Thanks to everyone that replied to this question. I feel that I have a MUCH
more well-rounded view of how this works at other organizations, and where
the pitfalls are. I am going to develop a document for the developers that
outlines how I see this working. I will share it with the list when I
Whether a programmer tunes SQL depends on their answer to another question,
Does the programmer care about overall application performance? If they do
and a significant part of the application involves a database then they need
to get on a professional development track to become a Database
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I may open a can of worms - but don't intend to...
zymurgy's law: once you open a can of worms, the only way to recan them
is to get a bigger can.;-)
In our company many developers have DBA access to databases and
in fact nobody does anything stupid. I have
Well, I sent this to the list yesterday but it never showed up, trying
again.
Learn the basics of executing SQL from Java:
Statement - basic SQL statement
Prepared Statement - precompiled SQL statement (bind variables)
Callable Statement - calling database procedures/functions
Get the
On Fri, Mar 29, 2002 at 03:33:20PM -0800, John Kanagaraj wrote:
The reason may be driven by the requirement of
'develop-within-this-deadline' for Developers, and
'get-this-query-to-respond-within-1-sec' for DBAs. The DBA's responsibility
(among others) is to run a well tuned system, the
Tank
Fairfield Resorts, Inc.
954-935-4117
-Original Message-
From: Jamadagni, Rajendra [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2002 8:48 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Subject: RE: Do programmers tune SQL?
I moved from development to DBA, so now no one
Greg,
Don't I wish the developers would use the tools available to them for
tuning.
Zilch, None, Nada. I live with what I get from the developers and I
have yet been able to get any changes made to the applications. This is
one of the problems you encounter where there is 2 distinct departments
All,
We are in transition here at my site. Our primary development tool
over the past few years has been a client-server tool named Uniface from
Compuware, which does an excellent job of protecting developers from
themselves. However, we are switching to Java, and moving more developers
John Kanagaraj wrote:
Greg,
The reason may be driven by the requirement of
'develop-within-this-deadline' for Developers, and
'get-this-query-to-respond-within-1-sec' for DBAs. The DBA's responsibility
(among others) is to run a well tuned system, the Developers' responsbility
is to
and your question is?
--- DENNIS WILLIAMS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
All,
We are in transition here at my site. Our primary development tool
over the past few years has been a client-server tool named Uniface
from
Compuware, which does an excellent job of protecting developers from
Rachel Carmichael wrote:
My last shop we had one programmer who not only expected me to tune his
SQL, he expected me to WRITE his SQL for me. I got emails I need a
query that returns this information from these tables.
This guy seems to be trying a new tactic these days: DBA mailing lists.
I wouldn't put it past him. But I don't recognize his name on any of
those questions :)
--- Stephane Faroult [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Rachel Carmichael wrote:
My last shop we had one programmer who not only expected me to tune
his
SQL, he expected me to WRITE his SQL for me. I got
is to develop a working product, and the two goals twain meet!
--
and the two goals twain meet
twain Pronunciation Key (twn)
n. adj. pron.
Two.
Perhaps you mean the two goals ner meet, as in ner the twain
shall meet? Gotta run, gotta catch a twain.
Oh, I guess I'm a little slow on Monday. I've enjoyed the discussion so far.
Very close to my situation.
Given my situation - i.e., we haven't had many SQL statement problems, but
expecting to receive more with Java, I'm wondering how I can get ahead of
the game. I have worked on a set of SQL
Title: RE: Do programmers tune SQL?
Our developers tend to be of the 'Meet the Holy Deadline at all costs' school and
tuning is rarely perfomed; we've had some major resource issues due to bad SQL.
Our lead DBA got the idea of revising our migration process so that all SQL code migrates
Dennis,
I've had to keep after the Java developers here to use bind variables
instead of literals. Apparently, it's much easier for them to construct
literal SQL. They now understand the importance and use bind variable
pretty much all the time.
A few months ago they started spawning multiple
make them use Java prepared statements.
I ended up having to turn cursor sharing to force to deal with the fact
that the programmers refused to use prepared statements and insisted on
literals.
--- Jack C. Applewhite [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Dennis,
I've had to keep after the Java
Names change to protect the innocent/guilty, maybe?
-Original Message-
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 10:19 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
I wouldn't put it past him. But I don't recognize his name on any of
those questions :)
--- Stephane Faroult [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I think there's a new myth: Programmers should tune SQL.
Harrison says his book is for developers, but consider what he actually
covers. Chapter 8, Tuning Table Access, covers many topics that are for
DBA's, not developers:
-- hit rate in the buffer cache
-- db_file_multiblock_read_count
--
I may open a can of worms - but don't intend to...
Sometimes DBAs and Sys Admins make tuning impossible or at least
very hard for developers.
I am a developer and do a lot of tuning of statements used by our
applications. I have, in our office, the luxury of DBA access to
databases and
Having worked mostly as a developer, the myth is that ALL programmers
should tune SQL. Poor programmers trying to tune a query just make it
unreadable. Good programmers should be able to tune, and depending on
the shop, they should be able to do it better than an DBA in some
situations (There
Seen that before. And it wouldn't be so bad except the DBA's were
complaining about the poor performing SQL. They blindfolded the developers,
tied their hands behind their back, to the point they could not even
generate an explain plan, much less do any tracing and use tkprof. And then
complained
/2002 12:28 AM
Please respond to ORACLE-L
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED]
cc:
Fax to:
Subject:RE: Do programmers tune SQL?
