the VIN stamp on the engine, trans, etc. will be
30M100101, which pegs it as Olds, 1970, Lansing built [the M], and the
exact car ID #.
You can EASILY ck your engine block for the stamped VIN derivative which
will tell you what year that block is, if it matches that car ["numbers
matching" is just getting started here], etc. This pad is at the front LH
corner of the motor, on the LH side, just under the cylinder head, on the
block itself. If you find the head ID number at the front left corner of
the motor, and the small coolant freeze plug right under that, keep going
down another inch or two to the vertical machined wall about 3/4 x 3" or
so. On that pad will be the engine's VIN stamp.
Attached is a close photo of what that looks like. Attached is a pic of
one from a '68 Olds. It says
38M246406
which means
3= Olds
_8 = 1968
__M = Lansing built
___246406 = the original car's final 6 digits. No clue as to car's body
style.
Note the factory machine marks on that pad.
Since we are right there anyhow, let's go over the head casting ID.
You sent me a block casting number before, "395558-2"- which says "350,
1968-1976 issue"
[Please look over the block and head ID section of the FAQ files for all
the gory details]
Now read the number on your car's head's corner. See attached pic of a #7
head. Front end of the LH head, or aft end of the RH head- next to the #1
or #8 spark plug. Where the head in my example photo has a "7", your head
will say "5" if it is a 1969 issue, or gee whiz, let me guess, "6" for 1970
cars. [Your car is a 1970, regardless of what the VIN says, so, it will
have "6" heads unless that has been changed]
Please let me know what your investigation of these numbers and -facts-
turns up.
If your car seriously has a 1969 VIN plate, then either
1) it has been fiddled with and the real VIN should be determined by the
stamps on the engine, trans, and frame, and of course the authorities
brought in to check LEIN for stolen, or
2) it truly is a factory 1970 issued with a 1969 VIN, with all the right
VIN rivets, factory VIN stamps and such... in which case Barrett-Jackson
would be the correct auction venue, not eBay.
The car is clearly not a 442, and therefore cannot be any sort of Hurst, as
your phone message to me implied. So sorry to burst that bubble.
-----------------------
Chris Witt
*the* Rocket Scientist
1303 W. Miller Rd.
Lansing MI 48911
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cell 517-449-0432 weekends or short weekday calls or leave message.
Home 517-882-9747 thru 10-11pm MI time most days
_________________________________________________________________
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