All,
We are in transition here at my site. Our primary
development tool
over the past
I agree with much of what you say, but, disagree (respectfully, of course
;-)) with other points. In line.
I think there's a new myth: Programmers should tune SQL.
I think they should have a core understanding of good SQL practices from a
performance standpoint, and, they should be expected
There was one guy at a site I used to work for that was interesting.
He wrote his own shell scripts and PL/SQL routines and did them well.
He was open to learning and all that good stuff. However, he felt
that it was the sys. admin's job to write the shell scripts and the
DBA's to write the
Are you going to use prepared statements or SQLJ?
With prepared statements get some standards in now
regarding bind variables (ok that is for both) and
to ensure they close their statements as soon as they
are done with them (to many open cursors error).
-Original Message-
WILLIAMS
Sent:
Well, I cannot speak on the book but you can tune SQL statements.
I think a developer should be aware of indexes and how they are used.
I think they should be aware of the CBO and how stats are needed.
How to generate their stats. I think rebuilding of indexes are
not beyond their realm of
Jared,
Gotta wean you away from that peaty stuff :)
Rachel
--- Jared Still [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I'll take a case of Lagavulin or Glenmorangie, you decide.
Email me off list for my shipping address.
Jared
On Friday 29 March 2002 18:03, Larry Elkins wrote:
Greg,
You *do*
Isn't this the DBA's eleventh commandment
Rachel's Mother wrote:
I'm wrong, I've always been wrong, I will always BE wrong, let's move
on from there.
As for the programmers I would rather write (right) the SQL
for
them as it means I don't have to deal with their SQL later.
And I write
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Rachel
Carmichael
I WISH I owned that website :)
as for the programmers well, it was a thought. Obviously not the
right one in this case, but it was a thought.
It was a good idea, thanks for throwing it out there. The
well now you'll have to let us know what the solution turns out to
be
--- Larry Elkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Rachel
Carmichael
I WISH I owned that website :)
as for the programmers well, it was a thought.
I moved from development to DBA, so now no one comes around and tells us
that 'such and such this is not possible in Oracle' .. or 'writing that kind
of code will take two weeks'.
Some developers love to tune, some aren't afraid to ask after
experimentation, some want us to do their work. Then
Of
Seefelt,
Beth
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2002 5:49 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Subject: RE: Do programmers tune SQL?
In my shop, 0 out of 3. Which wouldn't be so bad, but they also
show 0 interest in learning... and every time a new job goes into
production and takes 10
Larry,
Mine is Glenmorangie in a port finish. Write me offline for the address
:)
My last shop we had one programmer who not only expected me to tune his
SQL, he expected me to WRITE his SQL for me. I got emails I need a
query that returns this information from these tables. His boss set
him
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Rachel
Carmichael
Larry,
Mine is Glenmorangie in a port finish. Write me offline for the address
:)
Oh -- your poor programmers who have queries that don't perform in
production as they do in development? Have you tried
I WISH I owned that website :)
as for the programmers well, it was a thought. Obviously not the
right one in this case, but it was a thought.
enjoy the rain, I hear you guys are sending it our way
Rachel
--- Larry Elkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL
I'll take a case of Lagavulin or Glenmorangie, you decide.
Email me off list for my shipping address.
Jared
On Friday 29 March 2002 18:03, Larry Elkins wrote:
Greg,
You *do* see DBA's doing the bulk of the SQL tuning work in many shops. But
it's not necessarily because the developers, or
Greg,
The reason may be driven by the requirement of
'develop-within-this-deadline' for Developers, and
'get-this-query-to-respond-within-1-sec' for DBAs. The DBA's responsibility
(among others) is to run a well tuned system, the Developers' responsbility
is to develop a working product, and the
In my shop, 0 out of 3. Which wouldn't be so bad, but they also show 0 interest in
learning... and every time a new job goes into production and takes 10 hours to run,
its a database problem... ok, i'll stop ranting now...
-Original Message-
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2002 5:38 PM
To:
In my previous shop they all wanted to learn. Once I sent them all a
document on SQL tuning and one of the developers would just not leave me
alone. I did such and such and now its this much faster. I got that for
every SQL statement he did. The novelty eventually wore off and he stopped
Kim, What document did you send them?
- Original Message -
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2002 5:03 PM
In my previous shop they all wanted to learn. Once I sent them all a
document on SQL tuning and one of the developers would
Greg,
You *do* see DBA's doing the bulk of the SQL tuning work in many shops. But
it's not necessarily because the developers, or at least some them, can't,
or, that many of them don't care (and *many* of them never do give it a
thought). I've seen places where the developers begged for the
Of Seefelt,
Beth
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2002 5:49 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Subject: RE: Do programmers tune SQL?
In my shop, 0 out of 3. Which wouldn't be so bad, but they also
show 0 interest in learning... and every time a new job goes into
production and takes 10 hours
Its an internal document that some developed.
-Original Message-
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2002 5:43 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Kim, What document did you send them?
- Original Message -
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday,
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